Diablo IV

[Shadenuat]

What a lulzy strawman. That point wasn't about the viablity of melee at all, it was a discussion about "homemade" vs. netripped builds. But I guess since you lacked a response to my point you instead chose to ignore it, hoping no one noticed.

As condescending as ever. But I guess "u must know your DraQs"?

Writing this post:

Talking about viability and funs of melee, Grunker tells about his Spectral Shield Throw build. This is basically ideal post about PoE.

And crying about "condescension". For reaaaaaaaaaaalzzzzz brooooooo

Except that I didn't write it to make fun of "leet Grunker", I keep in my mind what began the discussion: you cannot "melee" in PoE.
You can call it "melee", you can make builds which can kill things with statstics, but it would not ever feel like melee, because the basics of a "melee" is simply lost in that game completely, even ever more so than in Diablo 2, where it was already bad with screen clearing meta and characters like Javazons. In PoE, everyone is a Javazon. (or you die.)
I mean surely you know that spectral shield is a fucking meme partially due to this.
And yes, melee IS harder than ranged. And mapping is easier with cookie cutter whatever day of the week builds that do not rely as much on statsticks. Which is an unfair disparity, they made a "melee patch" ffs.

From the melee builds I did see that worked it was this one skill that made you attack like fifteen feet away from monsters or it was a whole bunch of aura stacking/screen clearing nonsense.

if you don't like this, doesn't matter if you are good at the game or not, because you just won't ever like the gameplay.

 

[Grunker]

Viper Strike is a pretty fucking great skill. And that's just talking "great skills." You were talking "viable."

 

[Grunker]

Didn't know about Shield's meme-status. I avoid the PoE-community like the plague except for select streamers, and I never have Twitch chat turned on.

 

[Shadenuat]

Viper Strike is an example of how melees survive(ed?) in PoE: physical converted to other types of damage. Hence the "melee patch" which tried to do something for actual physical damage builds.
Like, last time I rolled a char (Raider), I had a choice between:
physical (I suck)
frost blades or some whatever elemental (ez)
or physical but use statsticks to convert it to elemental (I suck until I find good statstick)

that is what they tried to fix in their melee patch I take it.
of course, neither behaves like actual melee since I ended up Vaal Reaving whole screen.

 

[Grunker]

That's some moving of goalposts there mate. First, your problem is that melee doesn't feel like melee because it you don't go into melee and do melee things. So I present you a skill that does just that fine, and now the problem is that the damage type isn't good enough..?

No one is saying melee isn't worse off than casting. I'm just saying the idea that melee isn't "viable" is plain wrong.

I'm not even sure why I'm arguing this though, since baseline, I don't enjoy melee much. But that's because I don't really enjoy namelocking in games like this. I didn't enjoy that in D1 or D2 either. I personally think these games are way more suited to designing around stuff that don't namelock. If I had to design an action RPG myself, I'd design the entire thing around fluff where some guy hitting enemies with a sword (i.e. classic melee namelocking) wasn't even a thing.

It's just that, that being said, you can namelock in PoE today, and it's way more viable than it was just 2 or 3 years ago, where it was also doable.

 

[Shadenuat]

It is not the difference in BUILDS as you push it. It's the difference in whole playing styles. (although some parts of the system lagging behind does not help)

The difference in PoE between rolling some caster and creating one in some another style (mainly melee) can only be understood through astrophysics. Because for first one, it is about as difficult as inserting skills in sockets in correct order and you're rolling. Which was my last (and only one) cookie cutter build by the way (with chain lightning) whom I quickly abandoned in fury of how straightforward things were. I can't say the amount of mistakes was different between these characters for example; a mistake would be not to invest in lYfe and invest into doritos instead; yet one of characters with no effort just autopilot, why is that so?

I am totally fine with some builds failing, I love grognardism; but then if you state that the game is about that, then all characters should have something difficult about executing them right, otherwise you trivialize your whole amazing charbuilding system.

I've never seen a community as obsessed with FotM.

Try DakkaDakka.com.

 

[Grunker]

Yes if it was balanced. But it's not. It squarely emphasizes asset complexity and diversity and doesn't give two shits about balance. Which is exactly what you nutters were calling for in our PoE-discussions.

But then when this whole balance-debate started, I did point out that the first huge proponent of game balancing was Gygax in AD&D (ironic since AD&D was about the least balanced system ever released) and that in grognard-circles, back then, everyone complained about the lack of balancing in P&P. And so when design paradigms shifted and designers started balancing their games by doing the only thing they could, grognards turned balance into the foremost enemy. Bad faith would be calling the shifting priorities a result of contrarianism, but even if that were the case, I suspect a part of it is just failing to identify the fact that systems design as any other thing in the world has trade-offs.

Sorry for the tangent but my point is that as usual debating with you is like trying to hold a cup of melted butter - once you respond to one point, there's no ackknowledgement, it's just on to the next one. It should be completely obvious that balance goes to shit when you have so many systems. Like, how do you balance boss HP when a shitty build can do 100DPS and a top tier munchkinned one can do a gazillion? You can't.

That's PoE's clear weakness. I totally agree with you. However like 3.5 it's the price it pays for allowing total freedom along with a fuckton of assets.

 

[Shadenuat]

What kind of balance would you even use to level the field between two very different playing styles, if your idea of difficulty is an ever increasing physical presence of monsters and deadly projectiles on the screen? Would you make a character who wants to stand in the projectiles and wave his axe invulnerable or something?

I mean it's not just a PoE problem, this is a complaint you can find going as far away as D1, D2 and I believe also D3. And in D3 they like, seriously banalced shit.

 

[Farewell young Prince into the night]

Diablo IV's trailer has all the subtlety of a hand grenade. Maybe that's what the edgy folks want nowadays.

Unfortunately, I think it is impossible that Activision-Blizzard can deliver a game even remotely as interesting and dark as Diablo I.

 

[Shadenuat]

Meanwhile ima having some dumb fun

melee necro with (in futur) 20/20 skeletons on /players 3. feels oddly balanced.
now approaching Duriel.

 

[ArchAngel]

Viper Strike is an example of how melees survive(ed?) in PoE: physical converted to other types of damage. Hence the "melee patch" which tried to do something for actual physical damage builds.
Like, last time I rolled a char (Raider), I had a choice between:
physical (I suck)
frost blades or some whatever elemental (ez)
or physical but use statsticks to convert it to elemental (I suck until I find good statstick)

that is what they tried to fix in their melee patch I take it.
of course, neither behaves like actual melee since I ended up Vaal Reaving whole screen.

Melee patch didn't do shit. All it did is make Cyclone cover whole screen (and a bit more in some builds). Their melee league was actually Cyclone league. Then in last league they nerfed Cyclone again and left it at that.

The problem about melee was never namelocking or lack of damage. It was that enemies in endgame do too much damage and there are no 100% effective way to mitigate that and still be able to kill enemies without falling asleep. Only way is to kill them before they kill you. So people just make ranged DPSers and worry about defense only for those few enemies that manage to live longer than 1s.

 

[Shadenuat]

This sounds pretty solid. Who is David Kim?

Amazing. See at 6:30



"However, we want to clarify that in Diablo IV, power doesn’t come mostly from items. We want to have a good mix of power sources: characters naturally get stronger as they level up, skills have ranks that increase power, talents provide specific playstyle choices and additional character power, and of course items grant power and meaningful choices as well."

nice video btw.

grow wide, not tall (cannot be frozen, mf, etc. I can add immunities - crude, sawyermaddening, but at least you are busy adapting your build in some other way than just numbers growing), and the power curve he painted makes sense to me.
good explanation of D2 itemization too.

Melee patch didn't do shit.

can't say I am surprised. And I don't think de-escalation is something which would happen in PoE.



wowzies

i never knew or plain forgotten Normal can spawn a PI.
who due to Stoneskin is not totally penned with Amp.
this is why even knowing they're meh I rolled with skeleton mages, but didn't expect it to pay out so quickly.

 

[Grotesque]

If Ridley Scott showed the painting Nighthawks by Edward Hopper to the crew to convey the mood for the film he wanted to make, the people working on Diablo 4 should watch this movie

Spoiler

And because of some parts of the cinematic D4 trailer, at least one person did.

 

[Cryomancer]

As for Path of Exile, do you know why there is PoE in the first place? Everyone hated D3 and PoE got crowdfunded by the old diablo fanbase. Like everyone hated D&D 4e who was heavily inspired on wow(3.5e was also inspired by video games, but was mostly 90s rpg's) and 5e despite being much more streamlined than pathfinder, returned to his roots. I really wish that D4 will gonna be the new 5e...

 

[Shadenuat]

S0rcererV1ct0r

did u do dis? https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2679423/page/1
or mebbe D2 fans due to D4 emerging awaken from slumber?

Some of the reactions are amusing, like that "properly built characters focus on 1 damage type" or "mechanics from the 90s".

But PoE can't have immunities; gameplay is too fast at this point to pay attention and much content is not based around ability to avoid monsters; the game is simply not structured in a way to support hard counters. (although it could probably support more soft ones like proximity field)

 

[ArchAngel]

As for Path of Exile, do you know why there is PoE in the first place? Everyone hated D3 and PoE got crowdfunded by the old diablo fanbase. Like everyone hated D&D 4e who was heavily inspired on wow(3.5e was also inspired by video games, but was mostly 90s rpg's) and 5e despite being much more streamlined than pathfinder, returned to his roots. I really wish that D4 will gonna be the new 5e...

That is not why there is PoE. PoE was being made before D3 was even announced. PoE was being made because Blizzard took so long to make another H&S after D2 so these guys from New Zealand wanted to try to make their own Diablo like.

 

[Irata]

Blizzard may bend the knee to the CCP, but Path of Exile is owned by the CCP. Checkmate.
Funny how Blizzard has put themselves in the position of the underdog though. Not that Diablo 4 won't sell well, but will the players stay?

 

[Shadenuat]

Are they though? Judging by these dumbfunny reaction videos family dad mom kid and dog played it (D3), everyone did.

 

[Irata]

I don't know how Diablo is perceived by Joe Gamer, but it feels to me like Path of Exile is the current king of ARPGs. I don't doubt that Diablo 4 will sell well (man is not a learning animal), but will it dethrone PoE?

 

[Shadenuat]

Well in the final stand between 2 RPGs, usually the one with more powerful character building wins; so my bets are still on PoE I guess.

 

[Cryomancer]

did u do dis? https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2679423/page/1
or mebbe D2 fans due to D4 emerging awaken from slumber?

Some of the reactions are amusing, like that "properly built characters focus on 1 damage type" or "mechanics from the 90s".

But PoE can't have immunities; gameplay is too fast at this point to pay attention and much content is not based around ability to avoid monsters; the game is simply not structured in a way to support hard counters. (although it could probably support more soft ones like proximity field)

No, i only posted once on PoE official forum once and my idea got completely ignored ( https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2678121 )

I would love to see immunities but also think that D2 exagerated with immunities( and should have implemented more dual damaging skills. Eg. molten boulder deals fire + physical damage on D2. Why Sorceress meteor deals only fire? I belive that around 1% of mobs should have a single immunity and if you are immune to fire, you are weak vs cold.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, can you imagine a novel written by the post wow aaa rpg design logic???

A master necromancer saying to his apprendice how he become a master

Master -"i was defending the city. The undead attacking the city was too strong. One skeleton mage manages to incinerate my fire golem and i lost him, luckly, one of then died by my poison, so i found a amazing big and sharp axe and a amazing boot. That boot boosted my IQ by 646543*10²³ points and the big and sharp axe was so deadly that all of my skeletons become exponentially stronger. Then a single poison cloud casted by myself was destroying all enemy undead. By no reason took a long time since i could only use this deadly poison once per a arbitrary amount o time. After i destroyed the skeleton army with my deadly poison, i found this amazing gloves who also boosts my iq by 765376537635 points and managed to get revenge upon my fire golem who was burned to death"
Apprentice - Interesting, but where should we start to pratice and study?
Master - Study? Practice? Are you crazy? Every necromancer inthe world knows everything about necromancy and can animate the same amount of skeletons. The unique way to make your skeletons stronger is by finding a bigger and shaper axe. Now stop practicing your skills and go find a bigger and sharper axe"

 

[Shadenuat]

Eg. molten boulder deals fire + physical damage on D2. Why Sorceress meteor deals only fire?

Cause she's op as fug and also can combine multiple elements very easy into a single build, compared to Druid. Flame Wall alone shits on every druid Fire spell; and then if sorc can't kill something, she can just lol tele around it.

 

[Catacombs]

i only posted once on PoE official forum once and my idea got completely ignored ( https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2678121 )

You're a Lord on the PoE forum but a Sorcerer here?

 

[Cryomancer]

You're a Lord on the PoE forum but a Sorcerer here?

I usually use both nicks, depending the place

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

I feel like you can have a ton of character customization but if you can't make something as basic as melee characters (despite having the tools suggesting you can do so) then there's something fundamentally wrong in your game.