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Bloat sucks

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
added Jarl to a list of steam review people who are too proud to lower the difficulty.
 

jungl

Augur
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
1,420
kangmaker bloat gets stupid past hard difficulty. That is when you got to have multi class monks for ac bonuses or you get trainwrecked. Hard difficulty makes you respect what your up against. Sending nok nok against 3 undead giants with 36 strength score? 2. Oh oh 2 crits in a row nok nok just took over double his hp pool he is not getting resurrected without becoming mr potatoe head. The only crpg I remember where bloat was annoying and you couldn't get around it was oblivion.

Pretty much every crpg becomes autistic stupid at highest difficulties. I played avernum 2 on torment difficulty for a good chunk of the game then I started fighting 10 or more enemies and my run officially came to a end. Why? cause you NEED a team of mages to aoe the bloated enemies hp.
 

the mole

Learned
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
833
Because subhumans here like autistic min maxing simulators like kingmaker
What the fuck you have against the min-maxing? It's like every post I see from you is about how you don't like the min-maxing. A childhood trauma?
I like being able to dabble in a few skills and not be relegated to swinging an axe ONLY for an entire playthrough

Why have so many skills in a game when you are forced to max one

Age of Dickdance is the worst at this

Rationally swords and spears would be shit against metal armor, so maybe in a logical world you also invest in hammers or daggers, in the case you come across someone in heavy armor

In a logical system hammers and daggers would have a damage bonus against heavy armor, where as swords would have bonuses against unarmored or lightly armored

But in reality in Age of Dickdance you invest in one skill or else you're gimped, even if to a player seeing 57 skills it would seem logical to invest in more than 1, based on maybe needing a skill for a certain situation
 
Last edited:

Anthedon

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 1, 2015
Messages
4,499
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I agree that bloat as described in the initial post is bad but it is not as clear cut as it sounds.
Large numbers aren't the problem itself but rather the lack of different options to tackle them
and how you implement them in such a way that it doesn't harm the atmosphere of the game.

Even Gothic works with number bloat under the hood. The "bloat" is somewhat hidden but
it is still part of the game. Your progress is pretty much tied to your weapon damage and the
resistances of your armor. But in the end you can convert the resistances into effective health,
which means that an armor simply grants you a huge bonus to hitpoints, i.e. bloat.
But Gothic manages to "hide" that well enough so it doesn't feel like a "bloaty" game.

Another problem is a continuous rise in numbers. That simply doesn't evoke any feeling of
improvement. Having fewer but larger, more noticeable "jumps" in power simply feels better in my opinion.

They fixed that particular bloat problem in ELEX. By removing the character sheet.

Not that I consider Gothic 1 and 2 problematic in that regard, both games have basically no bloat compared to most modern titles.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
24,574
Location
Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
I like being able to dabble in a few skills and not be relegated to swinging an axe ONLY for an entire playthrough

Why have so many skills in a game when you are forced to max one
You know, in real life you wouldn't be learning all the possible fighting skills. You can't be a sniper, machinegunner, tank-driver and pilot at once. That makes sense for party based RPG when you can have a team of narrowly specialized people.

On the other hand, if game goes against min-maxing, 99% probability that it encourages powergaming
 

the mole

Learned
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
833
I like being able to dabble in a few skills and not be relegated to swinging an axe ONLY for an entire playthrough

Why have so many skills in a game when you are forced to max one
You know, in real life you wouldn't be learning all the possible fighting skills. You can't be a sniper, machinegunner, tank-driver and pilot at once. That makes sense for party based RPG when you can have a team of narrowly specialized people.

On the other hand, if game goes against min-maxing, 99% probability that it encourages powergaming
Actually in real life you can learn how to do all of those things because they arent that fucking hard

Who's to say your rational character wont use different tools for different objectives

Say you need to make a long distance shot, will you use a plane or a sniper rifle

Say should I use a tank or a machine gun to defend a position
 

the mole

Learned
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
833
I'd say a warrior and soldier in Roman times would have enough time to learn how to swing a sword and a hammer

They are the exact same movement

It isnt complicated
 

Silly Germans

Guest
I agree that bloat as described in the initial post is bad but it is not as clear cut as it sounds.
Large numbers aren't the problem itself but rather the lack of different options to tackle them
and how you implement them in such a way that it doesn't harm the atmosphere of the game.

Even Gothic works with number bloat under the hood. The "bloat" is somewhat hidden but
it is still part of the game. Your progress is pretty much tied to your weapon damage and the
resistances of your armor. But in the end you can convert the resistances into effective health,
which means that an armor simply grants you a huge bonus to hitpoints, i.e. bloat.
But Gothic manages to "hide" that well enough so it doesn't feel like a "bloaty" game.

Another problem is a continuous rise in numbers. That simply doesn't evoke any feeling of
improvement. Having fewer but larger, more noticeable "jumps" in power simply feels better in my opinion.

They fixed that particular bloat problem in ELEX. By removing the character sheet.

Not that I consider Gothic 1 and 2 problematic in that regard, both games have basically no bloat compared to most modern titles.

Neither do i, rather the opposite. High numbers have their place if used right, which is why i chose Gothic as example. Fallout 1 does the
same with power armor. I also remember some old jrpgs, Secrets of Evermore and Grandia II, where rising numbers across the board
weren't a problem. So i keep wondering what the real problem is.
 

the mole

Learned
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
833
I'm sure you can find a large portion of men who understand how to operate a tank, a sniper rifle, a machine gun, and on their free time aquire a pilot license

None of those things are extremely complicated to learn

You press a few buttons and control a joystick
 

the mole

Learned
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
833
Just like anyone who can swing a sword can learn how to swing a hammer in about 5 minutes
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Your posts have convinced me, mole

It is possible for someone to be so retarded that they've never learned a goddamn single thing in their entire life
 

the mole

Learned
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
833
A man who already knows how to fly a plane could learn to drive a tank in 5 minutes

It's just a fucking armored car
 

the mole

Learned
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
833
And a man who can do both of those things can learn how to use a machine gun and sniper rifle in about 2 minutes
 

the mole

Learned
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
833
And a man who can swing a sword can learn how to swing a hammer in about 30 seconds
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
Dude, your posts are not good enough to justify taking over the thread. Shut the fuck up for a while, and return when in your senses.
 

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