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KickStarter Queen's Wish: The Conqueror - the Jeff Vogel Kickstarter

anvi

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I think the graphics look fine, but I only played one Spiderweb game before and it was too shallow. If I am going to play some semi 2d pixelart indie jank, it better at least have most of the AD&D spells. But whatever I played was a single character game so whatever. I will try this for the party combat, but I suspect it will be < KOTC and <<<<<<<<<< KOTC 2.
 

Eirinjas

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I think the graphics look fine, but I only played one Spiderweb game before and it was too shallow. If I am going to play some semi 2d pixelart indie jank, it better at least have most of the AD&D spells. But whatever I played was a single character game so whatever. I will try this for the party combat, but I suspect it will be < KOTC and <<<<<<<<<< KOTC 2.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Eschalon? That's single character with a weak magic system, but it's by Basilisk, not Spiderweb.
 

Mortmal

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compare these fugly graphics to the RPG Maker medieval expansion:

II3Lrri.png


Z7BCUFk.png


ss_66aab072f5ebbdd56b94e9ac58aa442be9933bd6.1920x1080.jpg


even the character models in RPG Maker look better :argh:
NGg0eix.png
Looks cool but i dont remember any commercial game using it.
 

Martyr

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compare these fugly graphics to the RPG Maker medieval expansion:

II3Lrri.png
Looks cool but i dont remember any commercial game using it.

iirc one of the dozens of Ellis Studios' games had a similar visual style. don't quote on me on that though, since I haven't played that game and only seen a few screenshots. Savage Bliss or something like that.

EDIT and highly OFF-TOPIC: funny thing, I just looked Ellis Studios up on itch.io and they've renamed themselves as "Lunatic RPGs" :D
and released a new game, which could at first glance be a weeaboo blobber: https://kieferd20.itch.io/shadow-hunters
the dev describes it as "a cross between the Elminage series (Wizardry) and Dragon Quest."

and the game that I meant was most likely this one: https://kieferd20.itch.io/sotg
DDFfOu.jpg

9TGPtM.jpg


much more low-res, but the same visual style as the RPG-maker pics in my other post. and tbh a million times better to look at than the crap Vogel shat out.
 
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HoboForEternity

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
the problem is vogel have no art sense whatsoever. he commissioned art based on his request and based on the video, we can clearly see the artist is pretty talented. the problem is not cost, but vogel's inability to make sense of a 2 dimensional space that looks good and combine sprites so that it feels like everything "belong" in 1 space. Queen's wish looks like mish mash of assets sewn together awkwardly that it feels 'flat'.

first problem is the switch to full top down. with isometric, it is easy to maintain the illusion of depth, due to isometric, in it's nature is to simulate a 3D space because of the view angle. so even with little details, it is easy to make it looks decent and not flat, as is the case with avadon/ nu avernums. in fact, the background in avadon / nu avernum looks really great. most of my issues are in the player assets/creatures that are animated awkwardly:

avadon-2-the-corruption-18474.jpg


the perspective switch and jeff's inability to art, makes alot of details lost. for example look at these scene:

QW%2BSS.jpg


there are few problems with this:

1. the building and terrain. first off, jeff opted a tile based background, that in creating the set, jeff use different tiles of textures, which is imo, very cheap and efficient. with 5 different textures you already can make a town. dirt, road, grass, building and roof. the problem is they make everything look flat. compared to a natural 2d drawn scenes that are drawn with the scene in mind and not rely 100% on tiles (they do, but not all, especially the edges or buildings) :

chrono-trigger-10.png


chrono-trigger-04.png


the biggest difference between jeff's game is EVERYTHING made of tiles, including the buildings that just don't translate well into terrain with tiles, then pasted a building sprite above it like chrono trigger's carnaval scene. plus in the second CT screen, the scene have alot of depth. it's just not flat terrain, you know there is a highest cliff, the middle cliff, and the ravine where the characters walk.

the second one, they opted for a more realistic avernum / avadon graphics style for top down, tile based background. like i said, in isometric, it can look decent, but not top down because of the style.

imo, if you want to make a tile based/ top down background, you choose for less detail/less realistic/cartoony textures like voidspire (plus the black outline on objects, etc they fit each other so it doesn't looks like someone put a sticker of chair on paper). if you look closer, it seems like some of the objects works. the fence don't look that bad, they mix well with the ground. the flower pot in front of the house also look decent. the most awkard objects are the buildings, the water bucket and the grass. i don't know why jeff put that grasses in. they look just so awkward. should have settled with green tile textures. again, with great art direction someone can salvage it, for example darker gradation in the bottom of the building wall tile. the bucket should be made more like the pot.

:
3CE525FF1A5623404E925817B3475B80B0BE80DB


which kinda the same, but look alot better because our brain perceive it as cartoons because i don't try to hide itself as drawings.

notice how the objects on jeff's screenshot don't feel like it belongs there at all. it just . . float. it is because alot of details are missing. no shadows, gradation, etc that indicate the object touch the ground. it is because the top down view and too much detail /realistic(at the same time lack polished details). it looks like bad photoshop job.

exile 1 looks alot worse, but it don't look out of place exactly because everything don't look realistic. we expect drawing and we got drawing.

19-00-exile1-021.jpg
 
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V_K

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at a Nowhere near you
The Queen's Wish screenshot you posted does have sprites that take up more than one tile, so it's not really that technically different from the Chronotrigger one.
As for "realistic" top-down aesthetics:

CLFmUY3XAAAhADt.jpg


dark-sun-ss4.png
 

HoboForEternity

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The Queen's Wish screenshot you posted does have sprites that take up more than one tile, so it's not really that technically different from the Chronotrigger one.
As for "realistic" top-down aesthetics:

again, the problem is also that vogel's stuff don't feel like they belong together. both the styles and the "finer" effects like shadow. notice how the top example, every objects have shadows. the tables, the cups on the table, the bar counter etc. it is still in the end, the result of dedicated artists working on that scene with one vision in mind. vogel hire artists who made individual assets (which i think on themselves, they look decent), but have no idea of how they tie together because it's vogel's job. vogel really have no idea to do it properly, hence the result.
 

passerby

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Vogel could have just kept Avernum remakes graphics and improve upon gameplay: enemy ai, AoE spells, expand ruleset, interactive surfaces D:OS style, more status effects, higher selection of spells, encounter design etc. and every fan would be happy.
 
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Eirinjas

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compare these fugly graphics to the RPG Maker medieval expansion:

Which begs the question:

If Vogel is really only interested in writing long (and interesting?) RPGs and not investing too much in visual presentation, then why not just use RPG Maker with the higher quality art assets & editing tools already available for it instead of reinventing his knobby-assed wheel all the time? I mean, for a successful veteran businessman of 25 years he sure doesn't seem logistically or economically-minded.
 

baud

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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
compare these fugly graphics to the RPG Maker medieval expansion:

Which begs the question:

If Vogel is really only interested in writing long (and interesting?) RPGs and not investing too much in visual presentation, then why not just use RPG Maker with the higher quality art assets & editing tools already available for it instead of reinventing his knobby-assed wheel all the time? I mean, for a successful veteran businessman of 25 years he sure doesn't seem logistically or economically-minded.

I was about to say no mobile version, but apparently it can be done since RPGMAKER MV, which was released in 2015. Perhaps he dislike the combat systems than can be used in RPGMAKER?
 

Darth Canoli

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If Vogel is really only interested in writing long (and interesting?) RPGs and not investing too much in visual presentation, then why not just use RPG Maker with the higher quality art assets & editing tools already available for it instead of reinventing his knobby-assed wheel all the time?

RPGMaker is shit, terrible battle system, hard-coded horrible sounds in MV, resources hungry ...
Some devs can turn this watered-down engine into wine through decades of experience, heavy scripting and talent but it's extremely rare, i know a couple of devs trying to do something good and original out of RPGMaker whom burned out or only released an extended demo after 5 years of work.
 

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Some devs can turn this watered-down engine into wine through decades of experience, heavy scripting and talent but it's extremely rare,
Thank you for mentioning me. :P

Seriously, you are right. RPG Maker is a bitch to work with for anything other than the basic JRPG combat. Everything is hardcoded in that engine, so to do something "unusual" with it, first you have to tear down its scripted engine, and then build it up again. Doesn't worth the effort to be honest.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Some of the biggest issues I have with Vogel's assets are textures that work for what he's trying to do.

Look at the two screenshots below:

ss_753b959306aaf1178e4b4f14286027235cbe6866.1920x1080.jpg


ss_4c16f55932e2a2c449ab65e6f3e230b0f659fafa.1920x1080.jpg


The first pic is just a drab combination of light wood and light stone textures. The second pic is bananas. We have light stone walls, light stone floors, light stone piles of...stuff? It just blends all into one big grey blob and they you have super neon green blobs everywhere. It looks bizarre.

Compare that to Avernum: Escape from the Pit (see below). The light gray color is back but look at the difference in color selection for the assets. Colors don't clash as bad nor do the colors bleed together where you can't tell what is going on. The textures in this pic are nicely done.

sulfras.jpg


The good news is that some of these issues can be addressed by modders. For example, the mod below makes Avernum feel like an actual underground area:

BEFORE

GQtE767.jpg


AFTER

9V3TYJs.jpg
 

Darth Canoli

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You got a few example of this?

I don't play much RPGMaker games anymore, i'd have to make an extensive search but i can think of Bonehead (project was on hold but it's in development again) and Rinet's Quest, both are work in progress.

There is two suikoden-like remakes which are decent/good and a lot more i forgot about.
 

Mustawd

Guest
You got a few example of this?

I don't play much RPGMaker games anymore, i'd have to make an extensive search but i can think of Bonehead (project was on hold but it's in development again) and Rinet's Quest, both are work in progress.

There is two suikoden-like remakes which are decent/good and a lot more i forgot about.


I'd say that there is very little in terms of concrete examples to point at when looking for complete/shipped RPGMaker games. There have been plugins developed to make RPGMaker more flexible (like an isometric view), but it's usually not ever brought together in a cohesive whole because most people using it aren't serious game devs.

That isn't to say you can't make a perfectly good game with the tools. It just has to be within the rails of the program or whatever your own scripting skills can do to customize it.
 

Darth Canoli

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There's also a lot of skilled Japanese dev teams whom makes good looking games with RPGMaker with fast walking speed and a decent battle system (mostly with older versions) but instead of trying to bank on their skills and trying to make something amazing, they just do the same thing over and over.

I guess they found their niche players and are happy with it, seems like Japanese players never get bored of grinding and playing games with the exact same engine, well, it's no great revelation, you can tell just by playing a couple of jrpg ...
 

baud

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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
He's done another interview:

https://www.gameskinny.com/hr5qq/yo...ariann-krizsan-talk-queens-wish-the-conqueror

So Vogel's not tired of making games, he's just tired of making that game in particular.

A lot of the reason I’ve been saying I’m so tired is because, with this game, I really wanted to prove I’m not a hack. I’m not burned out. I’m not out of ideas. I’m not just sort of coasting on past glories. With this game, I wanted to leave everything on the field. And it’s been exhausting.

I’ve been working on this game on and off for five years. I first had the idea for this game five years ago.

Artists

I’m actually pretty good at managing people. I have to manage a million freelancers all the time. I’m constantly giving people directions. My freelancers tend to really like working for me. They do it for a long time.

:troll:

At least I think he's good at managing deadlines, payements, the back-and-forth, communications... Just not good at managing art.

About Epic

GS: You’re not putting it on the Epic Games Store?

JV: No
Well, you know, I’m not going to lie. If Epic walked up to us and offered us a gigantic bag of money so we didn’t have to worry about earnings for a couple of years, I’d take that deal. Every indie would take that deal. This business is terrifying. Everyone here is three bad days from going out of business. Of course everyone’s going to take the Epic money bag.
It’s just that I’m not good enough for it. Our games are too niche and too low-budget to get into that club. But you know, no hard feelings.

There are a few bits about his next game.
 

fantadomat

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About Epic
GS: You’re not putting it on the Epic Games Store?

JV: No
Well, you know, I’m not going to lie. If Epic walked up to us and offered us a gigantic bag of money so we didn’t have to worry about earnings for a couple of years, I’d take that deal. Every indie would take that deal. This business is terrifying. Everyone here is three bad days from going out of business. Of course everyone’s going to take the Epic money bag.
It’s just that I’m not good enough for it. Our games are too niche and too low-budget to get into that club. But you know, no hard feelings.
There are a few bits about his next game.
Buahahaha,he is a massive libtard cuck lol. The funny part is that his games move more units than most trash on EPIC.
 

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