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Left 4 Dead

HanoverF

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Well there wouldn't be piles of ammo every 30 feet in a slow zombie game. And there would be melee weapons.

And yes in the third scenario you press a button and fight horde/tank/horde/tank hop on a plane. The maps are pretty nice, I wish they had come up with some original endings.
 

DefJam101

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You'd have to change the entire game, though. Slow zombies are scary because they build suspense. They build suspense because you can feel your life slowly being whittled with each bullet you fire hopelessly into the encroaching mob of rotting flesh. The point isn't to have a mass of slow fat 'Kwan zombies for you to fire a chaingun at until they all execute their Doom 1-era death animations. You're supposed to be the underpowered, unskilled, frightened, and hopelessly outmatched survivor trying to do whatever he can to last as long as he can.

Essentially that's why Zombie Panic was so good to anyone who bothered to play it for more than 5 minutes; it was actually fun to lose. You could tell you were going to die several minutes in advance, so that when you did have miraculous escapes- often running down a hallway frantically screaming on your mic to hold the door open for a few more seconds, firing your last 10 pistol rounds into the carrier form on your tail- it felt so much more rewarding. You always *just barely* surviving, so that when you died it didn't feel cheap. Why? Because you knew what was happening, you were fully aware of the choices you were making. You weren't just shooting zombies and hoping that you survived, you were planning routes, watching ammo counters, remembering ammo spawns, looking for flashlight beams, all while trying to either stay silent and unnoticed or unload as much firepower into the approaching mass of zombies as possible. The slower pace allowed for more interesting player interaction. It did this by avoiding the consolized view of player interaction; which is essentially pushing buttons at specific times to accomplish a task, what varies is the frequency of the button pushing and the location.


Zombie Panic:

You spawn. You're in a fucking closet, with a pistol, twenty rounds, a crowbar, and it's pitch black.

You leave the closet, do you go left or right? What do you remember that spawns down there? Do you want to try and go deeper towards the zombie spawn to grab a rifle or a magnum? Do you want to try and group up with players? Where? When?

So you got a weapon. Got any ammo? Where is the ammo? Hear any zombies coming yet? If they do, how are you gonna stop them? If you panic, where will you run to? Do you see any other players yet? Where are they going? How fast can you make it there? Do they have ammo you can use?

You met up with some guys, you're headed across the map to barricade a house. All of a sudden three zombies and a carrier hop out and block your path, stumbling towards you. Where do you go now? Will you stay together or split up? Do you have weapons or not? Fight? Run? How good are the other players, will they chicken out and run? What's the next closest safe spot? Will it remain safe forever?

You get to a small shitty safehouse with one other player, barricade lightly, and shut off your flashlight. Do you stay here or try to make it into the strong fortress with 5 players in it, all stocked with ammo. How far away is it? How much health do I have? Stamina? Can I carry this shotgun and still make it? That rifle? If I do decide to stay here: Did any zombies see me enter? Where would they try to attack from? What's my escape plan if they do? If I panic, what weapon should I take with me?

Another player tells you to get to the safehouse before they barricade. Do you go? How does it look outside? Flashlight or no flashlight? What should I tell him over the mic? Which entrance is easiest to go through? And so on and so on until you die or you survive.


Left 4 Dead:

You spawn. Do you pick a shotgun or a rifle? You run down the street, shoot some zombies. Horde comes, one guy falls down mid-fight. Do you run back and let him bleed out, potentially saving your own life, or try to fight and save him before he dies? Even then, he'll be waiting in a closet several hundred feet away. So he dies. Take his gun, or no? You find pills, do you take them (24 permanent HP) or does your teammate take them (40 temp HP)? Someone falls, you help them up. Someone get's grabbed by a smoker, you fire a few shots in their direction. The speed of the zombies coupled with the lack of barricading disallows any true tactical thinking. When you die it's almost impossible to go back and analyze your mistakes because you never really made any decisions. You got some baddies thrown at you and you shot them before they reduced your HP to zero. If you die, 90% of the time it is because they reduced your HP to zero before you shot at them enough times to send them up to the land of multi-headed dicks. The other 10% is when your team mates are clinically retarded. It's like comparing the game tree complexity of Chess to Checkers. It's just on an entirely different level altogether.


Is it fun? Of course it is; put 4 people together, give them guns and beer, and they will have a blast. That formula has been working since beer and guns were invented (beer and arrows, too). It's not fun because it's interesting, though. It's fun because you're together with four friends and alcoholic beverages.
 

HanoverF

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People on Steam be racist yo, whenever I enter a game with 3 people I'm always stuck as Lewis.

One thing I don't like is that the players are interchangeable, I wouldn't mind all the other shortcomings if there was one or two special things you could do as a character to help you survive. The Biker could break down locked doors for safer paths or build some small barricades with heavy shit, the old army guy could rig explosive traps. Zoey could flash her tits or something to perk the other three up :P
 

Shoelip

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Sep 27, 2006
Messages
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TO be politically correct and at the same time horribly stereotypical, wouldn't it make more sense to have her be better at healing? And Louis can run faster. :lol:
 

kingcomrade

Kingcomrade
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Oct 16, 2005
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Here's what I got from the demo: it's a boring linear corridor shooter except there are other people around and sometimes it spawns more zombies than normal.

Can't believe they're charging 50 bucks for it.
 

HanoverF

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Versus is fun, tho one team usually dominates, and half the people only seem to want to be infected and leave when it's their turn, of course it seems to even the playing field for the team that's getting butt raped by letting them spawn the tank right at the start of the mission.

Can't believe they're charging 50 bucks for it.
Yeah I don't get that, finished all campaigns (last one finale was waiting for an APC) Takes about an hour for each one, the single player is a joke. It should be tf2 priced there's so little content. Have they ever said if they're going to release more campaigns, or is it all left to modders?
 

The_Pope

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Nov 15, 2005
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DefJam101 said:
Is it fun? Of course it is; put 4 people together, give them guns and beer, and they will have a blast. That formula has been working since beer and guns were invented (beer and arrows, too). It's not fun because it's interesting, though. It's fun because you're together with four friends and alcoholic beverages.

This is pretty much why I got the game. I consider it pretty mediocre, but mediocre + coop is honestly more fun than most decent games. Plus it gives me something I can play with people who suck at games.
 

Kingston

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I lack the wit to put something hilarious here
Cooped it on #fallout. So much fun. The whole AI director randomness thing really does add to replayability. The most fun in the game is probably when all hell breaks loose, everyone fucks as bad as possible, everything goes to shit and you lose the game.

E.g. a horde of zombies are coming at you from all around. You try to shoot one group but accidentally hit your friend, so he's down. You chuck a molotov but end up burning yourself. A smoker lickitongues one of your friends and drags him through the fire. Soon its just you and your friend. You shoot a boomer which ends up exploding on your friend, the horde takes him down. Then its just you and you manage to run around for a while, you almost make it to respawn closet but a hunter jumps on you.

So very many scenarios of fucking up.
 

Peregrine

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Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
12
I'm really enjoying the full game - the cooperative aspects make it a lot of fun, and I particularly enjoy the last part of each scenario - where you are stuck in some location and have to hold off a horde of zombies until help arrives. Lots of fun.
 

udm

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Kingston said:
Cooped it on #fallout. So much fun. The whole AI director randomness thing really does add to replayability. The most fun in the game is probably when all hell breaks loose, everyone fucks as bad as possible, everything goes to shit and you lose the game.

Agreed lol. There are so many random events to mess up your day, just like the youtube vid with the "plan gone wrong". Even with ammunition, you still can get screwed when you run into a witch and tank simultaneously. Plus, both tank and witch always equate to "o shit" moments
 
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The Versus has got to be my favourite. A well coordinated attack by the infected is a thing of beauty. Dragging away a survivor as a smoker, and having the boomer puke on him as he slides along the ground, there are no words.
 

Shoelip

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One time I'd just gotten past the pawn shop safe house with three other players and we were in the big courtyard with the elevator, and the tank popped out, right next to the gas station. I fired into the gas dispensers, and set off a chain reaction that buried the tank and burned it to death.

Then we went up the lift and everyone died because no one would advance with me down the hole in the warehouse.

The next time it came from a different direction, so we tried to lure it into the gas station. It knocked down poor Zoey right when it got there, so as we all fled her player sacrificed himself to blow the station, taking the tank and Zoey with it. Her autoshotty ended up on the roof.
 

deshields538

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Got the game and versus is pretty good.

Managed to become a pain in the ass for the survivors when I was a hunter by crouching behind a witch and getting them to shoot at me and thus the witch too.
 

Cuther

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Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
52
I think this game is excellent. Sure, it is fast paced (but I don't see this as a flaw...) but it sure can be challenging at the Expert difficulty level.

it is actually pleasant to finally play something that is really hard yet manages to not be frustating for the sake of being frustating (I applaud their choice of letting you see the other survivors behind the walls). It is playable but also pretty hardcore and unforgiving. Enemies and friendly fire hurts like hell.

it's not "scary" (nothing fictional is, of course, unless you are a fag or something) but it can be tense. For example, once I killed single-handedly a tank while my entire team was wiped out. I had 1 hp left (an idiot on my team shot me, I was on painkillers, and the effect ended shortly after killing the big monster) and I started slowly crawling to the rescue of my comrades, while hearing the various bosses and then the screams of an incoming horde attack.

Also there is a "domino effect" present. Even at expert things can be pretty smooth with a well coordinated team (i usually play with two or three other real-life friends)... but a single mistake can always deteriorate the situation and to everybody dead or incapacitated.

In conclusion, pretty cool game.
 

Ion Flux

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Project: Eternity
DefJam101 said:
You'd have to change the entire game, though. Slow zombies are scary because they build suspense. They build suspense because you can feel your life slowly being whittled with each bullet you fire hopelessly into the encroaching mob of rotting flesh. The point isn't to have a mass of slow fat 'Kwan zombies for you to fire a chaingun at until they all execute their Doom 1-era death animations. You're supposed to be the underpowered, unskilled, frightened, and hopelessly outmatched survivor trying to do whatever he can to last as long as he can.

Essentially that's why Zombie Panic was so good to anyone who bothered to play it for more than 5 minutes; it was actually fun to lose. You could tell you were going to die several minutes in advance, so that when you did have miraculous escapes- often running down a hallway frantically screaming on your mic to hold the door open for a few more seconds, firing your last 10 pistol rounds into the carrier form on your tail- it felt so much more rewarding. You always *just barely* surviving, so that when you died it didn't feel cheap. Why? Because you knew what was happening, you were fully aware of the choices you were making. You weren't just shooting zombies and hoping that you survived, you were planning routes, watching ammo counters, remembering ammo spawns, looking for flashlight beams, all while trying to either stay silent and unnoticed or unload as much firepower into the approaching mass of zombies as possible. The slower pace allowed for more interesting player interaction. It did this by avoiding the consolized view of player interaction; which is essentially pushing buttons at specific times to accomplish a task, what varies is the frequency of the button pushing and the location.


Zombie Panic:

You spawn. You're in a fucking closet, with a pistol, twenty rounds, a crowbar, and it's pitch black.

You leave the closet, do you go left or right? What do you remember that spawns down there? Do you want to try and go deeper towards the zombie spawn to grab a rifle or a magnum? Do you want to try and group up with players? Where? When?

So you got a weapon. Got any ammo? Where is the ammo? Hear any zombies coming yet? If they do, how are you gonna stop them? If you panic, where will you run to? Do you see any other players yet? Where are they going? How fast can you make it there? Do they have ammo you can use?

You met up with some guys, you're headed across the map to barricade a house. All of a sudden three zombies and a carrier hop out and block your path, stumbling towards you. Where do you go now? Will you stay together or split up? Do you have weapons or not? Fight? Run? How good are the other players, will they chicken out and run? What's the next closest safe spot? Will it remain safe forever?

You get to a small shitty safehouse with one other player, barricade lightly, and shut off your flashlight. Do you stay here or try to make it into the strong fortress with 5 players in it, all stocked with ammo. How far away is it? How much health do I have? Stamina? Can I carry this shotgun and still make it? That rifle? If I do decide to stay here: Did any zombies see me enter? Where would they try to attack from? What's my escape plan if they do? If I panic, what weapon should I take with me?

Another player tells you to get to the safehouse before they barricade. Do you go? How does it look outside? Flashlight or no flashlight? What should I tell him over the mic? Which entrance is easiest to go through? And so on and so on until you die or you survive.


Left 4 Dead:

You spawn. Do you pick a shotgun or a rifle? You run down the street, shoot some zombies. Horde comes, one guy falls down mid-fight. Do you run back and let him bleed out, potentially saving your own life, or try to fight and save him before he dies? Even then, he'll be waiting in a closet several hundred feet away. So he dies. Take his gun, or no? You find pills, do you take them (24 permanent HP) or does your teammate take them (40 temp HP)? Someone falls, you help them up. Someone get's grabbed by a smoker, you fire a few shots in their direction. The speed of the zombies coupled with the lack of barricading disallows any true tactical thinking. When you die it's almost impossible to go back and analyze your mistakes because you never really made any decisions. You got some baddies thrown at you and you shot them before they reduced your HP to zero. If you die, 90% of the time it is because they reduced your HP to zero before you shot at them enough times to send them up to the land of multi-headed dicks. The other 10% is when your team mates are clinically retarded. It's like comparing the game tree complexity of Chess to Checkers. It's just on an entirely different level altogether.


Is it fun? Of course it is; put 4 people together, give them guns and beer, and they will have a blast. That formula has been working since beer and guns were invented (beer and arrows, too). It's not fun because it's interesting, though. It's fun because you're together with four friends and alcoholic beverages.

You, my friend, have inspired me to play Zombie Panic. DL'ing source mod now.
 

flabbyjack

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the area around my keyboard
You need to be able to build barricades... also I expected the city maps to be more wide open non-linear/sandbox maps. Guess that's impossible if they are using HL2 source engine.

Wouldn't that be tight tho? Zombie simulator 2020(c).
 
Self-Ejected

ScottishMartialArts

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Messages
11,707
Location
California
flabbyjack said:
You need to be able to build barricades... also I expected the city maps to be more wide open non-linear/sandbox maps. Guess that's impossible if they are using HL2 source engine.

If you close a door behind you, it automatically locks out the zombies. So although you can't build a barricade, the experience of having undead slowly bashing a hole through the door which you fire through is definitely in the game.

Also, the commentary mode mentions that they had originally planned to have open maps, but in play testing they found that after only a few games, players would develop their own optimal route through the map which they would then follow nearly every time they played it. In light of that, they decided to develop more traditional linear maps.
 

DefJam101

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Ion Flux said:
DefJam101 said:
ZP has gone downhill recently, but there are still a few decent servers left.

Prolly correlated with Left 4 Dead's release. Bummer.

No no no, the player base is much larger than ever before. It's the gameplay that has been declining, less about resource control and teamwork, more about shooting skill and luck. Zombies also have a very hard time, now.
 

Herbert West

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Messages
1,293
ScottishMartialArts said:
Also, the commentary mode mentions that they had originally planned to have open maps, but in play testing they found that after only a few games, players would develop their own optimal route through the map which they would then follow nearly every time they played it. In light of that, they decided to develop more traditional linear maps.

I respect valve greatly for playtesting every single small thing to death... although that thing you mentioned is rather big :)
I've seen some videos of well-coordinated teams and it looks like it's great fun, especially since I dig the B-class zombie movie mood. However I won't be getting it in the forseeable future, since I know nobody who plays it and teaming up with random retards is usually more frustrating than fun.
 

abstract

Scholar
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
444
Any tips on beating the Rooftop Finale on Expert in single player? The retarded AI companions keep doing stupid things like lighting themselves on fire, running straight into a horde of zombies or running into my line fire. They're also pretty useless when fighting the tanks - they'll mostly just stand there firing at it until it mauls them into the ground. The farthest I made it was the end of the 4th wave; it's easy to keep the regular zombies away by hiding in some corner (eg. in the stairwell of the radio tower) and just punching them away as they come at me, but then the second tank runs in and fucks me up.
 
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The island of misfit mascots
I really with that someone would make a 'Dawn of the Dead' (original Romero version) mod. Not for the mall setting - I could care less about that. But for a TF2-style (maybe not class-based, but definitely team-play and capture-point) 'survivors vs bikie raiders' game, with the zombies being controlled by the computer and attacking both sides. Like in the movie, you could have mechanics where one team, if losing, might choose to open the security doors to an area, allowing the zombies to flood in and kill everyone, hence stopping the enemy advancement at the cost of inflicting a can of whoopas onto your own team as well. To me it sounds like fun mechanics - basically a standard team vs team shooter, but where you've also got to watch for zombies trying to surround you.
 

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