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Obsidian General Discussion Thread

Butter

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
7,523
Look, maybe I’m being too influenced by Feyerabend, but do you seriously think that anybody really having a clear understanding of how you do good films
In the 30s the Big Five were cranking out hundreds of good movies every year by adhering to pretty rigid formulae. Writing really is a craft, and you can become reliably proficient at creating good stories. Human psychology doesn't change very much over time (at least in time spans that relevant to us), so the types of stories we appreciate can be predicted.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Sure. I think "lack of interest" is more pertinent when we see it as an institutional interest (are companies & production processes built to support and pay attention to it) rather than individual psychology. I think there is a severe lack of good tools, process models and learned wisdom across the industry about how you craft truly reactive quests, how you truly write characters that make sense in the context of the world rather than quest dispensers, and so on.

I think CRPG dev folks do understand this - over the last decade one benefit of a more professionalised industry (among many downsides) is a more concerted effort to share tools and tricks about how to do dialogue trees, how to design quests, etc, etc., in trade shows. But all of that remains far, far below the level necessary for the level of writing to rise across the board as opposed to a few talented people.

To an extent, it almost feels like, even in the age of 100 person teams, RPG writing in particular is done in a chaotic and primitive way with nobody really having a clear understanding of what the hell it is or how you do it, often using piledrivers to tie knots and toilet paper to cook lunch.

Look, maybe I’m being too influenced by Feyerabend, but do you seriously think that anybody really have a clear understanding of how you do good films, good novels, or even good science? Not only nobody have a clue, but completely different strategies that are emergent and unplanned flourish in different studios. I don't like these institutional professional approaches. They result in bland and very polished turds. The only variable we can pin down is that quest design must be made by people who have at least a passion and experience with the medium. That is not a sufficient condition for good writing, because what the fuck is, but it seems to be at least a necessary condition. Another variable is that having fewer writers, or especially one writer, helps because the author will be more motivated to make a compelling game instead of being just another name in the credits.

Well, I'm also a Feyerabend fan. And yes, I think a lot of the 'good methods' that we know about, often emerged accidentally out of circumstances that are themselves indifferent to the goal of better writing, and it's only retroactively that we identify them as good methods (sometimes wrongly via cargo cult).

To pick a super basic example, people like Chris Avellone are known to deliberately look to real life history for inspiration. And that seems so obvious because real life will often provide a rich mix of plausibility, motivations, socioeconomic factors, etc. that is very hard to make up in a vacuum. But it's something that really came about with game writers who happened to be history nerds because there was cultural overlap in kind of people who were history nerds and who also did D&D and wargaming. And then it's only retroactively that some people see it as a smart thing to do.

So, actually, I think a video game company sitting down and setting up a committee to very 'rationally' and deliberately come up with a structure on how to encoruage good game writing, can often lead to bureaucratic nonsensical puddle of mush, because it's a process that is artificial to how we usually realise good methods.

If I had some millions right now to fund a game, then going by just what we know in the dark, I believe I'd be most likely to try and look for a single lead writer (with a couple of helpers managed by the lead if practically necessary), someone who has a love/knowledge of real life history (and/or anthropology, mythology, folklore, etc), someone who has some experience with designing gameplay (whether as code, as a mod, or even as a GM). That's all I care about. People these days rage and roar a lot about a huge number of possible secondary proxies - it's easy to mock the creative writing degree dude from california or something, but honestly, I don't care if they're from upper Mongolia. I think the really key factors we know from the last few decades is that it's someone, as you say, with passion and experience for this medium.

And as Shadenuat says, I think the even bigger blindspot is that good editors are really really important and it's even more underappreciated / unknown. If you asked 100 CRPG developers how many people would they know to be really good editors of RPG writing?
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
In the 30s the Big Five were cranking out hundreds of good movies every year by adhering to pretty rigid formulae. Writing really is a craft, and you can become reliably proficient at creating good stories. Human psychology doesn't change very much over time (at least in time spans that relevant to us), so the types of stories we appreciate can be predicted.
Are you a fan of the technical theory of art?
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
To pick a super basic example, people like Chris Avellone are known to deliberately look to real life history for inspiration. And that seems so obvious because real life will often provide a rich mix of plausibility, motivations, socioeconomic factors, etc. that is very hard to make up in a vacuum. But it's something that really came about with game writers who happened to be history nerds because there was cultural overlap in kind of people who were history nerds and who also did D&D and wargaming. And then it's only retroactively that some people see it as a smart thing to do.

But the bitch of the thing is that if a teenager narrative designer reads this post and decides to emulate these people by reading the same material, the result will be complete trash. You can’t copy smart people by doing their thing. It doesn’t work that way. You need to become smart yourself and do your own thing. And you can’t do your own thing at the expanse of the medium. There are no shortcuts and magical formulas.

So, actually, I think a video game company sitting down and setting up a committee to very 'rationally' and deliberately come up with a structure on how to encourage good game writing, can often lead to a bureaucratic nonsensical puddle of mush, because it's a process that is artificial to how we usually realise good methods.

Design by checkbox list.
 

Butter

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
7,523
In the 30s the Big Five were cranking out hundreds of good movies every year by adhering to pretty rigid formulae. Writing really is a craft, and you can become reliably proficient at creating good stories. Human psychology doesn't change very much over time (at least in time spans that relevant to us), so the types of stories we appreciate can be predicted.
Are you a fan of the technical theory of art?
I don't know. Not all movies are art, and not all novels are art, and certainly not all video games are art. It's OK to produce something that's just entertainment.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
To pick a super basic example, people like Chris Avellone are known to deliberately look to real life history for inspiration. And that seems so obvious because real life will often provide a rich mix of plausibility, motivations, socioeconomic factors, etc. that is very hard to make up in a vacuum. But it's something that really came about with game writers who happened to be history nerds because there was cultural overlap in kind of people who were history nerds and who also did D&D and wargaming. And then it's only retroactively that some people see it as a smart thing to do.

But the bitch of the thing is that if a teenager narrative designer reads this post and decides to emulate these people by reading the same material, the result will be complete trash. You can’t copy smart people by doing their thing. It doesn’t work that way. You need to become smart yourself and do your own thing. And you can’t do your own thing at the expanse of the medium. There are no shortcuts and magical formulas.

So, actually, I think a video game company sitting down and setting up a committee to very 'rationally' and deliberately come up with a structure on how to encourage good game writing, can often lead to a bureaucratic nonsensical puddle of mush, because it's a process that is artificial to how we usually realise good methods.

Design by checkbox list.

Oh, certainly. Part of the thing about the way those 'circumstantial', emergent 'good methods' work is that, they are a product of their time and what you are riffing off. If your hero got to their cool invention out of Cold War fears of totalitarianism turned into anti-authoritarian zeal, fine, but that doesn't mean that you copy it 50 years later. The point is not the specific content like 'went to Woodstock' or 'worked for the military' but the way in which they accrued life experience and channeled it into their work.

Also, different people at different times had more or less ability to do that channeling. We know that it was a combination of circumstance that left a young Chris Avellone with the time and freedom to pursue his own maniacal vision for Torment and execute it. For all we know, nu-Obsidian or CDPR or whatever has nipped several new Torments in the bud not intentionally, but simply because they now work in larger companies with a very different workflow. That's why I'm wary of always attributing it all to individual / psychological failures like "oh they are stupider than their predecessors" or "oh they just aren't as interested". I certainly do think that if your dev team is full of people who grew up just playing video games, you will suffer for it. But generally I think a lot of it is how people get set up to do the work.
 

Jarpie

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
6,603
Codex 2012 MCA
I remember Avellone saying that he had by himself to hire editor to work with him, because Obsidian (or publisher) wouldn't pay for one, and I doubt that has changed at all since he left, probably the opposite given how shit the writing was in Outer Worlds from what I played it.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth


Is this game not going to be isometric? Or is he talking about dynamic dialogue portraits with facial expressions or something like that.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
Look like Carrie Patel is Game Director now.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrie-patel-80003aa/

I wish her good luck, maybe she is co game director with Chris Parker?

Pretty sure is for the "Reboot" of Poe, Action RPG Skyrim clone.

4cCqVvFl_400x400.jpg


Carry Patel: I'm a sjw dike who hate my target audience;

Chris Parker: I fuck everything up and I'm single-handed ruined Alpha Protocol.

Another howler of nu-Obsidian in the making.

That should be fun.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,656
She's marred to an Indian, she just wants to look like that for some reason. Hate is also too strong a word, more like a complete lack of interest.

When they asked about her history with roleplaying games, Patel admitted she lacked experience in the types of RPGs that were influencing Pillars of Eternity, but made up for it with her knowledge of writing other types of stories as well as playing other types of story-driven games. She got up to speed on the classics before starting at Obsidian a couple of weeks later. “I did play Planescape: Torment once I got to Obsidian, in part because I knew that was such a big touchstone for us as a company and as the Pillars team, and because it was such a groundbreaking game in terms of narrative design and storytelling in games, but I had not played Baldur’s Gate or Icewind Dale.

Carrie Patel said:
If I can maybe interpret "IE-style game" a little more broadly...

I'd say my favorite is Shadowrun: Hong Kong. I had a lot of fun with it. I loved the style of combat. I loved the world. Fantasy/cyberpunk was a breath of fresh air to me, and a lot of fun to play in. But it was also a really focused game. We've talked a bit about the appeal of shorter games that are still engaging: [Hong Kong is] not super long; the roleplaying opportunities are present, but they are a little more focused; and I still had a great experience with it. I left wanting just a little bit more because I was having a good time, but at no point did I feel bogged down in the experience, like, "Ugh, I've got to finish this game so I can get on with stuff."
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
She's marred to an Indian
She was married to an Indian. There are plenty of women out there that discover their sexual vocations and leave their husbands later on.

she just wants to look like that for some reason
Naive.

Hate is also too strong a word, more like a complete lack of interest.
In the current cultural climate? Please. I remember vividly she was making a tasteless and disrespectful humor tirade against the developers in Obsidian. She was portraying Avellone as a crybaby in her first year there. Imagine how much she despises the men in there. She doesn't fool me. I can smell her type from a mile away.

Edit: there is no need to be upset, Infinitron.
 

Flou

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
869
Location
Hellsinki
How many projects do they have?

Sawyer's Missouri, Cain&Boyarsky are up to something, Badler is a project director, Brennecke is one as well on Grounded and some claim Parker is as well on the next big project. With Patel that makes 6. Has Feargus finally relented and allows people to make smaller projects, instead of making games with the budget of 5-20 million dollars? Even if someone else is the project director on Sawyer's game, that is still 5 projects.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
How many projects do they have?

Sawyer's Missouri, Cain&Boyarsky are up to something, Badler is a project director, Brennecke is one as well on Grounded and some claim Parker is as well on the next big project. With Patel that makes 6. Has Feargus finally relented and allows people to make smaller projects, instead of making games with the budget of 5-20 million dollars? Even if someone else is the project director on Sawyer's game, that is still 5 projects.
Who gives a fuck. They can't make a decent cRPG if their lives depended on it.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
How many projects do they have?

Sawyer's Missouri, Cain&Boyarsky are up to something, Badler is a project director, Brennecke is one as well on Grounded and some claim Parker is as well on the next big project. With Patel that makes 6. Has Feargus finally relented and allows people to make smaller projects, instead of making games with the budget of 5-20 million dollars? Even if someone else is the project director on Sawyer's game, that is still 5 projects.

Matthew Perez: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-perez-4631672a/

Game Director
Dates Employed Jan 2019 – Nov 2019

Carrie Patel: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrie-patel-80003aa/

Game Director
Dates Employed Nov 2019 – Present
 

Ging_Sama

Novice
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
40
How many projects do they have?

Sawyer's Missouri, Cain&Boyarsky are up to something, Badler is a project director, Brennecke is one as well on Grounded and some claim Parker is as well on the next big project. With Patel that makes 6. Has Feargus finally relented and allows people to make smaller projects, instead of making games with the budget of 5-20 million dollars? Even if someone else is the project director on Sawyer's game, that is still 5 projects.

Pretty sure Carrie Patel is Co Game director with Chris Parker on Obsidian "Big AAA Project". Chris Parker is not a world builder/writer but more exec/goal design guy like Casey Hudson. Big Obsidian team +100 dev like Phil Spencer said.

Sawyer team is really small like Brennecke team. 25 split dev on Grounded and Sawyer project.

Badler is Game director on The outer world DLC 30-40 dev

CainBoyarsky pretty sure on small team brainstorming a more ambitious vision of TOW (TOW2) 10 dev
 

Ging_Sama

Novice
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
40
How many projects do they have?

Sawyer's Missouri, Cain&Boyarsky are up to something, Badler is a project director, Brennecke is one as well on Grounded and some claim Parker is as well on the next big project. With Patel that makes 6. Has Feargus finally relented and allows people to make smaller projects, instead of making games with the budget of 5-20 million dollars? Even if someone else is the project director on Sawyer's game, that is still 5 projects.

Matthew Perez: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-perez-4631672a/

Game Director
Dates Employed Jan 2019 – Nov 2019

Carrie Patel: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrie-patel-80003aa/

Game Director
Dates Employed Nov 2019 – Present


Yeah pretty sure Matthew Perez is Lead level designer on this AAA project. Jorge Salgado is Lead area designer and Bobby null the Design director.

Bad ass team !
 

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