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Quests and filler combat is what kills RPGs

Siobhan

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The whole concept of quests/subquests should be reformed from ground up.
Agreed, but it won't happen. I think the popularity of RPGs in the modern age of gaming is due to them having become the gaming equivalent of "A for effort". Just work your way through this laundry list of things and you'll be fine. Don't worry, we'll tell you exactly what to do, now be a good boy and do your homework. Doesn't matter if you know what you're doing as long as you tried.

You could make quests a more subtle affair without explicit instructions, add a noticeable risk/reward trade-off (you get rare skill X, but lose access to faction Y), and even throw in some trap quests that always end badly because as a smart player you should have known that they are suicide missions. But that would be anathema to the RPG autopilot, which is what 90% of RPG fans like about this genre (even if they won't admit it to themselves).
 

Dorateen

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You could make quests a more subtle affair without explicit instructions, add a noticeable risk/reward trade-off (you get rare skill X, but lose access to faction Y), and even throw in some trap quests that always end badly because as a smart player you should have known that they are suicide missions.

If this is the ideal, and I agree with that, then we don't need to reform quests from the ground up, but go back to how they emerged in older computer role-playing games. It's amazing what the removal of an automated quest journal would do to change the perception of quests, and make it feel more like the player engaging with an adventure rather than following a list of chores.
 

HansDampf

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But then players would have to take notes because it would be too much to remember everything. Soon they would wonder if the game couldn't take notes automatically. And we're back to checklists and quest journals.
 

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
If this is the ideal, and I agree with that, then we don't need to reform quests from the ground up, but go back to how they emerged in older computer role-playing games. It's amazing what the removal of an automated quest journal would do to change the perception of quests, and make it feel more like the player engaging with an adventure rather than following a list of chores.

The problem with removing the journal is that you simply forget all the quests (or other types of goals if we go with removing or reforming quests) after a while, especially with long RPGs that you play over the span of many days or weeks - and that is assuming you do not pause a game for a while or you are one of those who only has limited amount of time per week to play. Personally i often pause games for weeks or months (mainly due to being distracted by other games :-P) and i am able to "pick up" what was going on by looking at the journal and talking to surrounding (to where i saved) NPCs.
 

Dorateen

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If this is the ideal, and I agree with that, then we don't need to reform quests from the ground up, but go back to how they emerged in older computer role-playing games. It's amazing what the removal of an automated quest journal would do to change the perception of quests, and make it feel more like the player engaging with an adventure rather than following a list of chores.

The problem with removing the journal is that you simply forget all the quests (or other types of goals if we go with removing or reforming quests) after a while, especially with long RPGs that you play over the span of many days or weeks - and that is assuming you do not pause a game for a while or you are one of those who only has limited amount of time per week to play. Personally i often pause games for weeks or months (mainly due to being distracted by other games :-P) and i am able to "pick up" what was going on by looking at the journal and talking to surrounding (to where i saved) NPCs.

This requires the player to write things down. It puts the responsibility on the player, how much and what information to record and involves them deeper in the quest structure.
 

V_K

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If this is the ideal, and I agree with that, then we don't need to reform quests from the ground up, but go back to how they emerged in older computer role-playing games. It's amazing what the removal of an automated quest journal would do to change the perception of quests, and make it feel more like the player engaging with an adventure rather than following a list of chores.

The problem with removing the journal is that you simply forget all the quests (or other types of goals if we go with removing or reforming quests) after a while, especially with long RPGs that you play over the span of many days or weeks - and that is assuming you do not pause a game for a while or you are one of those who only has limited amount of time per week to play. Personally i often pause games for weeks or months (mainly due to being distracted by other games :-P) and i am able to "pick up" what was going on by looking at the journal and talking to surrounding (to where i saved) NPCs.

This requires the player to write things down. It puts the responsibility on the player, how much and what information to record and involves them deeper in the quest structure.
It's not like a to-do list-style quest journal is the only option. Something like the journal in Morrowing, Realms of Arkania or Magic Candle 2-3 - one that just keeps record of the information you've been given - is perfectly fine. You can even make the journal into a minigame, combining the clues to arrive to new information Blackwell-stlye.
 

Bad Sector

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This requires the player to write things down. It puts the responsibility on the player, how much and what information to record and involves them deeper in the quest structure.

Well, personally i am not fan of anything that requires me to take my focus (and hands) away from the keyboard and mouse, so if there are any notes they better be in-game. And sometimes it is easy to miss information that may become important later.

I *do* like games that provide the ability to take notes (especially map notes), but only in game, as this is sometimes necessary (i wrote a small local-only wiki program to use with Steam's overlay for note-taking in the few cases i needed notes and the game didn't provide).

It's not like a to-do list-style quest journal is the only option. Something like the journal in Morrowing, Realms of Arkania or Magic Candle 2-3 - one that just keeps record of the information you've been given - is perfectly fine. You can even make the journal into a minigame, combining the clues to arrive to new information Blackwell-stlye.

Yes, agree, though if it provides a lot of text (Morrowind's journal quickly becomes many pages long) it does need both a good UI and a way to organize that information that allows easy "jump" to relevant pieces. And preferably some form of searching.
 

V_K

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Yes, agree, though if it provides a lot of text (Morrowind's journal quickly becomes many pages long) it does need both a good UI and a way to organize that information that allows easy "jump" to relevant pieces. And preferably some form of searching.
MC3 was just perfect in that regard - it had a setting on how detailed you wanted your notes to be: from only the most crucial stuff to every single conversation you had.
 

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
MC3 was just perfect in that regard - it had a setting on how detailed you wanted your notes to be: from only the most crucial stuff to every single conversation you had.

MC3 is Magic Candle 3? I haven't played those games. I see them referenced a lot by others so perhaps i should try them at some point (wishlisted them on GOG just in case). Did it hide the more detailed information or it was never recorded? For example if i had the setting to "only crucial stuff" could i change it to "all details" and see past conversations?

Thinking about it, i remember when i was playing Ultima Underworld i was using the map note feature to add generic notes at the side of the map, including what i perceived were "quests", so assuming the game was designed with that in mind i'd be fine even with such a manual approach.
 

jewboy

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Yesterday a women in Elder Scrolls Arena asked me to go to the nearby temple to fetch an amulet for her and so I went and got the amulet and brought it right back to her just like she asked me to and I got eighty gold for it and I liked it.

In a well designed game you should be able to rape her instead. Then make her into a naked slave to do your own bidding. Put her in chains and make her into a prostitute. That is the sort of thing that makes games fun. Most RPG quests are like fucking jobs. Yes preteens like jobs. I"ve seen them get excited about washing dishes. But older players just find it dull. You need to give the player a reason to want to do something. Other than just grinding for xp or loot which is a totally lame copout and a sign of an incompetent game designer. Why would I want to fetch her fucking amulet? Am I her employee? Her slave? Fuck her. I'd rather cut out her heart and make it into a wall hanging just for asking that.

Games first and foremost should be about fun and 'quests' are not fun. Stories are fun though and significant C&C is fun if the consequences are interesting. I don't know how or when the idea of story turned into the idea of quests in RPGs. How the fuck did that even happen? It's just bad and lazy game design to assign the player jobs to do or tasks to complete because you cannot think of any other way to keep the player busy. They lack imagination and should probably be flipping burgers rather than designing games.

I like RPGs for the strategic battle chess like combat and if possible a storyline that is at least slightly compelling and suspenseful. Suspense is really the key. You need to build intrigue and curiosity and a sense of mystery. PS:T did this right. Most RPG designers are not even trying to do that. They follow the well worn formula of combat plus a list of jobs or tasks to assign to the player. They don't think about why the player should want to do those jobs.

In Planescape, there is a quest about getting 3-4 items for some old hag in a hut and it's basically run around and take them and repeat 3-4 times.

One of the most memorable quests for me.

Wasn't that the quest that MCA intended to be a parody of fetch quests in other RPGs? A way of trying to show how tedious and boring and pointless they are? That was really the exception to the rule with PS:T. That game was not at all about finishing some list of jobs. It was about solving a compelling mystery and even a philosophical puzzle about your own existence. MCA understood that doing jobs for people whether they are paid or not is just tedium. If you want people to have fun you need to give them more than that.

I agree with Bester 100% and the solution is not to have quests or filler combat. Instead you have a compelling and suspenseful story or at least snippets of one and complex and tactical turn based combat.
 
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Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Less quests, more events.

Apparently I was not clear enough :
- Less demands from npcs who usually explain why you don't have a choice, or that you can refuse for a flat loss of xp/content/whatever.
- More situations where your char/party gets entangled in, requiring action.

Here's a fix for the issue of "why would my char help npcs but why would I not as a player".

This works for me. I think the motivation thing is symptomatic of a broader problem, which is that the archetypal CRPG protagonist is an adventurer-in-search-of-adventure with no local connections or obligations. Maybe you’re the chosen one, but to any random NPC you run into you’re just a disinterested third party.

Developers sort of expect you to play as a knight-errant or, failing that, to do all the side quests for metagame reasons.

Give the player an actual job, or at least a built-in set of social obligations, and suddenly you have a reason to do shit that may not be directly connected with the main story. For example, Tyranny has a lot of flaws, but the core conceit is great: you’re not just a man on a mission, you’re a man with a very particular job in a fairly hierarchical organization. There aren’t that many side quests, but IIRC they all relate to either to your official duties as a fatebinder or your relationships with each faction (really, part of your unofficial duties as a fatebinder). And there are consequences for derilection of duty, although for the most part they come at the very end.

The origins in DA:O unlock some side quests and give you additional reasons to do other quests, although that game was also full of fetch/fedex quests.

Kingmaker—you quickly become the territorial ruler, so sorting out local problems is your business.

Piranha Bytes doesn’t start you off with a job, but they always make you get one. Start off as a useless scrub with few/no connections -> do some number of scutwork side quests for a faction so that they’ll hire you. This is also a great example of interconnected side quests: when Gothic or Elex or Risen says here are five quests, do any three of them if you want to join up and advance the main story.

This is one of many reasons I’m really looking forward to playing as a police detective in Disco Elysium. Maybe I’m a diligent cop, maybe I’m a corrupt cop, maybe I just want to impress my partner—one way or another that’s a lot of reasons to do side quests.

tl;dr I think a lot of this can be solved by giving the PC an occupation other than drifter/murderhobo, either from the start or from very early in the story.
 
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I think any sort of open world-ness ruins RPG quests. It invariably becomes 50 shades of fetch quests like most of Witcher 3.

I think Fallout 1, 2 and AoD got it right, large map but each area is a world of its own.

And another thing, each quest has to be unique and handcrafted, if two look alike devs have failed.

Fallout 1 & 2...are a sort of open world-ness.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I think any sort of open world-ness ruins RPG quests. It invariably becomes 50 shades of fetch quests like most of Witcher 3.

I think Fallout 1, 2 and AoD got it right, large map but each area is a world of its own.

And another thing, each quest has to be unique and handcrafted, if two look alike devs have failed.

Fallout 1 & 2...are a sort of open world-ness.

New Vegas is a genuinely open world game with great quests, many of which connect (directly or indirectly) to the story’s central conflict.
 

anvi

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Some people hate puzzles. I find combat much better but the combat mechanics have to be good. If each filler battle is pressing a few buttons and they die, then I will likely uninstall. But I hate quests and reading the dialogue even more. I don't think there is a perfect solution. If you make it combat some people will hate it, make it quests, I hate it, make it puzzles, some other people hate it.
 
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i disagree with the premise.
a fun game is fun, if i enjoy its basics i'll enjoy its grind (to a certain degree, of course).
give me enough tools, enough enemy variety, and i'll keep myself entertained for hours, days, months! because every situation will need to be faced with different choices, sometimes even just different sequences will do.

quests are supposed to be directions in a world open to be explored, also even if it's not explained it's not like it isn't clear that this random peasant doesn't mean "dude, i can barely wield a pitchfork, i don't see many other people around here who can spark light by their hands or is rich and trained enough to wear an armor, so don't act all -why me- on me because you know why you. piss off now".
 

Siobhan

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because every situation will need to be faced with different choices.
Does it though? Off the top of my head I can't even think of an RPG that forces you to make heavy use of its consumables in specific situations. Like, there could be a crypt where those 100s of herbs you collected will finally be useful because you can brew 10 gallons of holy water to AoE the overwhelming zombie hordes. But the way it usually works you'll just hack'n'slash a bit harder than you usually have to hack'n'slash, no change of strategy required. There could be an entire quest devoted to creative uses of the telekinesis spell, or a mission where your goal is to raid as many temples as possible in a single night, which encourages you to prioritize your targets instead of blindly sweeping every nook and cranny (ideally, you would have gathered intel and map data the day before). As I said, I can't think of any RPGs that deliberately design their quests to mechanically mix things up along those lines. Some dungeon crawlers and blobbers come close, but those rarely have quests in this explicit sense, just parts of the dungeon that are designed around a specific idea.
 

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