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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Next goal is Doubled Reactivity

UcZlZPr.png

That's a classic "we're out of stretch goals" stretch goal.
 

jerfdr

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Next goal is Doubled Reactivity

UcZlZPr.png

That's a classic "we're out of stretch goals" stretch goal.
I don't agree. Kingmaker severely lacked in reactivity (like Jaethal not reacting if your main character is a cleric of Pharasma, Jubilost explaining the gnome society to a fellow gnome and so on). And with this stretch goal they won't get away with such a low reactivity as in Kingmaker, so they'll have to implement something better. Which is really good in my book.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
That's not the point. It's a stretch goal that can't be quantified. "Stretch Goal: Make the game even better!"

We've seen stuff like this before. It's what developers do when the Kickstarter campaign is more successful than they expected and they don't want to go over scope.
 
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Curratum

Guest
Why must every new D&D RPG deal with some edgy bullshit (WotR) or unnecessary mechanics (Kingmaker)?

I am at once grateful that we're getting some proper D&D games and not horrible Sawyerisms but I'd also much rather see some of the classic modules and campaigns digitized, not Paizo's crap.
 

jerfdr

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That's not the point. It's a stretch goal that can't be quantified. "Stretch Goal: Make the game even better!"

We've seen stuff like this before, it's what developers do when the Kickstarter campaign is more successful than they expected and they don't want to go over scope.
It's not entirely unquantifiable; it's quite different to a "Stretch Goal: Make the game even better!". If they achieve this reactivity stretch goal and the game would still have obvious glaring contradictions like the ones I mentioned regarding Jaethal and Jubilost, they can be grilled for it.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
That's not the point. It's a stretch goal that can't be quantified. "Stretch Goal: Make the game even better!"
Nah. See, if they had a reaction to you if you did something, now they have a reaction if you didn't do aforesaid something. That's a double at least.
 

Tao

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They have plenty of room to make the game better. As i said before familiars were horrible useless in Kingmaker for example
 

NJClaw

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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Owlcat messed with the formula and got burned. The Codex argument is, "Fuck all those paying customers, they are just bad at the game." Okay.

They got burned? They out performed PoE2 and their Kickstarter is doing great. Just because you see people complaining on Steam forum doesn't mean anything. There is always a few people that scream loudly. Also thanks njclaw for those great sources so people can see what I mean.

They had 50% bad reviews until they re-released the game as "enhanced" edition, and still hover close to 30%. Numerous fixes and changes were introduced to alleviate this concern. Now they've admitted they're not going in the same direction with the sequel. I call that getting burned, otherwise why would they change it? You are free to see things differently.
Wait, so you are saying that the bad reviews were due to poor gameplay decision like time limits? There are three options:
- I missed your point (it's possible, I have just woken up and I am pretty dumb);
- You have not experienced that time period, so you don't know what you are talking about;
- You are twisting reality to prove your point.

Bad reviews were caused by an absurd and inconceivable amount of (often game-breaking or unbearable) bugs. If not for the bugs, the steam score would have been stable around 90% or 95%, with some bad review criticizing difficulty spikes.

That's a classic "we're out of stretch goals" stretch goal.
Couldn't they just throw in more classes?
 
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Drowed

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That's not the point. It's a stretch goal that can't be quantified. "Stretch Goal: Make the game even better!"

We've seen stuff like this before, it's what developers do when the Kickstarter campaign is more successful than they expected and they don't want to go over scope.
It's not entirely unquantifiable; it's quite different to a "Stretch Goal: Make the game even better!". If they achieve this reactivity stretch goal and the game would still have obvious glaring contradictions like the ones I mentioned regarding Jaethal and Jubilost, they can be grilled for it.

Well, yeah, and no. The point is that this is not a parameter for analysis. Let's suppose you find a moment in the new PF where some kind of reaction made sense, but it doesn't happen: did they fail in the stretch goal then?

Maybe so, but maybe not. It may be that the game really has double the reactivity. Maybe in the original they structured something like, who knows, 200 moments where the game reacts to what you do/choose/obtained/etc. And in this new one, it was 400. This may be just one of the cases where it wasn't done, after all, no matter how reactive you try to make a game, there will always be times when you haven't thought of something. Or maybe it wasn't really double, just about 120% more, but if you don't know how much was there in the first place, how will you tell if something doubled? Or even, perhaps, the number of events is actually twice as many numerically speaking, but they have used shortcuts to fill this number, such as an NPC that changes a single sentence he uses quoting your race/class/gender/whatever, and each exchange is a "different reaction". BAM, 30 new reactions in 30 dialog strings, genius!

If I'm gonna sell you a beer can with twice as much beer, but you don't know how much beer was planned for the original can, what good is that promise gonna do to you? It's basically a promise of "trust us, we'll do more than the previous game." Which may turn out to be true, but it's still a vague, unquantifiable promise that in the end may mean whatever they want it to mean. I'm not saying that the game won't be better for it, or that they have no intention of keeping that promise to some extent, but you can't deny that of all the promises, this is one of the most vague and least quantifiable of all. It's not shocking that this isn't exciting for many people.

Edit: It even reminded me of an infamous phrase of the former president here: "Let's not set a goal. We will leave the goal open, but when we reach the goal, we will double the goal". :roll::lol:

---

But no doubt, I prefer such a promise to a campaign with several exaggerated promises that you are sure they won't be able to keep (and then abandon them and apologize) or will keep them so badly implemented that it was better simply not to have promised anything in the first place.
 
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Israfael

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In this case, what does reactivity even mean? Is it more interactve NPCs /companions / world (a-la Arcanum's newsletters which mention various events related to your adventures), is it about companion banter / forced choices like in DAO, or plainly more C&C throughout the campaign?
 

Daidre

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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
They had 50% bad reviews until they re-released the game as "enhanced" edition, and still hover close to 30%. Numerous fixes and changes were introduced to alleviate this concern. Now they've admitted they're not going in the same direction with the sequel. I call that getting burned, otherwise why would they change it? You are free to see things differently.

There are dozens and dozens of posts on this forum making fun of the fact that Kingmaker had 'mixed' reviews, for months. I remember this era vividly because that's when I wrote my own Steam review. These posts are historically accurate, and are scattered all over the board.

Call me paranoid, but Grampy_Bone sounds scarily alike to Gregz. Alt?
 

Shadenuat

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In this case, what does reactivity even mean? Is it more interactve NPCs /companions / world (a-la Arcanum's newsletters which mention various events related to your adventures), is it about companion banter / forced choices like in DAO, or plainly more C&C throughout the campaign?
For example, if in PK it was only alignment for dialogue, now it can also be race/religion.
 

Dodo1610

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The time limits do not restrict resting! Resting takes up a few hours of the game there is literally no reason not to rest once you used up out of your main abilities. What really makes the time pass is travelling on the world map and of course projects in which weeks just pass by where you cannot do anything.

More reactivity
:yeah:
The lack of reactivity was the only thing I thought was severely lacking in Kingmaker, you race/class and sadly even the companions you have in your party never felt like the impacted the world/story and dialogue the way they did in other RPGs.
 
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Dr Skeleton

Arcane
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
814
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
>Who's better: Shakespeare or whatever this guys name was?
Owlcat Games, a bunch of nobodies, managed to out do what Bioware and Obsidian failed at. Something to consider, always give that guy the benefit of doubt, always. He might just end up blowing your expectations out of the park.
Did you just call developers of Rage of Mages nobodies?! Rage!!! Of Mages!!! :x
And Evil Islands. Which is also a part of the Allods series, sort of.


In this case, what does reactivity even mean? Is it more interactve NPCs /companions / world (a-la Arcanum's newsletters which mention various events related to your adventures), is it about companion banter / forced choices like in DAO, or plainly more C&C throughout the campaign?
I think they mean dialogue options/NPC reactions depending on your race, class, alignment, companions, past choices, probably mythic path in WotR etc. Kingmaker had some of those but mostly in the early chapters and lacked them in quite a few where they should have been present (like companion interactions). But yeah, "double the reactivity" sounds good but doesn't mean anything, they might as well promise to double the number of items or enemies, we don't know the base number that's supposed to get doubled, if it's even a quantifiable number at this stage.
 

jerfdr

Educated
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Messages
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Well, yeah, and no. The point is that this is not a parameter for analysis. Let's suppose you find a moment in the new PF where some kind of reaction made sense, but it doesn't happen: did they fail in the stretch goal then?

Maybe so, but maybe not. It may be that the game really has double the reactivity. Maybe in the original they structured something like, who knows, 200 moments where the game reacts to what you do/choose/obtained/etc. And in this new one, it was 400. This may be just one of the cases where it wasn't done, after all, no matter how reactive you try to make a game, there will always be times when you haven't thought of something. Or maybe it wasn't really double, just about 120% more, but if you don't know how much was there in the first place, how will you tell if something doubled? Or even, perhaps, the number of events is actually twice as many numerically speaking, but they have used shortcuts to fill this number, such as an NPC that changes a single sentence he uses quoting your race/class/gender/whatever, and each exchange is a "different reaction". BAM, 30 new reactions in 30 dialog strings, genius!

If I'm gonna sell you a beer can with twice as much beer, but you don't know how much beer was planned for the original can, what good is that promise gonna do to you? It's basically a promise of "trust us, we'll do more than the previous game." Which may turn out to be true, but it's still a vague, unquantifiable promise that in the end may mean whatever they want it to mean. I'm not saying that the game won't be better for it, or that they have no intention of keeping that promise to some extent, but you can't deny that of all the promises, this is one of the most vague and least quantifiable of all. It's not shocking that this isn't exciting for many people.

Edit: It even reminded me of an infamous phrase of the former president here: "Let's not set a goal. We will leave the goal open, but when we reach the goal, we will double the goal". :roll::lol:

---

But no doubt, I prefer such a promise to a campaign with several exaggerated promises that you are sure they won't be able to keep (and then abandon them and apologize) or will keep them so badly implemented that it was better simply not to have promised anything in the first place.
You're right, but I still feel that despite the vagueness of this stretch goal it's certainly better if they publicly acknowledge that they are committed to improving the game on this specific front (which was one of the weaker aspects of Kingmaker, an otherwise excellent game). And, like you said in the last line, it's better than having exaggerated promises, at this point.
 

jerfdr

Educated
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
99
In this case, what does reactivity even mean? Is it more interactve NPCs /companions / world (a-la Arcanum's newsletters which mention various events related to your adventures), is it about companion banter / forced choices like in DAO, or plainly more C&C throughout the campaign?
Like I said above, I bet that it has to do with cases like Jaethal not reacting to your main character being a cleric of Pharasma, or Jubilost teaching you how gnome society works even if you're a fellow gnome, or when you play as a tiefling and still can ask Kanerah and Kalikke what it means to be a tiefling, etc.
 

Israfael

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Messages
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For example, if in PK it was only alignment for dialogue, now it can also be race/religion.
Yes, but this is just one of the possible interpretations of 'reactivity', that's what I'm saying. Hopefully they'll clarify that if the prediction is actually correct.
 

oldmanpaco

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They should have a goal to double the number of environmental models they make. One of the things that bugged me was how every location looked the same after a while.
 

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