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Misunderstanding the NES

Gibson

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Siobhan

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Alright, what's everybody's favorite hidden NES gem? My pick is Kabuki Quantum Fighter. I'd put it in the same tier as Journey to Silius, Holy Diver, and Guardian Legend, i.e. amazing stuff. But somehow it has stayed much more obscure than those. It plays like a mix of Ninja Gaiden and Sunsoft's Batman, with some very intense platforming in later stages.
 
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There are dozens: Conquests of the Crystal Palace, Jackie Chan's Action Kung Fu, Otocky, Layla, New Ghostbusters 2, Splatterhouse: Wanpaku Graffiti, Summer Carnival 92: Recca, Vice Project Doom, Gun Nac, Trojan, Bio Miracle Bokutte Upa, Bucky O'Hare, Gum Shoe, Ganbare Goemon 1 and 2, the Twinbee games, Moon Crystal, King Kong 2
 

Siobhan

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Good stuff. Some of those I'd say are pretty well-known by now, e.g. Bucky O'Hare, Ganbare Goemon, and Gun Nac. But Layla is new to me and looks interesting.
 

Optimist

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Kickmaster was fucking amazing. Look at this poster, just... look at it.

s-l1600.jpg

I'm also a big fan of Codemasters' lineup. Dizzy, Big Nose, Ultimate Stuntman were all great, but they're hardly hidden gems. Battletank was pretty bitchin' as well, first simulator I've ever played.
 

Falksi

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I think he makes some valid points TBH. Yeah he goes OTT with them, but his point about time is one I agree with in particular.
 

Siobhan

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Don't try to salvage this thread with serious answers.
Changing the topic is the only reply this video deserves. But if we're supposed to just shit on the linked video: why are fairness and lack of frustration such holy cows for "video game designers"? And why is their notion of fairness so specific? Poker isn't fair, if you have a shit hand it's much harder to win. But the odds even out in the long-term, so it is fair over repeated plays. Old school video games have a similar notion of fairness: a single run in isolation may have unfair moments like a sudden enemy spawn knocking you back into a pit. But as a human being you are capable of pattern recognition and memorization (one would hope), so this won't happen to you the next time. As you master the game, it becomes incredibly fair because old-school games tend to be very deterministic affairs with simple patterns. And because the game didn't have mini-tutorial sections, you don't have to deal with the baby stuff on every playthrough, making for a much better experience at expert-level play.

I don't think any other hobby has such a constant push towards the elimination of all potential discomfort. Certainly not sports, not painting, not even freaking cross-stitching. I always wonder what drinks would be like if they were subject to the video game design logic. Fuck that dry red with its heavy barrique and the unusually long finish, have this Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc that tastes like every other Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc and will be gone from your palate after a mere second. Sure, the former isn't for everybody, that doesn't mean it's a flawed design. I just don't know what it is about video games that attracts this particular mentality that doesn't arise with other hobbies. Why are people willing to pay for tennis lessons and practice for months to play, but the mere thought of a video game not trying to make the ride as smooth as possible is heresy?
 

Siobhan

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his point about time is one I agree with in particular.
That one makes the least sense because games have gotten longer, not shorter. Carefully repeating a 3 minute level segment is apparently an unreasonable time sink, but mindlessly running through the wilderness for 5 minutes on the way from one dungeon to the next is a-okay. It's such a weird double standard. Modern games are many things, but they're definitely not respectful of the player's time.
 

JDR13

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Man I played hundreds of NES games back in the day, but you guys still managed to name a bunch of games I've never even heard of.
 

Eirinjas

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his point about time is one I agree with in particular.
That one makes the least sense because games have gotten longer, not shorter. Carefully repeating a 3 minute level segment is apparently an unreasonable time sink, but mindlessly running through the wilderness for 5 minutes on the way from one dungeon to the next is a-okay. It's such a weird double standard. Modern games are many things, but they're definitely not respectful of the player's time.

I sunk just over 50 hours into Legends of Eisenwald before abandoning it for just this reason. That game was so disappointing.
 

Falksi

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his point about time is one I agree with in particular.
That one makes the least sense because games have gotten longer, not shorter. Carefully repeating a 3 minute level segment is apparently an unreasonable time sink, but mindlessly running through the wilderness for 5 minutes on the way from one dungeon to the next is a-okay. It's such a weird double standard. Modern games are many things, but they're definitely not respectful of the player's time.

Top point, but to me that's only really become the trend since around 2013/14. Before that there was quite a nice balance of linearity & exploration still in games like Witcher 2, DA:O & ME1.
 

Urthor

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
My favourite console was the Nintendo 64

It was the first, and so far only home gaming console to specifically cater for my needs. Nintendo designing a game controller that can only be used by people born with three hands such as myself really lit up my childhood.

After years of discrimination I'd suffered because of my third appendage, to truly experience what it was to have a controller that needed exactly three hands to operate was so wonderful.
 
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Eirinjas

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Contra/Probotector and Super Mario 2/3 were the best NES games, IMO.

'Contra' on NES is the best Contra game ever made. It's even better than the arcade game it's based on.

'Super Mario Bros 2' is the best SMB game ever made. After SMB2 they turned Mario into a goddamn Furry.

'Zelda II: The Adventure Of Link' is also the best Zelda game ever made. Not just my opinion, it's a scientific fact!
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

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THOU HAST DONE WELL IN DEFEATING THE M. WYVERN

Only real gamers understand that joy.
 

flyingjohn

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nes is crap. it's just arcade games with worse graphics. who cares.

You are confusing the master system with nes.
Nes had a large selection of game genres from strategy games(most koei early titles were localized for it) to a good selection of puzzle and jrpg's.
Hell it even had a small selection of adventure games ports from other platforms(shadow gate,maniac mansion,etc)
 

Tehdagah

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Changing the topic is the only reply this video deserves. But if we're supposed to just shit on the linked video: why are fairness and lack of frustration such holy cows for "video game designers"? And why is their notion of fairness so specific? Poker isn't fair, if you have a shit hand it's much harder to win. But the odds even out in the long-term, so it is fair over repeated plays. Old school video games have a similar notion of fairness: a single run in isolation may have unfair moments like a sudden enemy spawn knocking you back into a pit. But as a human being you are capable of pattern recognition and memorization (one would hope), so this won't happen to you the next time. As you master the game, it becomes incredibly fair because old-school games tend to be very deterministic affairs with simple patterns. And because the game didn't have mini-tutorial sections, you don't have to deal with the baby stuff on every playthrough, making for a much better experience at expert-level play.
You described what's unfair: an enemy popping randomly and knocking the player into a pit. It's just dumb and unnecessary. The reason old games were filled with these things is a mix of inexperienced developers and weak hardware.
 

Sigourn

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his point about time is one I agree with in particular.
That one makes the least sense because games have gotten longer, not shorter. Carefully repeating a 3 minute level segment is apparently an unreasonable time sink, but mindlessly running through the wilderness for 5 minutes on the way from one dungeon to the next is a-okay. It's such a weird double standard. Modern games are many things, but they're definitely not respectful of the player's time.

I'd say it's much less about the time spent and more about how much you enjoy said time.
 

Siobhan

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You described what's unfair: an enemy popping randomly and knocking the player into a pit. It's just dumb and unnecessary. The reason old games were filled with these things is a mix of inexperienced developers and weak hardware.
I usually try not to give in to the codex temptation of ad hominems, but seriously, that's one damn pointless reply that doesn't engage with the argument at all. The game isn't being unfair, it's teaching you something, and in the next run it will test whether you learned your (memorization) lesson. Just like it makes not sense to evaluate a card game based on a single round of play, these games should be evaluated based on the experience over multiple runs, because that's what their design is built around. And they're very fair from that perspective. It's no different from a rogue like, which teaches you important lessons by killing you.
 

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