KickStarter Bloodstained - Koji Igarashi's new metroidvania game

[Damned Registrations]

SotN is my favourite of the series. None of them have any difficulty anyways, and SotN at least has a nice open map and great music and artwork instead of being a linear slog through rooms with no reason to ever backtrack or explore.

 

[HansDampf]

Though SOTN is fairly easy and can be completely cheeseballed with some of the more ridiculous endgame options, it's still worth playing for its engaging world design and character progression. There's a lot of interesting stuff to see and explore as you make your own journey through the castle. Mechanics aren't as fleshed out as the later titles, but it is at its most sprawling and experimental.

Would you say it's the best Castlevania? That's what I usually hear.

Nope, I rate it below Portrait of Ruin, Aria of Sorrow, and Order of Ecclesia for problems with its difficulty curve and mediocre boss design. It is definitely the one to start with, though.

Of course, there is an entire thread about this. Lots of different opinions, but I'm leaning towards Aria of Sorrow. And I remember now, I did play Dawn of Sorrow when it came out on NDS but forgot almost everything about it. Must have been meh.


Btw, one more thing I forgot to mention about Bloodstained. In my first playthrough I didn't find the Aegis Plate. When I reached the point where the spiked section in Entrance was the only part left unexplored, I stacked up on healing items and just walked through the spikes. I wonder if you could get to the Oriental Lab early and also if Zangetsu would be there.

 

[Kruno]

Btw, one more thing I forgot to mention about Bloodstained. In my first playthrough I didn't find the Aegis Plate. When I reached the point where the spiked section in Entrance was the only part left unexplored, I stacked up on healing items and just walked through the spikes. I wonder if you could get to the Oriental Lab early and also if Zangetsu would be there.

I did try this and I had almost everything to make it through, HP wasn't an issue, and the answer is no. Unless you have the plot specific item you can not get up there early.

 

[Infinitron]

Cancelled $5M stretch goal: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iga/bloodstained-ritual-of-the-night/posts/2772919

Game Mode Changes
One of the promised stretch goals for the game was Roguelike. Unfortunately, the code that was created early in the game’s development is not currently compatible with this type of gameplay (especially a procedurally generated castle). Due to this, we regret to announce that we will not be developing Roguelike as part of the project's planned stretch goals.

We know this is a mode that many of you were eagerly anticipating and we apologize that we will not be able to make it happen as planned.

We don’t want to leave a hole in the roster, so we have developed a new game mode called “Randomizer” to take its place. Randomizer will launch with Zangetsu and be available for free. Details on Randomizer are laid out below.

Randomizer Mode Details
Randomizer is the story campaign you’re used to, but with a twist. Before starting a game, players can choose up to eight different game parameters to be randomized during the playthrough.

As an example, “Items - Retain Method” means that items will be found in the same spawn method (chest, mob drop, etc.) as normal. Items found in chests will still be found in chests, they will just get mixed around. “Total random” means anything can drop anywhere.

The mode will ensure safeguards to ensure that items needed to complete the game will be obtainable, so you can’t softlock your progress.

Once you make your selections, you can generate a seed that you can use for reference or to share with someone else. In addition, a timer will track your progress through the game and display your completion time at the end of a run.

We hope that everyone will enjoy the new mode and work to get the shortest clear time possible for your permutations!

 

[Valky]

randomizer sounds like a very easy thing to implement programatically, so maybe lazy, but the way its described with generating a seed that you could share sounds kind of neat.
Can't say the loss of a roguelike gives me great pain.

 

[Silentstorm]

A good randomizer is actually much harder than it sounds, keep in mind that when people make roguelikes or any lite variation, they are putting so that a shit ton of items, equipment, enemies and layout have to be randomized, work together in a way that is beatable and really, just have levels that work with a start and finish.

It's by no means something lazy, though there have been some attempts at randomizing Metroidvanias, they rarely work though because...you know, Metroidvanias are the kind of genre where actual level design is quite welcome.

I guess they could do what some people do with romhacks, just randomize item locations, but even then, that could still take work to make sure the game doesn't become unwinnable.

 

[deuxhero]

The DS Castlevania randomizer has all seeds with a random map give you an infinite use item that returns you to the starting room and still produces seeds that are unbeatable without glitches at times.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Pretty disappointing. People have made romhacks of quite a few snes games that randomize the map itself (including metroid itself) with care taken to avoid unbeatable seeds. Shuffling everything around is still better replay value than nothing, but I was expecting at least a simple room shuffler; they're all discretely seperated by doorways and such anyways, no reason they shouldn't be able to make a mode that sews them together randomly. All you really need for that is to classify each room/entrance as requiring specific items to pass through and set up some logic as to what has to appear where based on that. It's not nearly as hard as making something like Spelunky where you need to generate the terrain itself.

 

[deuxhero]

Problem is a lot of rooms differ greatly depending on where the player enters from, and you've got more hub like areas or forks where you return to with different upgrades.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Sure, but if some randos can pull it off for free in a hack for fucking Link to the Past or Super Metroid, they should have been able to work something out for this, knowing it was going to be a feature to begin with and having been paid to do so. 90% of the rooms are going to be completely free to move around in, and if it were really that much trouble they could make you start with one or two abilities to simplify it further. Double jump alone would probably cover the vast majority of rooms. Hell, give the player all the key items. The point is to make the exploration a surprise, not construct an infinite number of finely crafted maps.

 

[Tigranes]

They haven't been able to even get the Zangetsu mode in yet & took months and months to fix the Switch release, so I imagine for whatever reason their programming capacity is at a premium.

 

[Kruno]

They have one guy working on everything. Rock star programming!

 

[Damned Registrations]

It baffles me that 90% of professional game programmers get stuck working on some mobile app shovelware or barbie horse adventure and yet when a game they'd all kill to be on the team for shows up, it's almost always scraping the barrel for talent. How the fuck is there more talent in hobbyist game development than anywhere else?

 

[vonAchdorf]

It baffles me that 90% of professional game programmers get stuck working on some mobile app shovelware or barbie horse adventure and yet when a game they'd all kill to be on the team for shows up, it's almost always scraping the barrel for talent. How the fuck is there more talent in hobbyist game development than anywhere else?

Because programmers prefer to work for companies which don't fire them after the game shipped. That's why talent loves companies with yearly sequels and service games.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

It baffles me that 90% of professional game programmers get stuck working on some mobile app shovelware or barbie horse adventure and yet when a game they'd all kill to be on the team for shows up, it's almost always scraping the barrel for talent. How the fuck is there more talent in hobbyist game development than anywhere else?

You know that those mobile apps probably makes more than actual serious video games right? Just read articles about how much money is thrown in mobile games market every year.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

So... Barbievania game where she's hunting down clothes, accessories, apply make up, and hook up with her ho's and bros in Mattel Hotel? Get happy points and achievements. How many versions of barbie can you unlock? Dare you enter space or the lands of fantasy to find prince Ken? Will you unlock horse, pegasus, unicorn, pegacorn/unisus rides? Or Pink Barbie Ferrari Will you get a magic wand and become Pop Idol Star Barbie singing and dancing your way to fame and friendships?

its all up to you!

I'm sure this didn't even come close....

 

[ebPD8PePfC]

Finished it on normal difficulty. Not much to say. It’s all good, with some issues that are prevalent in the genre, namely too much backtracking and random puzzles that have very little to do with the game’s mechanics, and are best rid of with a walkthrough. Itemization is fun, customization is nice, and the crafting is actually good.
- I like the combat system, but the combos should be shown when you select the weapon, after you find the relevant book, or discover it on your own.
- The crafting is good. I like the cooking system in particular, where the first time you cook and eat something you get a permanent bonus. It’s a nice idea.
- The bestiary is impressively large. Well done.
All in all, a good Castlevania-ish game, though it isn’t ground breaking in any way. I hope they follow the Castlevania tradition and make a sequel with a lot of reused assets.

 

[Siveon]

All in all, a good Castlevania-ish game, though it isn’t ground breaking in any way. I hope they follow the Castlevania tradition and make a sequel with a lot of reused assets.

I think a franchise of Igavania's would be a perpetual scratch to an itch people had since they stopped making them about a decade ago.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Why didn't konami/nintendo make a castlevania maker like they did with mario?

 

[Ventidius]

Been playing this over the last few days and I'm having a blast. I'm not that far in yet, though (I just beat the Double Jump boss). One thing I like about this game are the itemization and the loadout options. Lots of options for weapon styles, with their corresponding mechanics, techniques, and shard/equipment loadouts that complement them. The combat engine itself is surprisingly smooth and variegated for an indie game, and it makes the moment-to-moment combat experience satisfying.

Shards do seem a bit OP, though I like how I can use them to complement my playstyle, such as using the Head Flail as a close range option when using firearms or Welcome Company when switching to Katanas. Talking of guns, that's probably a contributing factor to my enjoyment here, as I really dig it when Metroidvanias give me ranged options - probably 'cause Super Metroid is still my favorite - and I also like games that feature early firearms. The various ammo options are also cool, though I find the "power" ammo to be a bit OP, probably more than the shards, as I made mincemeat out of the Double Jump boss with them on my first try. At least the better types of ammo are relatively rare and expensive, though not enough that you won't have enough money to buy as much as you'll need for the next boss, even factoring in other expenses. I find that the special ammo is pretty much unnecessary for regular enemies, as shards and regular weaponry/ammo are enough to deal with them, thus you can easily save it for bosses.

The level design so far is sufficiently sprawling, but I am a bit disappointed by the lack of environmental interactivity options on offer so far.

I don't know if the game will be able to sustain the level of content quality of the early game into the mid/late game (some of the feedback in this thread indicates otherwise), but I suspect I will end up satisfied with my purchase regardless, as the systems/mechanics are strong enough to make the core gameplay loop fun even when the content design is at its weaker moments. This will be even more so the case if they can keep the boss quality high (as comments on this thread also seems to indicate), as I have always thought that challenge-wise, bosses are usually the most important part of Metroidvanias. This sub-genre isn't at all like Souls-likes, where "tactical puzzles" and consistency of challenge are equally or more important than boss design. Order of Ecclesia probably comes the closest to that, but it's also kind of an outlier.

What I do think could hurt the game is the bestiary running out of steam and having to see recycled enemies often, as that would harm the game's variety. That, and weaker level design. However, the latter issue could be mitigated somewhat if they introduce more locomotive/manipulative abilities and the concomitant environmental interactivity.

I've been playing it on the Switch, as Metroidvanias are one of those genres (like Wizardry-style blobbers) that I have come to enjoy more on portable than on other kinds of platforms. I heard it was a clusterfuck at release, but it seems playable now. There are a few areas with FPS drops, long-ish loading screens, plus the occasional crash, but overall the issues are isolated and do not break the pace of the game for the most part.

Most of the flaws that I have noticed and heard of in comments seem to be in the nature of the budget limitations that often come with indie projects rather than wrongheaded design philosophy. Thus, it overall seems to me that Iga has not lost it, and that it will be worthwhile to keep an eye out for his future endeavors. However, I'll have to finish the game to fully make up my mind on it, even if my initial impressions are positive.

 

[RoSoDude]

You're having spot-on the same experience I did. Mechanics and systems offer a lot of variety and depth, bosses are awesome, content starts out pretty promising; but cracks in the balance also appear early as do indications that the level design will drop off and the enemy roster will be thoroughly recycled. Figures that some of your predictions are so on-point though, since I think you read my rants.

I want to give the game another chance on Nightmare, but I am skeptical that my issues with shard balance towards the end of the game can be addressed by difficulty modulation, as cool as some of the remixed enemy placements and new behaviors are. Some of the shard upgrades approach SotN levels of cheese. Holding out hope for Zangetsu mode at this point. Love my weapon techniques.

 

[Ventidius]

You're having spot-on the same experience I did. Mechanics and systems offer a lot of variety and depth, bosses are awesome, content starts out pretty promising; but cracks in the balance also appear early as do indications that the level design will drop off and the enemy roster will be thoroughly recycled. Figures that some of your predictions are so on-point though, since I think you read my rants.

Indeed I have, and it is good stuff, as usual. However, some of it is definitely already noticeable, even now. A few of the enemy variants, for example, have already worn out their welcome for me. I do wonder, though, if there are any high points later on, in terms of level design. How about environmental interaction and manipulative/locomotive skills?

That said, unless the level design declines too badly (as in, complete linearity), I think I won't be quite as bothered by the issues you described. In particular, the balance problems aren't necessarily a deal breaker for me in a Metroidvania. As you mention, SotN had issues of this kind (though it had the level design to compensate for it, to be fair), and, as I mentioned above, a high level of challenge for regular enemies is not usually a must for me in this sub-genre, though it is a nice plus. I'm more concerned about the bosses becoming too easy though, that'd definitely be no good, and I already got a bit of a taste of that with the Double Jump boss, as I mentioned, though it had nothing to do with Shards and more to do with special ammo. Overall, I liked the boss and its moveset, but was disappointed about how easy it was.

I want to give the game another chance on Nightmare, but I am skeptical that my issues with shard balance towards the end of the game can be addressed by difficulty modulation, as cool as some of the remixed enemy placements and new behaviors are. Some of the shard upgrades approach SotN levels of cheese. Holding out hope for Zangetsu mode at this point. Love my weapon techniques.

I don't know much about Nightmare mode just yet, but what you are talking about actually sounds way better than the usual "bloat dat HP" approach, so I'll probably end up trying it myself. In fact, as I said, my issues with the balance have more to do with how guns/ammo are tuned than Shards (to be fair, I haven't experimented that much with them, though I can already tell True Arrow seems OP), so I think Nightmare could actually address some of my gripes substantially. I mostly choose Shards on the basis of which sounds the most fun and/or suits my playstyle best, so I don't worry too much about them. That said, self-imposed restrictions are admittedly not an excuse for design problems.

Zangetsu mode does sound like it could be a lot of fun, has there been any word on that?

 

[RoSoDude]

I do wonder, though, if there are any high points later on, in terms of level design. How about environmental interaction and manipulative/locomotive skills?

It's on the understated end of the scale, as Igarashi's games after Dawn of Sorrow have tended to be (though I felt Portrait of Ruin made up for this with some of the quest easter eggs). There are two progression upgrades that make use of the new directional shard type in very clever ways, though, and at least one level with an interesting gimmick.

I don't know much about Nightmare mode just yet, but what you are talking about actually sounds way better than the usual "bloat dat HP" approach, so I'll probably end up trying it myself. In fact, as I said, my issues with the balance have more to do with how guns/ammo are tuned than Shards (to be fair, I haven't experimented that much with them, though I can already tell True Arrow seems OP), so I think Nightmare could actually address some of my gripes substantially. I mostly choose Shards on the basis of which sounds the most fun and/or suits my playstyle best, so I don't worry too much about them. That said, self-imposed restrictions are admittedly not an excuse for design problems.

Yeah, Igarashi usually puts the work in for his Hard modes. Hard Mode features damage modifiers in addition to new enemy placement and more aggressive behaviors from enemies and bosses. Nightmare Mode is Hard Mode, but you're capped to level 1. This has been standard since Portrait of Ruin, with arguably two optimal ways to replay the games -- Hard Mode on NG or Hard Mode Max Level 1 on NG+. The problem with Bloodstained is that in either case I'm worried the shard/food balance will render these otherwise respectable difficulty selections obsolete. Tougher enemies won't be too much of a challenge if you can still spam overpowered shards, and max level 1 won't matter if you can still grind up their rank and grade. I could do Nightmare NG, but then I might feel even more pushed towards optimal shard grinding.

Zangetsu mode does sound like it could be a lot of fun, has there been any word on that?

No

Last mention was in last month's Kickstarter update where they talked about cutting the stretch goal Roguelike mode in favor of a simplified Randomizer to be released alongside Zangetsu mode.

 

[Perkel]

IT does matter because without leveling up you can't really use those shards as frequent as you won't have mana tank.

 

[RuySan]

Finished this yesterday. Took me 18h and is everything I wanted from it. Not as good as order of ecclesia but probably the second best igavania.

I wasn't sold as the beginning on the 3d graphics. I honestly would have preferred 2d sprites, but I got used to it, and some parts of the game look pretty nice, although it's a bit easy overall.

The carpenter shard is absolutely OP, and made the last 3 boss rights a breeze, but it still felt good.