Incline Colony Ship Combat Beta Thread

[jackofshadows]

Guys, are there consequances of allowing Vasquez to join you? If yes - which ones?

You can't keep him and kiss the Winfield's gums at the same time.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There will be plenty of combat in close quarters (you enter a bar, a whorehouse, headquarters, warehouse, etc and a fight starts).

Silent Storm and modded X-com both had small maps while still having (superior) LOS based mechanics.

Their small maps were still huge compared to standard 'enter a relatively small place and fight' setup typical of RPGs. The beauty of Silent Storm was the sandboxy design - you could approach the target from different directions and the destructible environment helped a lot. Yet whenever scripting kicked in and forced you into an ambush, all bets were off and half of your team could be killed by SMG fire.

X-COM had a similar design: the maps gave you all the flexibility you needed but the close quarters combat was brutal and fast. You could open a door and get shot in the face, especially in the sequel. Unless you mean the new games where the difficulty was neutered by the pod activation mechanics: the enemy does nothing until you activate them, so you activate them when you still have all your turns and quickly kill most of them. You always had initiative unless you screw up and depletable armor played the role of padding allowing you to survive the first attack.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Silent Storm and modded X-com both had small maps while still having (superior) LOS based mechanics.

They were tactical games, dumbfuck. CAN'T YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE? In a full-fledged cRPG the developer needs to invest in writing, quests, reactivity, exploration... you know, all those things you don't have in a tactical game. This cRPG doesn't play like a tactical game because it was never intended to be one.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

As someone mentioned in the this thread (or the other, forgot which one), it's because the gears also got a part in doing the lifting. You can gain THC (plus or malus), crit chance, aimed chance, reaction, penetration etc etc from your weapons. And then there's also the implants, and its upgrades. And then you also have other utilities and consumables, so I think the devs did it right by toning down the results you can gain from skills alone.

It is because in learning by using system you can't invest all your SPs in one skill and become unstoppable after a few fights. It is a good thing.

I think most of the difficulty in the demo comes from us players being cheap bastards. We want to win without using consumables, even if we have at least one grenade for each fight. I'm always "save before fight, try to win without using consumables, fail, reload, use grenade, steamroll".

If you are not a cheap bastard, you die. The consumables are limited and you need to rely on your skills, sooner or later.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Silent Storm and modded X-com both had small maps while still having (superior) LOS based mechanics.

They were tactical games, dumbfuck. CAN'T YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE? In a full-fledged cRPG the developer needs to invest in writing, quests, reactivity, exploration... you know, all those things you don't have in a tactical game. This cRPG doesn't play like a tactical game because it was never intended to be one.

It's not even that. A game like Jagged Alliance or Silent Storm can give you a huge map filled with enemies, point at the distant target and let you fight your way there. It's loads of fun but can't really work in a proper RPG, the best way to illustrate it is the difference between Fallout 1-2 and Fallout: Tactics.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

It's not even that. A game like Jagged Alliance or Silent Storm can give you a huge map filled with enemies, point at the distant target and let you fight your way there. It's loads of fun but can't really work in a proper RPG, the best way to illustrate it is the difference between Fallout 1-2 and Fallout: Tactics.

It is as if someone complained that the races in KOTOR 2 were bad because some race game is better. Of course it is.

 

[orcinator]

There will be plenty of combat in close quarters (you enter a bar, a whorehouse, headquarters, warehouse, etc and a fight starts).

Silent Storm and modded X-com both had small maps while still having (superior) LOS based mechanics.

Their small maps were still huge compared to standard 'enter a relatively small place and fight' setup typical of RPGs. The beauty of Silent Storm was the sandboxy design - you could approach the target from different directions and the destructible environment helped a lot. Yet whenever scripting kicked in and forced you into an ambush, all bets were off and half of your team could be killed by SMG fire.

X-COM had a similar design: the maps gave you all the flexibility you needed but the close quarters combat was brutal and fast. You could open a door and get shot in the face, especially in the sequel. Unless you mean the new games where the difficulty was neutered by the pod activation mechanics: the enemy does nothing until you activate them, so you activate them when you still have all your turns and quickly kill most of them. You always had initiative unless you screw up and depletable armor played the role of padding allowing you to survive the first attack.

Yes they were better games with deeper tactical option and less reliance on Your Numbers vs. Their Numbers vs. RNGesus's favor. I already knew that.

They were tactical games, dumbfuck. CAN'T YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE? In a full-fledged cRPG the developer needs to invest in writing, quests, reactivity, exploration... you know, all those things you don't have in a tactical game. This cRPG doesn't play like a tactical game because it was never intended to be one.

I played the demo, I already know it will have bad gameplay, that's why I'm going to avoid the combatfag run.

 

[Darth Canoli]

DISCLAIMER: The following statement does not imply the game balance is perfect.

I think most of the difficulty in the demo comes from us players being cheap bastards. We want to win without using consumables, even if we have at least one grenade for each fight. I'm always "save before fight, try to win without using consumables, fail, reload, use grenade, steamroll".

I don't like using grenades that much, first, it feels like flushing cash down the toilet, then it cost AP you could use to shot someone and improve a combat skill.
And it doesn't even do direct damage ...

X-COM had a similar design: the maps gave you all the flexibility you needed but the close quarters combat was brutal and fast. You could open a door and get shot in the face

It's a different design, with map exploration and the thrill of discovering an alien waiting for you with a plasma rifle behind a tree.
You didn't even had to open a door, during night missions, it you didn't extensively used the throwing light item, they'd just shoot half your team before you even spot them.

Of course, maps being way larger, you had more options to change the outcome when reloading but it's quite the same.

One thing all the legendary combat focused cRPG and tactical have in common is the combat difficulty; At least until mid-game, it's hard to keep challenging the player until the end without alienating more than half the player base.

Yes they were better games with deeper tactical option and less reliance on Your Numbers vs. Their Numbers vs. RNGesus's favor. I already knew that.

Better, we don't know yet, do you have early combat demos of these games to compare ?
Less reliance on RNG is wrong too, did you even do a UFO ironman run ?
It's painful alright, either you play extremely cautiously (which is boring with the amount of tactical missions you'll have to play) or half your team will be rookies at all times ...
UFO is one of those games where you save every starting turn just in case ...

 

[Fenix]

You can't keep him and kiss the Winfield's gums at the same time.

OK, who is this Winfied then?


Met AND beat REAL Brotherhood guys, not those cheap gun thugs.
Next is someone named Carter...

 

[jackofshadows]

OK, who is this Winfied then?

Sorry, forgot that you didn't reach the end yet. It's the leader of the last possible fight squad.

 

[Fenix]

It is because in learning by using system you can't invest all your SPs in one skill and become unstoppable after a few fights. It is a good thing.

Well, what if I want to try some specific build, very much focused on something?
CS system mean - as I see it - that combat could be very much the samey in the early and even mid-game for every build, you can't like in AoD/DR start with focused spear build and get distngushable gameplay right from start.
This is my concern arised after your words.

I suggest maybe at least for tactical addon return to AoD\DR system?

 

[Fenix]

Sorry, forgot that you didn't reach the end yet. It's the leader of the last possible fight squad.

So you can avoid fight if Vasquez is gone? Well...

 

[Takamori]

RNG is fine.
Just had to reload a lot during the major final combat because its meant to be difficult. But the other fights with a solid build at worst case scenario 3-4 times due getting my ass crited.

 

[Elhoim]

Next is someone named Carter...

You are almost there! This one is the last mandatory fight. The rest is optional.

So you can avoid fight if Vasquez is gone? Well...

Even if he's there, if you don't mind him being shot in the face.

 

[Trash Player]

It might be just me, but compared to AoD, the ranks in weapon skills feel really lacklustre. In AoD, I really felt each and every rank in weapon skill or dodge, but here I had no such impression, instead feeling as though the stats did all the heavy lifting. Might just be a psychological effect of getting to put points into stats but not skills, but I'd still like to know how it compares to AoD model.

You are not wrong. In AoD, Per gives +5 blanket acc, relevant stats give +3 to their groups. Skill gives +10. CS has skill bonus reduced to +5 and removes for the time being non-Per stat bonus. Evasion is changed to 1 per Dex/Per instead of 3 per relevant stats and 2 per Con. Criticals are very dependent on weapons and attack types rather than character progression since Critical strike skill gives a whooping 1% per point and the feats marginally better, there is no vsCS stat anymore but a feat can still do that and more. Feats give in general +10 or 2 points worth of bonus.
Weapons give similar bonus for their tier between both games but there are more specialization between types, even from the same weapon group. So they end up playing a bigger role than character progression alone. Then there are the smoke and flashbang, even the lowest grade gives some 60 odd penalty to their victims, that is more than 10 skills worth. Gadgets can give similar bonus and there are less ways to playaround them. Lastly, Cover is 25 for light and 35 for heavy, while they can be compromised, are still hefty.

 

[Elhoim]

You are not wrong. In AoD, Per gives +5 blanket acc, relevant stats give +3 to their groups. Skill gives +10. CS has skill bonus reduced to +5 and removes for the time being non-Per stat bonus. Evasion is changed to 1 per Dex/Per instead of 3 per relevant stats and 2 per Con. Criticals are very dependent on weapons and attack types rather than character progression since Critical strike skill gives a whooping 1% per point and the feats marginally better, there is no vsCS stat anymore but a feat can still do that and more. Feats give in general +10 or 2 points worth of bonus.
Weapons give similar bonus for their tier between both games but there are more specialization between types, even from the same weapon group. So they end up playing a bigger role than character progression alone. Then there are the smoke and flashbang, even the lowest grade gives some 60 odd penalty to their victims, that is more than 10 skills worth. Gadgets can give similar bonus and there are less ways to playaround them. Lastly, Cover is 25 for light and 35 for heavy, while they can be compromised, are still hefty.

Yeah, in AoD the bulk of the progression was on the skill system (hence the importance to metagame every point). Here we off-loaded some of it to the feats, implants and equipment. They still matter (especially for checks), but they aren't defining as in AoD.

 

[Shadenuat]

I like too, but here it not just matters, it's a mandatory. If for example in the fight with the laser pistol guy you won't move first, chances are he will kill you in his first turn (or his buddies).

Unless you activate a gadget or fall back.

Anyway, what solution would you propose? Someone has to shoot first. We can lower the enemies' THC but that would make the game too easy. We can lower damage but that would be a war of attrition. A gadget or energy armor seems to be the best solution.

ye old d20 limits actions during surprise round to 1 standard or 1 move.

 

[PlanHex]

Is it intentional that we can't heal outside of combat after the fight before taking the elevator, even with healing items?

 

[Corvinus]

I won't spoil myself this time around, like I did with Age of Decadence's combat demo... But I just want to say that Colony Ship seems to shape up very nicely. Best of luck to you, Elhoim and Vault Dweller. Looking forward to the finished product!

 

[Elhoim]

Is it intentional that we can't heal outside of combat after the fight before taking the elevator, even with healing items?

Not really, we still haven't implemented out of combat healing options.

 

[Fenix]

Well, mutants are the hardest bunch in demo.
At least for my party - they all win initiative and like, there is no chance character survive two consecutive shots from energy rifle...

I won once but lost 2 of my guys.

Eh?...
???...

 

[Binky]

10 charisma run. All three implants - none upgraded. Had shield gadget first, later used the the second disruption field.

• Billy. Feats: charger, fast draw, rifleman, second wind. Weapons: Long John rifle (worth every penny) & energy rifle. Sniper. Usual modus operandi: head shot & center mass. Charger is a very useful feat. Later gave him the shield.
• Mason. Feats: warrior, berserker, fast draw, charger. Weapons: Kinetic hammer (bought it as soon as I could) & shotgun. Gave him a disruption field and usually parked him up front. Goddamn beast.
• Halston. Feats: gunner, controled burst, fast draw, second wind. Weapons: Rusted cobra/cobra for aimed bursts & spitfire for reactions. Reaction fire was very nice. Gave him the power armor.

Hard Ben was the hardest fight. Had to start far away in cover, used a poison and a smoke grenade, and forced him to chase me and unwittingly expose his back to me. Got lucky the third time. Otherwise would have used more grenades.

Spoiler

Carter was second hardest. I was breezing through fights and got lazy, careless, and complacent. Didn't even bother turning the gadgets on. Carter kicked my teeth in. Had to bait him into the reaction crossfire. Got him staggered and exposed (I love shotguns). Used a flashbang too. Durable Mason (thank Christ for disruption field and his high hp) knocked him down. The rest shot him to pieces.

Winfield was third hardest. Fucking Winnie the Pooh went straight for poor Billy. Fight was buggy. Had to use Mason to go around his shield and bypass his "blocked" mode. Only Mason could hit him and only from behind.

Spoiler

Final stats

Spoiler

Grenade bug

Spoiler

Rag doll bug. Sharpshooter's dead body got kicked like a football across the arena. Was triggered by Grinder moving into his tile, I guess. I was too stunned to take a screenshot while he way flying through the air. Strangely enough, his name remained in place.

Spoiler

Interesting reaction: Had a blade and a gun equipped. Stood next to an enemy. He moved away and first got stabbed and then shot.
I was wrong about there being no decent guns available on my ranged tutorial run. Could have bought the Bulldog after the first fight.

 

[Shadenuat]

Well, mutants are the hardest bunch in demo.
At least for my party - they all win initiative and like, there is no chance character survive two consecutive shots from energy rifle...

I won once but lost 2 of my guys.

Eh?...
???...

muties have sorta oddball builds. they're actually super fragile and not very smart but have shields n weapons n stuff.

for comparison my shotgun char killed all of them in like 2 turns. rifle/smg turned to be harder. others easier.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

muties have sorta oddball builds. they're actually super fragile and not very smart but have shields n weapons n stuff.

for comparison my shotgun char killed all of them in like 2 turns. rifle/smg turned to be harder. others easier.

The grass is always greener with other builds.

 

[Shadenuat]

well I remember like guy with rifle has 30 something hp, but he has super powerful weapon and I think some armor. invis guy also has no hp, but he is invis and hits hard. and some other guy has, again, no hp but he has energy shield but that means he has weak base DR.

all that just melts to shotguns and some other builds that can just do hurr raw damage (even extra damage on graze is kinda useful there); but then I had a lot of trouble with weapons which don't.

and yeah they have good ini maybe.

honestly they look like a party of glasscanons I would make