Gaider

[Annie Mitsoda]

Azrael: Alas, my icon is misleading, and too often I use it to my favor. I left Obsidian back in Oct, and am currently freelancing while I sniff out employment in Seattle. But I can tell you from my limited time in the game that the Aliens RPG is looking like TEH HOTT SEXX. Seriously, writing on it was like "here, Annie: these are some of the cutest kittens in the world, but you can only play with them for a LITTLE WHILE before you give them back FOREVER." The characters are fucking RAD, and I did regret that I only got a little time to work with them. But it's awesome, the systems are solid as hell, everything I've seen of it I was impressed with, and as always Josh Sawyer knows what the fuck he is doing.

RE SHIT-TALKING: I do agree that it does happen. I just want to be on the angel's side on this - i.e. providing open discussion instead of just outright slagging. If I just sling shit, it'll look like I think I have nothing to learn, which is pure bullpies.

And I apologize for Casavir. Trust me, if I coulda changed him, I WOULDA. Just be thankful we didn't use the ORIGINAL face that he had. HOLY GOD IT WAS SO FUCKING TERRIBLE.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

And I apologize for Casavir. Trust me, if I coulda changed him, I WOULDA. Just be thankful we didn't use the ORIGINAL face that he had. HOLY GOD IT WAS SO FUCKING TERRIBLE.

Details plz. Codex lieks teh shocks.

 

[Ion Flux]

But it's awesome, the systems are solid as hell, everything I've seen of it I was impressed with, and as always Josh Sawyer knows what the fuck he is doing.

Well that's pretty encouraging. Now switching from "cautious optimism" to "moderately stoked".

 

[Gragt]

Cute is not the word I would use. He is a character with a surprising
amount of depth and realism to him, which I think is why an awful lot of
women come to appreciate him. He's got issues alright, but they're
issues that I can relate to, having several friends who grew up in
dysfunctional families with abusive parents. Most importantly, though,
is the fact that he does a significant amount of growing up through the
course of the romance. If you're the sort of woman who wants a man who
will be completely loyal to you, then he's perfect.

Love conquers all, I guess, and certainly one of the most irritating clichés in my eyes. Wagner fell for it and it ruined the end of Siegfried, an otherwise very fine drama; Götterdammerung also suffers from this. I also remember it is the answer given to every problem by Victor Hugo in Les Misérables, but then again the man had some poor understanding of human psychology. Anyway I know people who came from dysfunctional families and had some serious issues to deal with, and none of them solved these problems through love but through willpower alone (that is, for those who solved their issues at all). The idea of relying on someone else's love to solve one's problems might be tempting, but worthless in the end as it would only create a situation of dependence, certainly not loyalty. It's similar to asking a woman to be a love interest and a mother for the same person at the same time. I do not know many women who would enjoy that kind of position.

Annie: if you ask me, there is nothing wrong with a bit of criticism. You only stick to the work and do not touch the person, because the two are different. Only someone very susceptible or uncertain of the quality of his/her work would react badly to this.

Also you gave me quite a bit of hope about the Aliens RPG, if it turns out to be bad I'll send Lithuanian hitmen to your door.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

none of them solved these problems through love but through willpower alone

The Guardians approves.

 

[kris]

Re: Gaider's 'making babies' quote - quick, name a female PC - male NPC romance option in a Bioware game that didn't make you want to puke?

If you are a man I am more inclined to ask why you even know anything about them than actually trashing them. Clearly the female players that they are aimed at kind of likes them. Yes the bitter cynical girls around this place excluded.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

I don't even study anything remotely to do with things like Siegfried or Victor Hugo and even I've heard of them, so they're obviously doing something right to be famous after all this time.

How can you think that helping people = mothering?

Seems the main emotional damage for Anomen was rejection and lack of acceptance.

People have had issues like that before, and people have gotten over it in any way you can think of. Would you call a dog or favorite pet a mother figure if someone from a dysfunctional family who has no friends and no one who gives a fuck found some solace in them, even if it is an animal? Dogs don't play psychologist, they have no training, and are normally too stupid to understand the meaning of dysfunctional. It's not rare.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

Not that I'm saying Anomen wasn't a mother/lover relationship, or that it was well written...

I bet $50 Lesifoere would punch people like Anomen in jaw

 

[Lesifoere]

If I can do it and get away without assault charges, sure!

I wouldn't say every single "love conquers all!" shitfest is about mothering, but emotional codependency is definitely an issue. Generally, though, such shitfests tend to be more about romanticizing... well, romance. They portray a relationship as cornily intense (the couple's brains melting to pink slush whenever they're near each other) without taking into account that such intensity, sexual or otherwise, doesn't last. I always think that most couples in your average love-conquers-all fare would break up pretty fast after the epilogue finishes, the credits roll, the curtains fall, whatever. No more drama llama, no more obstacles for their shiny rainbow-farting love to overcome. Then they'd discover each other's little flaws, get increasingly frustrated and more resentful, and come to the realization that both of them were immature little fucks whose "love" thrived on the thrill of obstacles, not on actually liking the other person as a human being.

 

[Naked Ninja]

I'm amused by all this talk about how romances in games lack "realism".

Game romances are like game combat : fantasy. A form of wish fulfillment. Not real. The girls who liked those romances liked them because they were playing out some unrealistic romantic day dream, the exact same daydream you see in just about every romantic comedy. All these attempts to explain how "that's not how it works in real life!!!" are silly. It's a fantasy.

Men have similar laughably-unrealistic fantasies, but ours tend to be more about power and violence and getting the hot girl through displays of awesomeness. You know, where we go around getting into fights and expressing our dominance by conquering our enemies and all the other little alpha male power fantasies that lurk in our minds but don't get expressed in the real world where we're all office drones instead of action heroes.

Sure, I don't care for that soppy teenage girl romance crap. My brain almost evacuated my skull during the dialogue in Twilight. But many girls don't care for our power/violence/aggression fantasies. I'm quite happy to let them enjoy their fantasies while I have mine.

Sure, there is plenty of room for more realistic stories. But those types of romance stories cater to a need in their audience, in the same way that action movies/games cater to a need in their audience. Boo hoo, just deal with it.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Honestly, I don't think there is any sort of wish fulfilment that I seek from games. It's not living out a fantasy, for me.

I just happen to derive alot of joy from choosing the right weapons, putting points into the right skills, using the right tactics and spells against the enemy, and see the numbers go up and down.

When I am fighting mutated bunnies in Wasteland, I get pleasure from seeing that the total amount of damage done in a round has been enough to change "5 bunnies" to "4 bunnies". I never see any bunny getting killed. There is no male fantasy joy of seeing violence. Just a little play with numbers and decisions.

To be fair, I derive the same joy from even those games where there is a graphical representation of combat, like NWN2. For me, the graphical demonstration of the enemies I am killing and the animations of them falling and dying is just a functional representation. In a game like NWN2, the graphical representation of you attacking your enemies is just rudimentary enough to do its job. It is not meant to recreate heart pounding action and violence.

The thinking that I apply to the fighting in RPGs is: "Is this workable? Do these mechanics make good sense?" I would apply the same thinking to romance in RPGs. "I am seeing a bunch of options about whether I should stroke the woman's cheek, or compliement her. What is the challenge in this situation? What is the reward for it? Does it have any meaningful consequence in the game? If I tell her: 'Let's make babies', will it boost my Charisma, so I can use more sorcerer spells? Or does it not make a damn difference whatsoever?"

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

The only negative comment here about Gaiders little fan girl fic is the make babies line. What else is wrong with it other than the fact that the audience it caters to mixes with the codex in the same way that acid mixes with retinas?

I'm not going to study for a degree in English language and writing to find out why it's bad.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I noticed several lines constantly referring to how uncomfortable and impatient Revan is feeling "under her clothes".

Somehow, that just seems awkward to me, perhaps a strange way of hinting at something.

 

[Naked Ninja]

@ Wyrmlord : Uh huh. So you just like playing the numbers eh? Yet you've described combat examples.

How many of these number-manipulation games you love have themes without violent confrontation? How many non-violent games are you a fan of?

In a game like NWN2, the graphical representation of you attacking your enemies is just rudimentary enough to do its job. It is not meant to recreate heart pounding action and violence.

Irrelevant. The mechanics are built around dominance and aggression themes.

@ Lesifoere : Reading comprehension fail. I wasn't defending poor writing, I was defending the fact that those romances aren't realistic, a fact which seemed to cause you so much angst. They don't have to be. Like this :

Generally, though, such shitfests tend to be more about romanticizing... well, romance. They portray a relationship as cornily intense (the couple's brains melting to pink slush whenever they're near each other) without taking into account that such intensity, sexual or otherwise, doesn't last.

And most action games romanticize...action. It's more intense, more heroic, the player is far more potent that could realistically be expected of a single human being, with little account for the real consequences of constant fighting. It's a fantasy. Escapism. Romantic escapism is just as valid as action escapism.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Skill checks, then. Finding ways of boosting your skills, so that they can deal with situations like disarming traps, unlocking doors, persuading a character, sneaking through enemies, or scouting out an enemy ambush.

Those are all numbers and mechanics. They are all based on the right character optimization, right equipment, right choices in levelling characters up, so that a certain obstacle can be passed, or a certain rewards can be unlocked. And even in those rewards, numbers come into play. Perhaps it is a pile of gold, a good sword, a useful spell, all of which have benefits represented numerically. Hence, numbers go in, numbers go out, and the player has fun.

Besides, skill checks are some of the most fun aspects of RPGs, even though things like disarming traps, or deciphering runes don't exactly make for heroic and epic fantasy.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

It also emphasizes testicular innuendo, and thinking about sex while racing against time to save the universe. Oh, and also screwing on the flight to that little prothean home world to go into a fight, horribly outnumbered, out gunned and exhausted from lack of rest + sex.

Mass Effect is meant to be a trilogy, it actually might of had enough pacing in it for Bioware to write romances that are slightly more normal and relateable than the usual stuff. They didn't

 

[Naked Ninja]

You're still talking about masculine hero simulators, not, like, sim housewife. Or sim accountant.

And even if you, personally, are a male who doesn't care about the action and doesn't enjoy action movies, I'm afraid I have something to tell you : most of your fellow men are.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Gaider

LOL

 

[Lesifoere]

@ Lesifoere : Reading comprehension fail. I wasn't defending poor writing, I was defending the fact that those romances aren't realistic, a fact which seemed to cause you so much angst. They don't have to be. Like this :

Generally, though, such shitfests tend to be more about romanticizing... well, romance. They portray a relationship as cornily intense (the couple's brains melting to pink slush whenever they're near each other) without taking into account that such intensity, sexual or otherwise, doesn't last.

And most action games romanticize...action. It's more intense, more heroic, the player is far more potent that could realistically be expected of a single human being, with little account for the real consequences of constant fighting. It's a fantasy. Escapism. Romantic escapism is just as valid as action escapism.

No, see, I consider pretty much anything that revolves around "love conquers all" bad writing by default. And you, funnily enough, did defend Twilight. I don't know what that abomination is if not absolutely fucking shitty writing, unless you'd like to defend its literary merits?

Also, lol at "causing you so much angst." I could just pinch your cheek.

 

[Astromarine]

That's a pretty silly stance to take. As are most stances that take the form "anything that does X is Y".

What is the difference between your basic Twilight-level "love conquers all" and, say, your basic 40K novel where one guy's muscles and sheer badassitude save the world again and again?

And I'd say that Twilight's problem is not its subject matter, it's that it bears as much resemblance to a piece of literature as one of my turds to the Virgin Mary. A lot of the output of, say, medieval sonnet writers (I'm not familiar with English classical literature that much, but in Portugal we had Camoes and Bocage as great writers of romantic poetry) could be called "love conquers all tripe", but while they're not exactly culturally relevant anymore their place in the history of literature is assured.

The whole fantasy genre suffers from this kind of starry-eyed look at the world. It makes as much sense to view love as this all-conquering emotion as for example portraying a medieval world in which disease isn't rampant, and people over the age of 50 aren't blisteringly rare. Sure, you might say you prefer games where this view isn't taken, and that's a perfectly valid opinion. But in games where precisely that view is taken over all the rest of the setting, having gritty realistic relationships would be jarring. I don't want a romance like this in the Witcher, but not all games have to be the witcher to be good.

 

[Lesifoere]

That's a pretty silly stance to take. As are most stances that take the form "anything that does X is Y".

What is the difference between your basic Twilight-level "love conquers all" and, say, your basic 40K novel where one guy's muscles and sheer badassitude save the world again and again?

I don't like male wish-fulfillment fantasies, either. =D Salvatore, Greenwood, Paolini, Goodkind, Jordan--I think they're all shit, and not much better than Meyer. I don't even care for James Bond.

Bringing up medieval writers is pretty silly. Medieval writing predates what we today call psychological depth and, for that matter, realism. But even then, I'd rather read Chaucer's jabs at courtly love or Dunbar's The Tua Mariit Wemen and the Wedo because those are more interesting and funnier.

 

[Astromarine]

Fine, but the whole point is that art doesn't have as its single purpose to educate or elevate humanity. Sure, when it reaches that point it's awesome and magical, but some of it is just more naive, innocent, bucolic, nostalgic, whatever you want to call it.

Not to call trash like 40K novels or Twilight art. Or, for that matter, anything that Gaider ever penned. There's two levels to the discussion. One is if romances of the type described have any place in the games, another is if they're good writing.

I guess we can all agree that if there are any games that can be said to have genuinely GOOD writing, they can be counted on one's extremities. NWN and Mass Effect and their ilk are definitely not in that group. But in the middle of all that mediocre genre fare with its buff and stoic main character, the snivelling bond villains, the badass attitude, etc, do you really argue that simplistic all's-well-that-ends-in-bed romances are out of place?

 

[Lesifoere]

Wait, wait. Where did art enter into the question? I was not trying, by any stretch of the imagination, to turn this into an "are games art?" debate because that way lies stupidity and headache. :/ Nor would I say, necessarily, that good writing by itself equals art--I'm not talking about art, or even literariness: I'm satisfied with writing that does not suck. Gaider's writing sucks. Twilight sucks.

But in the middle of all that mediocre genre fare with its buff and stoic main character, the snivelling bond villains, the badass attitude, etc, do you really argue that simplistic all's-well-that-ends-in-bed romances are out of place?

Not out of place, but they certainly don't do anything toward lifting the game in question out of the mire of mediocrity. Actually, the Witcher in some ways fits into that: buff and stoic main character with badass written all over, fairly cliched villains... but the romance with Triss (no idea about Shani, as I haven't replayed the game yet) is still not exactly the stuff of wish fulfillment. Unless your fantasy is to be manipulated by a powerful sorceress and used to further her political ambitions, I mean.

 

[HanoverF]

Game romances are like game combat : Utter shit in anything with the Bioware label.

fify

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

I'm amused by all this talk about how romances in games lack "realism".

No....it's that they suck at doing just about anything. Plain and simple.

Game romances are like game combat : fantasy. A form of wish fulfillment. Not real. The girls who liked those romances liked them because they were playing out some unrealistic romantic day dream, the exact same daydream you see in just about every romantic comedy. All these attempts to explain how "that's not how it works in real life!!!" are silly. It's a fantasy.

The fuck? Who's fantasy is fulfilled by Bioware romances? Seriously? What the fuck? The problem with Bioware is that in addition to sucking, it isn't a fantasy. Let's run down their male romance options, or at least the one's Gaider may have been involved in.

Hot: Aryan elf babe who is totally into you and seems inexperienced.

Not: More emotional baggage than you can fit on a military cargo plane, constant need for psychotherapy, clingy, prudish, doesn't use contraceptives, and probably was a rape victim.

Biggest Turnoff: In the drow city, when the PC is being...ah...raped I guess by the drow priestess and tries to get out of it by saying you're already hooked up with Aerie, she threatens to have her executed if you don't do her. So you do, and then upon leaving you are bitched out by Aerie, who leaves you. Not a good male fantasy. The proper way to do that would be having the option to grab the drow bitch by the collar and demand a threesome.

---

Hot: Good looking, older elf chick with an attitude and experience.

Not: Getting some dead guy's sloppy seconds bringing a whole new meaning to "the rebound", constantly hearing about said dead guy, getting attacked by her crazy harper friends, getting attacked by her crazy enemies, having her get poisoned and having to fix her up, having her get kidnapped and turned into a vampire, all along with her melting down in front of you constantly.

Biggest Turnoff: You get a cool pin for her that gives stat ups at the end of all this from Ed Greenwood's wizard-dude instead of...you know....getting some. Hope the Bhaalspawn likes the five-knuckle shuffle.

---

Hot: Exotic elf babe who is open to lots o things.

Not: Into BDSM, came from a matriarchal society, and will give you more problems in public than an interracial couple would have in 1950's America. Also is a crazy bitch.

Biggest Turnoff: Feminist society. Nothing is a bigger turnoff in a male fantasy than the woman on top.

---

Hot: Elf paladin babe you totally want to "corrupt"

Not: You don't get any, romancing her is all about listening to her bitch, she ditches you, and then uses you to try and get out of jail but gets executed anyway by Nasher, effectively cock-blocking the hero of Neverwinter after he saved all their ungrateful asses. No wonder he didn't show up in the expansion.

Biggest Turnoff: She ditched you for FUCKING LIZARD PEOPLE!

---

Hot: Uh.....not much. She's there, and the only thing in the party you can hit without being a furry or Roman Polanski.

Not: Everything. Never was described as a bombshell, never put out, was a bitch, dropped family issues left and right, needed fucktons of therapy, was a total bitch, didn't know how to stay out of her man's way (butted in on the Malak fight and screwed everything up), was basically bi-polar, tried to go against you and needed more than a few force-powered bitch slaps, and did I mention she was the biggest bitch in the galaxy?

Biggest Turnoff: Fucking everything. Seriously, what's appealing in any way about this woman? I'm the goddamn Bat...er Dark Lord of the Sith....I can definitely pick up a better woman than this.


Now how are any of those typical male fantasies? These are nothing close to stuff like oh say....

Geralt; who is a sex god who does every peasant, noble, witch, and slightly human but still smoking hot monster woman and does so because every woman wants him because he is STD-proof and sterile.

The Chosen One; Can become a porn-star, nail a mobster's daughter, nail his wife, nail someone in every town, and even pick up perks for all his sexual exploits with nary an STD in sight.

James Bond; Who is smart, suave, deadly, experienced, and shags babes not only as a reward for a job well done, but also as part of the job. Oh, and if he has a dry spell, he's still got the OHMSS secretary who wants him.

Theseus; Kicks the crap out of bandits and then shags all their daughters. Seduces a princess to help him kill a furry, then accidentally has his father commit suicide because he has too busy banging his new bride on the boat trip home to hoist a white sail.

These are male fantasies done right. Not the Bioware head cases. Heck, the closest thing to a male fantasy in a Bioware game was Ashley in Mass Effect, who was only close to that because she was kind of down to earth and not a nutjob like Bioware's other women.

As for the female romances? I really doubt it's every female's fantasy to be awkwardly hit on by a mixture of Ren-Fair pickup lines and emotional dependence. And that leaves Bioware romances out of the fantasy category and squarely in the shitty as all hell category.

Edit: SNIPE MUTHAFUCKAS!