Are societies represented well in RPG games?

[Pero_Gamechuck]

So, societies in RPG games... Personally, I could name only a few games that organized the society well in RPG games, both lore-wise and mechanically.

Planescape Torment? The Witcher?

For our game we came up with an idea of a society "caste". We named it "estateology". Since the game is set in the animal kingdom, estateology is a brach of “science” in the Animal Kingdom that tries to explain why certain Animals belong to certain castes.

We took inspiration from the French "estates", or classes.​

It is a form of pseudo-science, even though it is not considered that by the Animals in the Kingdom. We take a cue from real-life existing pseudo-scientific ideas such as Biblical literalist chronology or the descriptive parts of eugenic theories, as well as phrenology, etc.

As our game deals with science and its relation to mythology, this pseudo-science which tries to bridge the two is an important motif that the player will encounter and investigate several times through the course of the game, and will have to form an opinion towards it.

What do you think about our approach?

 

[JarlFrank]

Please stop saying "RPG Game"

Thanks

(also: Morrowind)

 

[Pero_Gamechuck]

Please stop saying "RPG Game"

Thanks

(also: Morrowind)

Eh, it's just a habit.

Also, just Morrowind or The Elder Scrolls as a whole?

 

[JarlFrank]

Just Morrowind. Earlier Elder Scrolls didn't have as much of a worldbuilding focus, later ones shat on all the worldbuilding and turned into generic fantasy without putting any attention on its societies.

Morrowind has:
- native population vs people from other provinces
- foreign Imperial ruling class usually holding positions of wealthy merchants, or serving as soldiers in the Imperial Legion
- native Dunmer politics split into several great houses which all have their own attitudes towards the Empire
- a quite well-developed religion with its own pilgrimage traditions and rites
- dissident priests who disagree with the mainstream temple
- tribal ashlanders living in their own little societies far from the cities
- farmland surrounding the major settlements, so you can see where the food comes from

Morrowind is the RPG that best depicts a society and its varying factions, rather than portraying a whole race as a monocultural block (most RPGs have all dark elves share the same values and lifestyle, in Morrowind there's half a dozen factions with different outlooks on things).

It's not as detailed on the stratification of society though.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Man, Furries are fucking weird.

 

[Humanophage]

I don't have much to contribute, except please don't confuse phrenology and cephalometry/craniometry/anthropometry (physical anthropology). I have encountered that mistake a few times on the Codex and elsewhere.

Phrenology = the surface of your skull has certain irregularities (like bumps) which reflect the shape of your brain, so you can make some conclusions about character by studying the surface of the skull. It was popular in the early 19th century.
Anthropometry = you can measure the physical parameters of people like their nose shape or hirsuteness, and on the basis of that you can classify humanity into regional populations. It was popular until the mid-20th century at which point it became suspect for political reasons.

In addition, there were racial theorists who used physical anthropology. Racial theorists like Madison Grant or Hans Gunther did strongly connect subrace and psychological traits, but they were not phrenologists, and neither used the term nor were concerned with its central tenet about skull surfaces and the brain. They were the people who used terms like Nordic and Dinaric, which they took from physical anthropology, with which they were rather familiar - unlike with phrenology.

As for interesting social structures in recent games, I thought ATOM RPG was pretty good. The interplay of the laissez-faire area, the administrative town, the new gangsters at the factory ("the state as a racket"), and the remaining secret services is a decent reflection of how post-Soviet local governments operated.

 

[Pero_Gamechuck]

Just Morrowind. Earlier Elder Scrolls didn't have as much of a worldbuilding focus, later ones shat on all the worldbuilding and turned into generic fantasy without putting any attention on its societies.

Morrowind has:
- native population vs people from other provinces
- foreign Imperial ruling class usually holding positions of wealthy merchants, or serving as soldiers in the Imperial Legion
- native Dunmer politics split into several great houses which all have their own attitudes towards the Empire
- a quite well-developed religion with its own pilgrimage traditions and rites
- dissident priests who disagree with the mainstream temple
- tribal ashlanders living in their own little societies far from the cities
- farmland surrounding the major settlements, so you can see where the food comes from

Morrowind is the RPG that best depicts a society and its varying factions, rather than portraying a whole race as a monocultural block (most RPGs have all dark elves share the same values and lifestyle, in Morrowind there's half a dozen factions with different outlooks on things).

It's not as detailed on the stratification of society though.

Man, you just reminded me how good Morrowind was. Haven't played that game in ages, and yet I never could get into Skyrim :-(

Btw, I've taken a look at your signature and noticed you're writing books. Holy cow dude, that's nice.

 

[JarlFrank]

Btw, I've taken a look at your signature and noticed you're writing books. Holy cow dude, that's nice.

If you need any additional writers/quest designers...

 

[Sweeper]

Arcanum and New Vegas.
New Vegas is one of the few that goes into detail when it comes to logistics.
Hell, there's quite a few quests specifically designed to deal with resource or trade route problems.
You can say whatever you want about NV, but its world building is on point.

 

[Pero_Gamechuck]

Btw, I've taken a look at your signature and noticed you're writing books. Holy cow dude, that's nice.

If you need any additional writers/quest designers...

Well, who knows, we just might in the future, but for now, we're pretty much covered

 

[Doktor Best]

Please stop saying "RPG Game"

Thanks

(also: Morrowind)

Eh, it's just a habit.

Also, just Morrowind or The Elder Scrolls as a whole?

Doing meth is also a habit bro, that doesn't mean its a wise thing to keep doing it.

 

[anvi]

If a game has societies well represented it probably has shit gameplay.

 

[Pero_Gamechuck]

I don't have much to contribute, except please don't confuse phrenology and cephalometry/craniometry/anthropometry (physical anthropology). I have encountered that mistake a few times on the Codex and elsewhere.

Phrenology = the surface of your skull has certain irregularities (like bumps) which reflect the shape of your brain, so you can make some conclusions about character by studying the surface of the skull. It was popular in the early 19th century.
Anthropometry = you can measure the physical parameters of people like their nose shape or hirsuteness, and on the basis of that you can classify humanity into regional populations. It was popular until the mid-20th century at which point it became suspect for political reasons.

In addition, there were racial theorists who used physical anthropology. Racial theorists like Madison Grant or Hans Gunther did strongly connect subrace and psychological traits, but they were not phrenologists, and neither used the term nor were concerned with its central tenet about skull surfaces and the brain. They were the people who used terms like Nordic and Dinaric, which they took from physical anthropology, with which they were rather familiar - unlike with phrenology.

As for interesting social structures in recent games, I thought ATOM RPG was pretty good. The interplay of the laissez-faire area, the administrative town, the new gangsters at the factory ("the state as a racket"), and the remaining secret services is a decent reflection of how post-Soviet local governments operated.

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question. Some really great insights in your post, although "races" are not the topic of our game in any shape or form, if that's what you are alluding

I never played ATOM RPG, seems like Fallout 2 spiritual successor. Wishlisted it.

When it comes to social structures, I just remembered how Papers, Please perfectly depicted the social structures during Soviet Union

 

[Mortmal]

Please stop saying "RPG Game"

Thanks

(also: Morrowind)

No! When a developper says RPG game we can be pretty of the quality of product he will deliver, so it helps us to not waste time.

 

[DalekFlay]

Not exactly what you're looking for but since I never miss a chance to pimp one of the few good modern AAA game series... The Dishonored series has a very good representation of the bourgeoisie lord and lady class and the downtrodden workers beneath them. You spend a lot of time in high society either undercover or in stealth mode, and you also spend a lot of time around the bottom rung, visually seeing the effects. In one level you even convert an area of the city from a ghetto to a more middle-class sanctuary via time travel, by effecting how the local lord rules. It's also the only game I can think of with a brothel where the girls come off as miserable slaves to the rich rather than horny party girls.

 

[V_K]

Jeff Vogel's better games often have some sort of social conflict at their core. For example, in the Geneforge series you have:
- shapers, a caste mages with the power to create life, as a ruling class;
- their sentient creations, who are basically their slaves;
- humans working for the shapers freely and independent humans;
- rebel creations fighting for their freedom from the shapers;
- rebel humans fighting to make the secrets of shaping available to everybody;
- humans from another continent, who see the practice of shaping as an abomination to be abolished.
And then the plot of the games basically follows the story of this rebellion from different perspectives.

 

[Pero_Gamechuck]

Not exactly what you're looking for but since I never miss a chance to pimp one of the few good modern AAA game series... The Dishonored series has a very good representation of the bourgeoisie lord and lady class and the downtrodden workers beneath them. You spend a lot of time in high society either undercover or in stealth mode, and you also spend a lot of time around the bottom rung, visually seeing the effects. In one level you even convert an area of the city from a ghetto to a more middle-class sanctuary via time travel, by effecting how the local lord rules. It's also the only game I can think of with a brothel where the girls come off as miserable slaves to the rich rather than horny party girls.

Yes, good one. Dishonored is one of the rare action First Person games (can't call it an FPS) with very developed lore, accompanied with an amazing atmosphere. The only similar games that I can think of that managed to pull the similar are System Shock/Bioshock and Half-Life.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Well, Morrowind was already mentioned.

Dwarves in dragon age have a house-based caste society. Quick rundown from what I can remember: Caste is inherited from your same-sex parent and much of your life is determined at birth, paragons are the 'elite' above the caste system(not to be confused with the noble caste,) dwarves who go to the surface become casteless. Lower-caste houses swear fealty to higher-caste houses above them, warriors and smiths that swear fealty to prestigious nobles would likewise be considered prestigious themselves... until the noble house's standing falls, and theirs along with it.
I believe in the dwarf ending to DAO your dwarf gets elevated to being a warrior caste and therefore your entire house(with you as its leader) does as well, so I assume the caste of the house follows the caste of its leader.

 

[occident]

societies are not well represented in video games because video game developers, similarly to you, rarely have a functional understanding of society and human nature

the story of the past 400 years has been class conflict, and you, mindlessly and unwittingly parroting postmodern philosophy, decide to depict emergent social systems as being pseudo-scientific, ultimately making the claim that human behavior has no inherent meaning

condescending commentary on society by unsophisticated intellectual-yet-idiots is not a firm foundation for a game, and anything born of it could only ever be enjoyed through the self indulgence of boorish midwits

a superficial, materialist, pop "Science" worldview precludes worthwhile artistic endeavor

abandon your ego, go play Disco Elysium, and take notes, because it is currently the best example of the kind of game you are trying to make

 

[Alex_Gamechuck]

societies are not well represented in video games because video game developers, similarly to you, rarely have a functional understanding of society and human nature

the story of the past 400 years has been class conflict, and you, mindlessly and unwittingly parroting postmodern philosophy, decide to depict emergent social systems as being pseudo-scientific, ultimately making the claim that human behavior has no inherent meaning

condescending commentary on society by unsophisticated intellectual-yet-idiots is not a firm foundation for a game, and anything born of it could only ever be enjoyed through the self indulgence of boorish midwits

a superficial, materialist, pop "Science" worldview precludes worthwhile artistic endeavor

abandon your ego, go play Disco Elysium, and take notes, because it is currently the best example of the kind of game you are trying to make

Wow this is really the most downer comment ever. But let me try to salvage your opinion, as the let's say "producer" of this game. So the game is actually written by the lead writer who was added to the project due to his portfolio and successes (master of creative writing from Brunel University London, published some novels, wrote a small game for us which was so cool that Humble Bundle added it to its Originals list, etc). And also by me. Speaking of class conflict, if you think we don't 'get' it, just read this part of the blogpost (which I wrote after reading 10 Days that Shook the World and was heavily inspired by the October revolution, most of the quotes in the blogpost are slightly changed quotes by/from the people from that period, that's a cute detail but whatever):
https://www.tripthearkfantastic.com/ark-lore-tuesday/the-tale-of-coriolanus/

Or for a more concrete example of "class-awareness" (or at least the awareness that classes are inherently in conflict which cannot be resolved amicably but only within a framework of struggle e.g. unionizing etc), check out the company values themselves - game-chuck.com/about-us

I don't know if there is a game development company with a more pronounced pro-union pro-class-struggle agenda in my country... But okay, I guess if you just came here after reading this article it must have seemed like pseudo-intellectual BS. The point is: THIS *IS* THE PSEUDO-INTELLECTUAL BS!!! IN-GAME!!! This is the phrenology/racial-science equivalent in our game... How is that missable? I literally wrote it in the blog... Oh well...

Btw. as for Disco Elysium, it's literally our lead writers top favourite game

 

[Alpan]

intellectual-yet-idiots

How long has it been since you read your Taleb? Three days?

 

[V_K]

Btw. as for Disco Elysium, it's literally our lead writers top favourite game

This really doesn't speak in your lead writer's favor.

 

[Alex_Gamechuck]

Why not? The game is reaching my top game very fast as well. Almost knocking down previous ones (Grim Fandango and Planescape: Torment). Of course time will tell if it is just the "wow" effect of something new FINALLY getting to be that good or really an epic title.

 

[howlingFantods]

Why not? The game is reaching my top game very fast as well. Almost knocking down previous ones (Grim Fandango and Planescape: Torment). Of course time will tell if it is just the "wow" effect of something new FINALLY getting to be that good or really an epic title.

Some Codexers have a heuristic that goes something like “new = bad” and sometimes “popular and new = especially bad”. I thinks it’s absurd to claim that Disco Elysium has bad writing. It can be overmuch and it does miss the mark at times, but overall its writing is better than the vast majority of RPGs

 

[DalekFlay]

the story of the past 400 years has been class conflict

We keep improving how the lower classes live and they keep bitching about it, yes.