Incline Best necromancy on RPG's

[Cryomancer]

As for Lichdoom, i don't know why in many fantasy settings, necromancers chose lichdoom over other paths to eternal life. Except on World of Darkness, because on WoD, becoming a vampire destroys the spark of enlightenment that allow the mage to use TRUE magic. Vampies are also HARD capped by his sire's generation. By far, the worst thing about vampirism. You can be dominated by a low gen vampire to do his bidding... But look to Elder Scrolls or D&D. Why anyone would choose Lichdom over vampirism?

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The typical (UN)life of a Lich necromancer on D&D : Lose the human form, all capacity to feel pleasure, have your soul trapped in a phylactery and have to constant feed the phylactery living a (UN)life of eternal tedium until you become consumed by maddness or lose your corpse becoming a DEMI lich. Wanna learn ancient knowledge? With your appearance, it will be hard to convince non undead mages to deal or teach you anything. Wanna have fun? Too bad, you can't fell anything. And the process to become a Lich involves bargaining with Orcus and other high rank demon lords. Also costs a insane amount of money Ahh and you need to be able to cast 9th circle spells.

The typical (UN)life of a Vampire necromancer on D&D : Have to avoid the sun(Control weather can solve this problem if you can cast circle 7 spells) and have permission to enter another house. That is practically the unique drawback. As longs you have a well hidden coffin, you can even after defeated return to the coffin in mist form and regen faster than a phylactery can produce another body. You also don't need to feed the coffin nor need to bargain with powers that will threat you like a pawn for eternal life. Can just use the CONTROL UNDEAD scroll and with 5 Hit Dices(not become a vampire spawn), command the vampire to sire you and then walk into the sun(to not be his slave). As a vampire, you can enslave up to 2*your HD worth of servants, can dominate nobles and ascend socially, can maintain a human appearance, can have pleasure with your dominated concubines, can earn money and hide in society far easier. With charm and influence, you can make a city dependent on you and extremely unlikely that a cleric vampire hunter will try to kill you.

Talking about "metagame", if you have a sorcerer with 6 CON and 20 CHA, recalculating your hit points from -2*d4 per level to +5*d4 per level is a huge buff in your survivability even without considering mistform and everything else. Vampires also gain Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4 while Liches gain Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2, so the vampire sorcerer assuming that he was a little above average strong(12 STR) could rival the strongest humans in the world(18 STR)
sources http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm and http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm


Count Strahd von Zarovich lives far better than any Lich.

 

[laclongquan]

very high level mage = lich. so the issue of other mage teach you = moot

 

[Harthwain]

But look to Elder Scrolls or D&D. Why anyone would choose Lichdom over vampirism?

First question: how hard is to obtain vampirism over lichdom?

Second question: do the people who aspire to lichdom care about life as such or are more concerned about the acquisition and collection of knowledge? If the latter is true, then it stands to reason they don't care about the quality of their immortality.

Third question: is it really that much better to have vampirism over lichdom? I imagine bloodlust being like a drug addiction. Usually the desire for blood overtakes you, because you want more and more of it. However, most RPG system don't model addictions too well. On the flipside, I imagine being a lich is like being a machine of sorts: you don't have any strictly biological fuctions, save for your ability to reason and cast spells.

 

[Storyfag]

But look to Elder Scrolls or D&D. Why anyone would choose Lichdom over vampirism?

Vampires are much more dependant on the living than liches, in general.

Not all D&D iterations have the "feed phylactery" stuff, and even those that do don't make it nearly as bothersome as having to run around in search of blood.

Plus, vampires actually need to sleep in their coffins. Liches only need to rest to regain spells, otherwise they can be active 24/7

 

[Alex]

As for Lichdoom, i don't know why in many fantasy settings, necromancers chose lichdoom over other paths to eternal life. Except on World of Darkness, because on WoD, becoming a vampire destroys the spark of enlightenment that allow the mage to use TRUE magic. Vampies are also HARD capped by his sire's generation. By far, the worst thing about vampirism. You can be dominated by a low gen vampire to do his bidding... But look to Elder Scrolls or D&D. Why anyone would choose Lichdom over vampirism?

-------------------

The typical (UN)life of a Lich necromancer on D&D : Lose the human form, all capacity to feel pleasure, have your soul trapped in a phylactery and have to constant feed the phylactery living a (UN)life of eternal tedium until you become consumed by maddness or lose your corpse becoming a DEMI lich. Wanna learn ancient knowledge? With your appearance, it will be hard to convince non undead mages to deal or teach you anything. Wanna have fun? Too bad, you can't fell anything. And the process to become a Lich involves bargaining with Orcus and other high rank demon lords. Also costs a insane amount of money Ahh and you need to be able to cast 9th circle spells.

The typical (UN)life of a Vampire necromancer on D&D : Have to avoid the sun(Control weather can solve this problem if you can cast circle 7 spells) and have permission to enter another house. That is practically the unique drawback. As longs you have a well hidden coffin, you can even after defeated return to the coffin in mist form and regen faster than a phylactery can produce another body. You also don't need to feed the coffin nor need to bargain with powers that will threat you like a pawn for eternal life. Can just use the CONTROL UNDEAD scroll and with 5 Hit Dices(not become a vampire spawn), command the vampire to sire you and then walk into the sun(to not be his slave). As a vampire, you can enslave up to 2*your HD worth of servants, can dominate nobles and ascend socially, can maintain a human appearance, can have pleasure with your dominated concubines, can earn money and hide in society far easier. With charm and influence, you can make a city dependent on you and extremely unlikely that a cleric vampire hunter will try to kill you.

Talking about "metagame", if you have a sorcerer with 6 CON and 20 CHA, recalculating your hit points from -2*d4 per level to +5*d4 per level is a huge buff in your survivability even without considering mistform and everything else. Vampires also gain Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4 while Liches gain Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2, so the vampire sorcerer assuming that he was a little above average strong(12 STR) could rival the strongest humans in the world(18 STR)
sources http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm and http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm


Count Strahd von Zarovich lives far better than any Lich.

Lichdom is kind of an obvious choice. If you are careful with your phylactery, you are going to be harder to kill than a vampire. By the time you can become a lich, you should be able to build your own demi-plane, which makes hiding and protecting the phylactery even more effective. Also, different from a vampire who must feed on blood regularly, the lich has absolutely no need for contact with the living whatsoever, unless it needs them to power some spell or ritual or magic item. You mentioned feeding the philatrecy, but by 2e rules at least, there is no such need. And going by any later edition would just be introducing decline into the game (like having spellcasting depend on charisma, haha what a silly idea).

The end result is that the lich can be left alone for thousands of years it can spend solely researching magic and creating magic items, building its power away from peering eyes. So, to answer your question, lichs and vampires can even be seen as opposite ends of an spectrum. The vampire embraces the animal nature of the human to the point it rejects a higher calling. Of course, it will show itself as refined and cunning, but he is actually bound by blood in a carnal existence that can't really bring meaning to his (un)life. He corrupts those he touch with a mockery of what it is to be alive.

The lich, on the other hand, is the other extreme. He denies his physical reality, to the point of using different bodies whenever he dies. He is able to cut off his contact from society completely, to the point that it becomes more and more alien. D&D makes the mistake of almost validating the lich's view, it has the alien demi-lich as the remains of a successful lich, and it is possible to find even good liches who do the same in order to guard the world from evil. But if you take that away and rather make the lich's endeavour frustrated as well, you can have a nice contrast between the two, since they both reject what it means to be human for an ideal that exists solely in their minds. Both embrace error, but one by excess (the vampire embraces the animal nature to the detriment of the spiritual one) and the other by lack (the lich strives for a purely spiritual existence, to the denial of its animal nature). Now, from the point of view of mages, who usually seek inhuman power that is beyond "lesser creatures", the lich is an obvious thematic match. Of course you can have fun with doing the opposite, like Strahd was, but it should be obvious why liches would be the first thought anyone would have.

 

[Theldaran]

Vampires are edgy and that sells, therefore is what mattered to Mr. Rein-Hagen.

 

[Cryomancer]

very high level mage = lich. so the issue of other mage teach you = moot

The average vampire lich is stronger than the average vampire mage by a reason. Become a lich is far harder. You need to be at least able to craft circle 9 spells and have like 200k gold to be a lich, while a vampire, a lv 5 sorcerer/wizard can become easily...

econd question: do the people who aspire to lichdom care about life as such or are more concerned about the acquisition and collection of knowledge? If the latter is true, then it stands to reason they don't care about the quality of their immortality.

Third question: is it really that much better to have vampirism over lichdom? I imagine bloodlust being like a drug addiction. Usually the desire for blood overtakes you, because you want more and more of it. However, most RPG system don't model addictions too well. On the flipside, I imagine being a lich is like being a machine of sorts: you don't have any strictly biological fuctions, save for your ability to reason and cast spells.

Yep, but as longs you have servants to feed upon, a very charismatic sorcerer vampire can manage it easily you will not be in a blood frenzy.

Plus, vampires actually need to sleep in their coffins. Liches only need to rest to regain spells, otherwise they can be active 24/7

Yep. That is a HUGE vantage.

the time you can become a lich, you should be able to build your own demi-plane, which makes hiding and protecting the phylactery even more effective.

Nice answer but i disagree with it. The phylactery NEEDS to be in the same plane that you are, otherwise, it can't work properly. On M&M VII, you need to constant be near your Lich Jar.

The end result is that the lich can be left alone for thousands of years it can spend solely researching magic and creating magic items, building its power away from peering eyes. So, to answer your question, lichs and vampires can even be seen as opposite ends of an spectrum. The vampire embraces the animal nature of the human(...)Both embrace error, but one by excess (the vampire embraces the animal nature to the detriment of the spiritual one) and the other by lack (the lich strives for a purely spiritual existence, to the denial of its animal nature). Now, from the point of view of mages, who usually seek inhuman power that is beyond "lesser creatures", the lich is an obvious thematic match. Of course you can have fun with doing the opposite, like Strahd was, but it should be obvious why liches would be the first thought anyone would have.

Yep. A Wizard outcast will probably choose to become a Lich while a Charismatic Sorcerer will probably chose vampirism.

Vampires are edgy and that sells, therefore is what mattered to Mr. Rein-Hagen.

Yep. Here is a HUGE advantage of Lichdom. Way less teenager girls writing fanfics about you.

 

[Alex]

(...snip)

the time you can become a lich, you should be able to build your own demi-plane, which makes hiding and protecting the phylactery even more effective.

Nice answer but i disagree with it. The phylactery NEEDS to be in the same plane that you are, otherwise, it can't work properly. On M&M VII, you need to constant be near your Lich Jar.

(snip...)

Well, that of course depends on the setting; or more likely, to DM decision. If I was DMing, I would probably allow it, or maybe determine it depends on how the phylactery was built (maybe you need to add astral projection to it in order to cross planes without the phylactery). Either way you would reanimate a body in the same plane as the phylactery if your old one was destroyed.

 

[Cryomancer]

Other problem with phylactery is that if for eg you bargained to Orcus to obtain the knowledge to make the phylactery and he took the phylactery from you, you are now his slave. And will be until you are destroyed or manage to recover your phylactery. A vampire coffin can be easily replaced.

 

[laclongquan]

Vampire mage is too easily suppressed by light-related spells like Sol scorching orb, 3rd circle. With no easy counter to such things.

 

[Cryomancer]

Vampire mage is too easily suppressed by light-related spells like Sol scorching orb, 3rd circle. With no easy counter to such things.

A individual vampire? Sure. But if the vampire can have a lot of SERVANTS, reach the vampire will not be easy. Also, you don't insta detect a vampire. He can pass as a human far easier than a Lich. And a phylactery costs around 150k gold. Think on how many defensive equipment a vampire can have with this amount of gold. Ring of Counterspells can counter this spell ( https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ring_of_Counterspells )

So yes, a vampire has way more weakness than a Lich. BUT a intelligent vampire can counter his weakness.

 

[laclongquan]

Who would go against a vampire mage mano-a-mano? A dumbass, is who.

A mage, which by definition is intelligent, would go after such specimen with plenty of helps. More warriors as meatshields, more mages as helpers, and most likely paladin+cleric. Because they are going against an evil predator upon men, is why. You should always look to paladins for helps against vampires.

Sol'sSearing Orb is a 3rd circle spell, so a good mage can cast two or three. A cleric can use Turn Undead on servants (ghouls, ghosts...) but save their 3rd level spells for boss. And Paladins' Smite Evil work especially well on them, up close and personal.

Vampire's weakness against the sun is too obvious. As such, go against them in high daylight bring with you plenty of advantages.

 

[Norfleet]

However, most RPG system don't model addictions too well.

Most RPGs feature player characters who are apparently addicted to healing and mana potions. While there may not be a SYSTEM for it, characters are absolutely addicted to the stuff and cannot go through their day without it.

Yep. A Wizard outcast will probably choose to become a Lich while a Charismatic Sorcerer will probably chose vampirism.

Now I'm picturing that "Chad Vampire vs. Virgin Lich" image.

 

[Cryomancer]

More warriors as meatshields, more mages as helpers, and most likely paladin+cleric. Because they are going against an evil predator upon men, is why. You should always look to paladins for helps against vampires.

Sol'sSearing Orb is a 3rd circle spell, so a good mage can cast two or three. A cleric can use Turn Undead on servants (ghouls, ghosts...) but save their 3rd level spells for boss. And Paladins' Smite Evil work especially well on them, up close and personal.

Again animate object + permanency can give to you a "army" of animated spears, hammers, crossbows with poisoned bolts(...). You don't need to use only undead. Control weather also can solve the sun problem. Again, vampires has more weakness BUT spellcasting can negate most of his weakness

While there may not be a SYSTEM for it, characters are absolutely addicted to the stuff and cannot go through their day witho

VtMB had a system where starving vampires are extremely more prone to frenzy AND if you are a weak blood sorcerer tremere, frenzy s the worst thing that can happen. And taking damage make you more prone to frenzy.

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Anyway, purchased the TESO new map DLC only due the massive discount. I hated it. Only DA:I managed to implement a worst type of """"necromancy""""

DA:I is a single player mmo with all mmo BS. Vampires/Liches on Daggerfall. This type of artstyle is far more immersive than the "carnavalesque" mmo design...

 

[laclongquan]

More warriors as meatshields, more mages as helpers, and most likely paladin+cleric. Because they are going against an evil predator upon men, is why. You should always look to paladins for helps against vampires.

Sol'sSearing Orb is a 3rd circle spell, so a good mage can cast two or three. A cleric can use Turn Undead on servants (ghouls, ghosts...) but save their 3rd level spells for boss. And Paladins' Smite Evil work especially well on them, up close and personal.

Again animate object + permanency can give to you a "army" of animated spears, hammers, crossbows with poisoned bolts(...). You don't need to use only undead. Control weather also can solve the sun problem. Again, vampires has more weakness BUT spellcasting can negate most of his weakness

Control weather is 8th circle spell. If you are going against a 15-16th level vampire mage, day/night is the least of your problem. My tactic is for vampire mage of 10th and lower level.

 

[Funposter]

But look to Elder Scrolls... Why anyone would choose Lichdom over vampirism?

It depends on the stain of Vampirism in TES - Vampires in Morrowind, for instance, are incredibly limited in terms of their ability to move around unnoticed and find it near-impossible to interact with the public at large since their faces are so disfigured by the disease. Barring some Telvanni who are happy to deal with you, and Mages Guild members who at best tolerate you, a Vampire in Morrowind is pretty much stuck lurking in tombs and wandering the night so it's not all that different to being some magical skeleton hanging around in a tomb somewhere. Assuming that Vampires can use Illusion magic to hide their true form, lore from ESO (lmao)[url] states that Liches can do the exact same thing. The power of a Vampire is also limited by its bloodline, so if you're a wizard or necromancer seeking to attain ultimate power, you're shit out of luck if you actually got attacked by some brutish Quarra.

It also seems to me that there's an inherent cap on how powerful a Vampire can become, but maybe this is just because Vampirism is an actual game mechanic and Lichdom is left to our imaginations.[/url]

 

[Cryomancer]

Control weather is 8th circle spell. If you are going against a 15-16th level vampire mage, day/night is the least of your problem. My tactic is for vampire mage of 10th and lower level.

Yep. You are right. I was assuming someone capable of casting circle 9 spells, because in order to be a Lich, you need to be at least able to cast circle 9 spells. I was assuming that the wizard in question CAN fullfil all requirements for Lichdoom and is deciding between Lichdom or Vampirism

See at 5:40 here https://youtu.be/TwCk_HKsPM8?t=341

And there are other requirements that i assume that the char fulfill like having the feats to craft the phylactery, having the gold, time, etc. Of course the average Lich is far stronger than the average vampire. Because you can have lv 5 Vampires but can't have lv 16 Liches

It depends on the stain of Vampirism in TES - Vampires in Morrowind, for instance, are incredibly limited in terms of their ability to move around unnoticed and find it near-impossible to interact with the public at large since their faces are so disfigured by the disease. Barring some Telvanni who are happy to deal with you, and Mages Guild members who at best tolerate you, a Vampire in Morrowind is pretty much stuck lurking in tombs and wandering the night so it's not all that different to being some magical skeleton hanging around in a tomb somewhere. Assuming that Vampires can use Illusion magic to hide their true form, lore from ESO (lmao) states that Liches can do the exac...anic and Lichdom is left to our imaginations.

Yep. In TES, you have tons of types of vampirism but IMO someone able to become a Lich can use a blood of a less awful type of vampire to "sire" him.

 

[Tao]

Lore wise in d&d vampires are not really you character per se. You lose your soul unlike a lich, and a soul is everything in d&d. Vampires also have a lot of restrictions like the crossing rivers, the need to have dirt from you grave in your coffin, etc. plus they are undead, so they are very weak to a whole tree of magic and some more where a lich is almost inmune to everything.

I'm a fanboy of vampires, i love to roleplay as them, but in d&d lichdoom is the best option by far if you care about power and knowledge instead of social agency.

But tbt nowdays is pretty much flavor because a high level mage can just make clones, make a wish, true polimorph, move his soul around, craft prolong life potions, etc.

 

[Cryomancer]

Lore wise in d&d vampires are not really you character per se. You lose your soul unlike a lich, and a soul is everything in d&d. Vampires also have a lot of restrictions like the crossing rivers, the need to have dirt from you grave in your coffin, etc. plus they are undead, so they are very weak to a whole tree of magic and some more where a lich is almost inmune to everything.

Where they say that you lost your soul? I used CTRL + F on forgotten realms wikia and found no information

Strahd von Zarovich mentions that he turned a vampire due a pact with entities of Shadowfell ( https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Strahd_von_Zarovich ), but according to Lords of Darkness, the Origin of "first generation vampires"/"greater vampire" is when a mortal is in bed with a succubus and manages to not be "enslaved". His soul is only partially tainted by Abyss but he din't become a demon servant of the succubus.

"The Lords of Darkness (1988) accessory described a "greater vampire" which was created from the life-draining kiss of a succubus. A greater vampire had all the abilities of a lesser vampire and could also move about freely in daylight, allowing it to take on the persona of a normal person, usually a wealthy individual. During the hours of daylight, the greater vampire retained its superior strength and spell immunities but could not use any of its special abilities such as life-drain, shapeshifting, or gaseous form.[11]" https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Vampire

That would be the best outcome. BUT your character can't choose to become a greater vampire...

The problem with Lichdom on D&D is that unless is a heavy combat campaign, will be a chore in social campaigns. Vampires in D&D are also a problem for low to mid level PC's. since they will be much more OP than the rest of party in some situations and useless in another. If i an a DM, i would't allow PC's below lv 14 to become a vampire unless we are talking about a underdark campaign or something similar

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Is there any lich who can play the organ half as well as Strahd?

Spoiler

Clyde Caldwell artwork from adventure module I6 Ravenloft, 1983.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The advantage of the Lich is obvious and overwhelming: He's fucking invincible. Stuff your phylactery in an enchanted adamantium vault buried in the middle of a mountain or on the fucking moon, and you're untouchable. By the time you're throwing level 9 spells around and facing foes that can take you down in spite of that, something like mist form is a joke as far as defenses go. Inconveniences like appearance or sustenance became trivial for mages long before that point in either case- you could shapeshift into a fucking kraken if you were so inclined, or just waltz around stark naked and mind control everyone you meet.

On the other hand, you can kill a vampire with a fucking stick, and they don't even get their mist form escape nonsense unless they're within 9 miles of their coffin. They've no special immunity to simply being destroyed outright by save or die spells. Honestly the durability of a vampire is basically only a big deal for a relatively weak character to begin with.

 

[Jaedar]

Stuff your phylactery in an enchanted adamantium vault buried in the middle of a mountain or on the fucking moon, and you're untouchable.

Can't someone just cast wish to acquire/destroy your phylactery though ?

That is admittedly a 9th level spell, but I assume there are minor variants somewhere.

 

[normie]

kid me thought there'd be a way to practice proper necromancy in Morrowind - tombs and necromancers were everywhere and the often found writings on necromantic rites made it feel like there'd be something to it if I pay attention

what a shame

 

[Cryomancer]

Stuff your phylactery in an enchanted adamantium vault buried in the middle of a mountain or on the fucking moon, and you're untouchable.

If you could reach the moon, other people can reach too. But the problem with phylactery is simple. If you had to bargain with Orcus to the knowledge about how to make a phylactery and he manages to trick you and have your phylactery, you are now his SLAVE. Until you are destroyed or you manages to recover your phylactery from a demon lord. Any powerful entity that owns you. A vampire, has more limitations(coffin at 9 miles) BUT a coffin can be easily replaced. Ring of counter spell can save you from OHK spells

Can't someone just cast wish to acquire/destroy your phylactery though ?

That is admittedly a 9th level spell, but I assume there are minor variants somewhere.

phylactery has all types of magical protections. And is far above what a non epic spell can do.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I don't know what this bargain with orcus crap is about, sounds specific to a single settiing and not really relevant. And even if someone can reach the moon, the question is, can they reach the moon and get into your vault within ten days. The answer is almost certainly no. They'd have no reason to even know where it is. You can spend hundreds of years preparing the defenses of your vault. A wish spell isn't going to cut it. You'd need a small army of high level wizards to deal with all the spells and traps in the way and could expect to lose half of them in the process. And that's assuming the Lich didn't get a nice roll and pop back up while your pants are still down. Getting the phylactery is going to be far harder than getting you. Anything that can get it's hands on it could probably just take 5 copies of you in a straight up fight anyways, so you're it's slave either way if it cares enough about you.

You're putting an awful lot of faith in a ring of counter spell to stop anything in the game. Did it occur to you that a level 17 spellcaster might have more than one spell that can kill you? Or that he can annihilate you with damage and then trap your fart cloud? Or that he could fucking follow you by god damned walking? Even with stubby halfling legs? Again, a coffin is barely any defense at all. Best case scenario, is you keep it in a fortress like Strahd, but then it's obvious where it is and you can never leave that area and even then it's not nearly as strong a defense.