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Warlocks on RPG's. Which one do you prefer?

Cryomancer

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here are many definitions of warlock. But for this topic, i will define warlock as a otherworldly version of a wizard. Just like a druid is a natureish version of divine caster. Often their eldritch knowledge involves becoming a apprentice/servant of a otherworldly being. They are not clerics that draws their power from a deity. Otherwise, what is the difference between being a Raven Queen warlock and a Raven Queen servant?

The first iteration of warlock on D&D was on 3.5e Complete Arcane sourcebook. Warlocks in that edition had no limit on how much invocations thay can cast and their invocations was good as Sorcerer's/Wizards spells and some times better versions of the Sorcerer's/Wizards.

The first CRPG which i saw warlock was the NWN2 but i din't liked warlocks on nwn2. I only started to love the class once i found the warlock reworked mod. Which fixes a lot of problems like >
  • The DC of your Eldritch Blast is bugged
  • The game threats you as a half level caster to overcome spell resistance.
  • lot of invocations that on P&P are improvements over Sorc/Wiz spells like wall of Wall of Perilous Flame are NERFED in relation to Sorc/Wiz spells. World of change is probably the most extreme case of a huge nerf. A DARK invocation that you can only obtain at lv 16+, near end game, would be only useful among lv 1 to 6 thanks to his nerfs.
  • Other invocations are nerfed on warlock and on "sorc/wiz" counterpart. Tentacles having a fix +5 AB means 5% change of hitting any enemy with more than 25 AC. And allowing a fort save instead of a grapple check kills the invocation. On P&P is caster level + 8 to hit and the grapple also scales with CL.
  • The dead walk limited to only one summon.
  • You can't get feats that you can on P&P like point blank attack
  • A lot of things like Eldritch Glaive that allow you to excel on melee got removed from the game.
  • (...)
A class very MECHANIC similar to 3.5e warlock on Pathfinder is Kineticist. But Kineticists aren't thematically similar to warlocks, they manipulate more the elements than eldritch otherworldly forces. Among the similarities

  • Deadly earth is similar to chilling tentacles
  • Wall infusion to the wall of perilous flame
  • A lot of form infusions, resembles the eldritch blast shape invocations on 3.5e

Pathfinder Kingmaker received a kineticist class which is not nerfed compared to P&P but has no elements like chaos, aether and wood.


D&D 5e received massive changes to warlocks. They no longer have unlimited power BUT their power can be regain in a short rest instead of a long rest from other casters. 4e IDK much about warlocks on 4e, but in general, a lot of DM's was reluctant on allowing 3.5e warlocks and now, seems that DM's encourages players to be warlocks over wizards


But in general, everything that is possible to do with 3.5e warlocks, you can do in 5e with less raw destructive eldritch power. Including a melee warlock with the pact of the blade. A pact of blade warlock is not the eldritch claive monster of 5e, but is a amazing warrior with supporting magic that CAN'T BE DISARMED. The damage of Eldritch Blast is lower but still formidable. A lv 17 warlock on 5e can be deadly as a squad of 4 heavy crossbowmans with force crossbows and unlimited ammo.Warlocks has way less versatility than Wizards BUT only needs a short rest to regain most of his powers up to tier 5 spells.

DDO also butchered D&D rules but warlocks are amazing in DDO. On DDO Warlocks also doesn't have 4 tiers of invocations(least/lesser/great/dark) nor 9 like on 5e, they have 6 but they can learn powerful spells like Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Trap the Soul and Wail of the Banshee https://ddowiki.com/page/Warlock_spells

Despite only having 3 pacts to choose form, each pact changes a lot on the gameplay. To not say that i hate all rule alterations, DDO did some things that i loved. For example, Eldritch Blast now has partially force damage and partially elemental. The pact also gives unique spells.
  • The archfey gives SONIC, a element rarely resisted BUT subjected to evasion and improved evasion
  • The great old one, ACID damage. And has a WILL save.
  • The fiend, FIRE damage and has a FORT save. Synergies well with tieflings
7ghFxg8.png

source https://ddowiki.com/page/Warlock

I personally don't like much the number inflation of DDO, nor cooldowns. But DDO has one of the best warlock iterations if compared to complete butchering like nwn2. Other amazing implementation of warlocks is the NWN1 - PRC mod. The mod adds so many new things and includes even epic feats. World of changing can transform the enemy into a chicken, permanently which is far worst than die IMO,; like on P&P. And you can summon summon armies. PRC also did a amazing job with other classes;

z2EoIXA.png


d83t44j.png

Pathfinder 1e also has a class similar to 5e warlock. Witches. There are differences, like instead of Eldritch Blast, he/she can use Hexes at will and her familiar works like a wizard spell book. The mod call of the wild offers a witch. And Witches will be available on the new Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous game Game, according to their kickstarter page. I plan to do a winter witch using major-ice-tomb hex.

---------------------------------------------------------

TL;DR - The point of being a warlock is to throw tentacles into succubus and a overall analyzes of warlocks in many games.
 

Lurker47

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If Baldur's Gate 3 releases and does not have warlocks, I am going to firebomb Belgium.
 

Chippy

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
My favourite class used to be Ranger/Stalker for roleplaying reasons in BG, then I got so fed up being underpowered, I went over to Warlock in NWN2.

Somebody out there has a sense of humor.

As the OP illustrated: years later and thing haven't improved much for either class.
 

Cryomancer

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My favourite class used to be Ranger/Stalker for roleplaying reasons in BG, then I got so fed up being underpowered, I went over to Warlock in NWN2.

Somebody out there has a sense of humor.

Just install warlock reworked. But on NWN2, Ranger is underpowered because on P&P, ranger is underpowered. Warlock is underpowered on NWN2 due the Sawyerism/Butchering of the class, not because is UP on P&P. The Butchering transformed a flying, invisible, teleporting tentacles gatling gun of death that can grapple even the toughest guys and transform then into chickens with unlimited power into a "lesser archer". You still can enjoy a powerful warlock if you install mods that makes nwn2 more P&P like, play NWN1 with PRC or play P&P D&D 3;5e/5e.

If Baldur's Gate 3 releases and does not have warlocks(...)

LOL

I believe that they will be even on early access.

And Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous will have Witches. I wanna make a Winter Witch.

Idk why but this thread reminded me of Bishops in Wizardry

IDK why but this awnser reminded me of Necromancers on Grimoire.
 

PapaPetro

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At-will SLAs back in 3.5 was OP in PnP. Even unlimited lvl-0 Acid Splash could break a campaign since you could just tunnel through everything since acid damage ignored object hardness (allowing you to tunnel through pretty much everything given enough time). So the Warlock getting a bunch of of ranged damage and utility at-will SLAs was completely broken; it was a spellcaster that never ran out of spells.
Fun to play but was a one man cheese factory. Nothing quite like spamming a battlefield with lvl 4 Evard's Black Tentacles and dark and then blasting away till nothing is left...

The DDO Warlock is also OP as a pure class when TRing (true resurrecting, which was the game's primary grind loop outside of gear drop grinding). You could solo everything as as a pure Warlock and it even had a powerful AoE aura for it's eldritch blast so you could just go on autopilot as you walk through quests.

I liked the RP element of Warlocks with them having to deal with their various sources of their powers, but would've liked to seen more maluses and negative conciquences to such Faustian bargains; a mechanic where the more you overuse your powers the more corrupted you got until you lose control of your PC. Stuff like that.
I'm fine with power, as long as it comes with an equally consequential cost.
 

CappenVarra

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The Unwelcome Warlock: A Legend of Ethshar (The Legends of Ethshar Book 11)

EDIT: all P&P rulesets and cRPGs you mention are horrible
 

Cryomancer

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Wait you mean this guy?

Is this a wow warlock?

His armor is extremely carnavalesque

So the Warlock getting a bunch of of ranged damage and utility at-will SLAs was completely broken; it was a spellcaster that never ran out of spells.

Except that on NWN2, EVERYONE can rest scum literally after each encounter. That way, having at will invocations is not a big deal.

Note that a lot of DM's banned 3.5e warlocks because they was too powerful. With 5e, i see DM's encouraging picking then over wizards.

4 Evard's Black Tentacles and dark and then blasting away till nothing is left...

Technically chilling tentacle is a tier 5/6 spell eqquivalent(NOT SURE) since it is black tentacles + 2d6 cold damage. But that invocation is uterlly useless on nwn2. You will never hit anything with a fix +5 AB. On P&P you have Caster Level + 8 AB and the grapple routine is extremely more unforgiving.

but would've liked to seen more maluses and negative conciquences to such Faustian bargains; a mechanic where the more you overuse your powers the more corrupted you got until you lose control of your PC. Stuff like that.

The problem is that you are seeing warloks as someone who draws their power from a patron, rather than being a apprentice of that said patron. There are no point of having warlock of raven queen and clerics of raven queen if both are the same. But there are mechanics for that on 3.5e. If you are a chaotic good WLK and become neutral good WLK, you can no longer level up warlock. You don't lose magical powers like a paladin because as i've said, you are a apprentice, not a cleric of your patron.

Aa for DDO WLK, the eldritch aura that allow you to solo everything is non P&P based... I have a epic level WLK on DDO.

EDIT: all P&P rulesets and cRPGs you mention are horrible

Why? And which rules are good in your opinion?
 

Fenris 2.0

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Warlock means "Oath-Breaker" in old english. IMO the Class makes only Sense when there is a strong Mage-Guild (WoW) or Druid-Guild (Might & Magic or Shannara IIRC) which they can betray, or magic is otherwise heavy regulated. Otherwise they are just Cultists or mad Scientists. It should be a Prestige-Class in D&D 3.5 Terms IMO.

Edit:
There are some Versions of germanic Mythology, that I really like:
The old norse Gods didn't judge between good or evil, but between honorable and dishonorable. You could only get to Walhalla if you died honorable in Combat. Else you were send to Hel, where it's cold, boring and miserable. But there was one special Place in Hel for the Oath-Breakers, where they were tortured by Demons for Eternity.
 
Last edited:

Cryomancer

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It should be a Prestige-Class in D&D 3.5 Terms IMO.

About WLK being a prestige class on 3.5e, on 2e they was a wizard kit(similar to subclass on the most recent edition)

Why are there any warlocks on my RPGS? Get them the hell off and back inside!

They can send you to hell :P

-----------------------

Anyway, the reason to WLK Butchering on NWN2 but not on DDO is simple. Nobody would pay for a "premium" class in a mmo if that class is completely Butchered. DDO still a abomination with cooldowns and number inflation but between playing as a wlk on nwn2 and on ddo, i chose ddo. Class butchering is worse than mmo bullshit.
 

Fenris 2.0

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About WLK being a prestige class on 3.5e, on 2e they was a wizard kit(similar to subclass on the most recent edition)

Cool, I don't remember. Do you know in wich Book they were introduced ? I can't find them in my "Alles ĂĽber den Magier (Everything about Magic-Users)" Handbook, maybe they where translated as Witch. 2nd Ed. Translations where horrible - especially the Goldbox Games :(
 

Cryomancer

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Cool, I don't remember. Do you know in wich Book they were introduced ? I can't find them in my "Alles ĂĽber den Magier (Everything about Magic-Users)" Handbook, maybe they where translated as Witch. 2nd Ed. Translations where horrible - especially the Goldbox Games :(

The Complete Wizard's Handbook. According to 1d4chan.

"In 2nd ed AD&D, a character could take a class kit, which was essentially a set of alternate class features that you could take to add a different play style to a class. Such kits required you to meet certain requirements to take them though. In the The Complete Wizard's Handbook, there was a Wizard kit called the Witch. In the description of the Witch kit, it is mentioned that most Witches are female, but male Witches are possible, being commonly referred to as Warlocks. The Witch kit states that the power the Witch gains, is taught to them by extraplanar entities, (...)Unlike traditional Wizards, a Witch needed to be more than just Intelligent, requiring decent Wisdom and Constitution scores as well. While this kit is not an official Warlock class, it was the first time the themes of the Warlock made it into a player class." https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warlock#2e

Note the word. Is TAUGHT. Is not "given". A lot of people believe that warlocks draw their power from their patron but in reality, they are just "outsiderish wizards" just like a Druid is a "natureish" divine caster. I don't know much about 2e details. Never found the complete Wizard handbook.

IMO 3e should have maintained sorcerers and warlocks as "subwizard classes" but is just my opinion.
 
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Ninjerk

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Imagine being a dress-wearer that gets neutralized by this
330px-450px-%28Thumbcuffs_Bondage%29_Model_Ina.jpg
 

Cryomancer

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Imagine being a dress-wearer that gets neutralized by this

Imagine being a warrior and being disarmed. Good lucky putting this things in a flying, teleporting invisible tentacle Gatling gun that can send you to hell or transform you into a chicken and has unlimited use of his power... It would only give something like 80% arcane failure on spells with somatic component. HE can try all day to get free.

PS : Warlocks on 3.5e can cast inside light armor and even medium at cost of feats. And many invocations doesn't require somatic components. So, no "robes" required.
 

Norfleet

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Otherwise they are just Cultists or mad Scientists.
Mostly just cultists. To be a mad scientist, you have to actually be doing some kind of science. What hypothesis are warlocks testing? Most mad "scientists" do stuff like "destroying the world". But what mad hypothesis does this prove?

Ultimately, someone who did something like this would come off as more mad than the typical mad "scientist", who ultimately has largely comprehensible, and entirely non-scientific, motivations. Destroying the world merely because the world laughed at you isn't science, it's just petty revenge. Destroying HALF the world for SCIENCE, while leaving the other hand untouched to serve as a control group, merely to test your Mad Hypothesis, THAT is Mad Science.
 

PapaPetro

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but would've liked to seen more maluses and negative conciquences to such Faustian bargains; a mechanic where the more you overuse your powers the more corrupted you got until you lose control of your PC. Stuff like that.

The problem is that you are seeing warloks as someone who draws their power from a patron, rather than being a apprentice of that said patron. There are no point of having warlock of raven queen and clerics of raven queen if both are the same. But there are mechanics for that on 3.5e. If you are a chaotic good WLK and become neutral good WLK, you can no longer level up warlock. You don't lose magical powers like a paladin because as i've said, you are a apprentice, not a cleric of your patron.

That's a good point with the overlap between Clerics and Warlocks over the same patron. I've always seen the former as a active promoter of the patron's ideology/philosophies, while the latter takes on a more promethean role with the relationship; he's dealing with this entity for his own ends rather for the glory of the patron. So I've always seen Warlocks as non-divine, but "stealing from the Gods" for their own personal goals and power. From the patron's perspective, I imagine they tolerate the relationship in some grander scheme, but there should be some manifested payoff and consequence to the pact since mortals shouldn't be constantly pulling fast ones on deities and getting away with it. Just attribute-wise, the immortal patrons are beings with godlike Int-Wis-Chr making deals with mortal human/demihuman limits. So I don't see warlocks constantly outsmarting, outwitting or fast-talking their way out of their end of the bargain often.

There's some great opportunities for RP though. Like your motive is to get powerful enough to slay the Baatezu you sold your soul too and thus free yourself from your ultimate fate (or maybe just steal the physical contract from hell if it's written like a bearer bond), or engineer the cosmic downfall of your patron where you can usurp its power in the tumult. High level campaign stuff, but interesting and lofty goals for the class. Ultimately the crux of the class is that you've taken a shortcut for power by making a deal with the devil (literally in some cases), and you ultimately use that power to welsh on that deal. It's a gamble.
 

Chippy

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Warlock means "Oath-Breaker" in old english. IMO the Class makes only Sense when there is a strong Mage-Guild (WoW) or Druid-Guild (Might & Magic or Shannara IIRC) which they can betray, or magic is otherwise heavy regulated. Otherwise they are just Cultists or mad Scientists. It should be a Prestige-Class in D&D 3.5 Terms IMO.

Edit:
There are some Versions of germanic Mythology, that I really like:
The old norse Gods didn't judge between good or evil, but between honorable and dishonorable. You could only get to Walhalla if you died honorable in Combat. Else you were send to Hel, where it's cold, boring and miserable. But there was one special Place in Hel for the Oath-Breakers, where they were tortured by Demons for Eternity.

Terry Brook's Shannara was the first fantasy book I ever read as a child. The way he wrote Allanon reminded me more of a Warlock than a druid. I also think they ripped his idea of in NWN2 when whats-her-name-the-druid goes to see the spirit of her mentor in the lake. I just remembered Allanon's father was Breman...took me longer to remember Elanee's name.

Just a bit of useless info. :|
 

Cryomancer

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So I've always seen Warlocks as non-divine, but "stealing from the Gods" for their own personal goals and power. From the patron's perspective, I imagine they tolerate the relationship in some grander scheme,

The problem of this question is that you are seeing warlocks as clerics. They are not stealing power from anyone. They aren't drawing power from anyone. They are LEARNING from his Patron. Divine casters draw his power from a outsider force. Clerics from a Deity, Druids from Nature and so on.

Arcane casters :
  • Wizard -> Learn magic from a study
  • Sorcerer -> Learn magic from his blood
  • Warlock -> Learn magic from a outsider master
  • Witches on Pathfinder -> Are a conduit from a mysterious outsider force
You can say that just like Druids are "nature divine casters", Warlocks are "outsider arcane casters". If both, clerics and warlocks are just "clerics", what is the point of having a Raven Queen cleric and a Raven Queen warlock?
 
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I'm not really sure what to think about warlocks. I've played them, they are OK. They feel like an attempt to correct the Sorcerer, which didn't go far enough to distinguish themselves mechanically nor thematically from the wizard. They can be interesting at later levels when they grow beyond being a 2-trick pony, but ultimately they feel out of place in the D&D ruleset. 5E improved their harmony with the rules and has them walk somewhere between a Wizard & Sorcerer, but I still don't quite see their appeal outside of wanting to play a character that's either an edgy sorcerer, or wizard with a Faustian bargain.
 

Fenris 2.0

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What is the Nature of a Warlock ?

In D&D they are Cultists, in Warcraft they are either Shamans or Mages that betrayed tha Rulez for infernal Power (they might or might not try to betray their new infernal overlords again) in M&M they are evil Druids.
 

Cryomancer

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I still don't quite see their appeal outside of wanting to play a character that's either an edgy sorcerer, or wizard with a Faustian bargain.

Well, you can be a Celestial warlock.

n D&D they are Cultists

No, they are apprentices of outsider patrons. It on 2e, it on 3.5e, it on 5e. They are not cultists nor clerics. On M&M, my interpretation is that they are "natureish" magicians and when they become evil, their nature become more hellish.
 

Fenris 2.0

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In 3.5 a Warlock had to make a Pact with an infernal entity, a Fey or a great old One. Sounds a lot like a Cultist to me :) Though you could inherit the Pact or have an enigmatic Patron. Or you could try to play 4D Chess like Ammon Jerro.
 

Cryomancer

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In 3.5 a Warlock had to make a Pact with an infernal entity, a Fey or a great old One. Sounds a lot like a Cultist to me

Not true. I can't post everything due non OGL nature of Complete Arcane BUT warlocks can get their power for a ancestor and can have his soul marked without "worshiping" the outsider; small texts from page 5 and 6. that you can buy here > https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/3733/Complete-Arcane-35
QgGXD4a.png


hdaFmCe.png


On 2e as a Wizard "subkit" on page 65 of complete wizard handbook

The Complete Wizard's Handbook - page 65 said:
Occasionally, these extraplanar entities contact youthful humans or demihumans for magical instruction; other times, humans and demihumans seek out the entities through arcane rituals and petition them for instruction. The entities agree to such instruction for a variety of reasons
 

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