Bloat sucks

[DraQ]

JarlFrank
Two points:

1. You have missed pretty much the most illustrative case study possible for this thread:
Larian's games.
They are pretty much the most exhaustive demonstration of the evils of bloat imaginable (even though they aren't exactly bad).

2. You have missed probably the worst thing about bloat: It robs numerical values of in universe meaning. If you have 1d4 dagger and 1d10 zweihander those values are kind of relateable. They mean something. They still mean roughly the same thing for 1d4+1 and 1d10+1 versions. But if your dagger goes from 4 to 4000 and you zweihander from 10 to 10000 those numbers no longer mean anything. Conversely, what you can see in game no longer has any bearing on the numbers you will face. A level 2 large guy wearing full plate and wielding massive two handed sword that does 10 damage will be no match for a level 20 peasant kid wielding a butter knife that does 4000 damage.
With bloat nothing means anything anymore unless you see the hard numbers.

Large numbers aren't the problem itself

Large numbers are the problem in themselves, see above.

Amusing explosion aside, he still had a point regarding the use of different weapons rather than overspecialization.

Narrow specialization also happens to make for uninteresting gameplay - if you are encouraged to only carry hammer every problem must be a nail.

 

[Desiderius]

On a related note, if the alpha is any indication WotR is turning down the number bloat on items/gear and adding a lot of unique/strategic abilities/procs to items.

 

[Desiderius]

As a rule, bloat = exponential. The burden of proof is on the complainant for any game with merely linear progression.

 

[Tigranes]

You sure like to declare all these rules that everybody must obey in order to participate in the discussion

DraQ makes a very good point about the actual experience of playing a number-bloated game. And it can happen with linear, exponential, whatever.

 

[Desiderius]

Not a rule, an empirical statement (which can of course be mistaken, but caveats are for cucks). Yes, I said rule as a figure of speech, not an absolute edict.

Linear in this discussion has been used in the sense of one-dimensional, and thus boring. Linear growth across any number of dimensions on the other hand rarely leads to the kind of problems OP was lamenting unless one is missing a big part of how the game is designed to be played, which seems to have often been the case with P:K since people got off on the wrong foot due to bugs (my guess).

 

[mediocrepoet]

2. You have missed probably the worst thing about bloat: It robs numerical values of in universe meaning. If you have 1d4 dagger and 1d10 zweihander those values are kind of relateable. They mean something. They still mean roughly the same thing for 1d4+1 and 1d10+1 versions. But if your dagger goes from 4 to 4000 and you zweihander from 10 to 10000 those numbers no longer mean anything. Conversely, what you can see in game no longer has any bearing on the numbers you will face. A level 2 large guy wearing full plate and wielding massive two handed sword that does 10 damage will be no match for a level 20 peasant kid wielding a butter knife that does 4000 damage.
With bloat nothing means anything anymore unless you see the hard numbers.

This is a great point and one I tend to agree with. But only insofar as the world has a roleplaying emphasis which implies some concern with simulationist aspects and how your character(s) fit in with the rest of the world.

Broadly speaking, this is why I tend to see JRPGs as retarded and prefer D&D like systems since in many (all?) JRPGs, you might start as some schlub with a wooden sword that hits for like 3, but by the late game, you're hitting with the power of 8 stars for 9999999. In the D&D like systems, there tends to be an underlying comparability and logic in the system where you can figure out where your party is compared to an average person since there aren't bandits running around with what would normally be Titan strength.

However, since games like western blobbers (and the JRPGs that derive from them) tend to be very game-y and not very simulationist at all, this is less of an issue. If the world is more game-like and only has shops, training halls, and dungeons, the ever expanding stats don't bug me as much since there's nothing that's trying to be simulated it's just about progress in monster smashing. It can be a lot of fun, but the emphasis and expectations are completely different.

 

[Daemongar]

Just want to point out that the reason I avoid Pathfinder (both table top and video games) is that bloat and powergaming is built into the system.

It wasn't so long ago that in 1st Edition D&D most creatures still had under 100 hps - but gained more varied abilities the tougher they got.
* Liches have something 11 Hit Dice (or somewhere around 50 hps)
* Storm Giants have uh... 16 Hit Dice (or maybe 80 hps)
* Think the strongest creature was Azmodious or such with 199 Hps

The thing is you could still get lucky and wipe out some high powered creatures, but a 5-6 wraiths (average 25 or so Hps) would make the party wake up quickly, even at higher levels. Bloat is now difficulty. In earlier incarnations of CRPGs, enemies each had an attack that may not have been reflected by their hps. Rust monsters, carrion crawlers, mummies, whatever. Even the damn Kobolds with bows and arrows in BG1. They were a menace, and were much more difficult than their HPs represented. They used the enemies creatively.

As obvious as all this is, I think this is just a symptom of a much larger problem: people abandoning Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, and turning to shitty systems - then designing games.

 

[Desiderius]

Just want to point out that the reason I avoid Pathfinder (both table top and video games) is that bloat and powergaming is built into the system.

It wasn't so long ago that in 1st Edition D&D most creatures still had under 100 hps - but gained more varied abilities the tougher they got.
* Liches have something 11 Hit Dice (or somewhere around 50 hps)
* Storm Giants have uh... 16 Hit Dice (or maybe 80 hps)
* Think the strongest creature was Azmodious or such with 199 Hps

The thing is you could still get lucky and wipe out some high powered creatures, but a 5-6 wraiths (average 25 or so Hps) would make the party wake up quickly, even at higher levels. Bloat is now difficulty. In earlier incarnations of CRPGs, enemies each had an attack that may not have been reflected by their hps. Rust monsters, carrion crawlers, mummies, whatever. Even the damn Kobolds with bows and arrows in BG1. They were a menace, and were much more difficult than their HPs represented. They used the enemies creatively.

As obvious as all this is, I think this is just a symptom of a much larger problem: people abandoning Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, and turning to shitty systems - then designing games.

You realize you’re describing P:K almost perfectly? In fact people bitch about those exact things (killer Kobolds, threatening abilities on relatively low level mobs, low HP on what are supposed to be epic mobs) in P:K.

 

[Daemongar]

You realize you’re describing P:K almost perfectly. In fact people bitch about those exact things in P:K.

I played the tabletop Pathfinder system. A level 6 fighter type guy did 80+ points of damage in one round - after that I never played Pathfinder again. I'll eventually play the pc game, but the system left me cold. But if you look at difficulty - it's always the same - all scales are HPs and Damage.

 

[Tacgnol]

You realize you’re describing P:K almost perfectly. In fact people bitch about those exact things in P:K.

I played the tabletop Pathfinder system. A level 6 fighter type guy did 80+ points of damage in one round - after that I never played Pathfinder again. I'll eventually play the pc game, but the system left me cold. But if you look at difficulty - it's always the same - all scales are HPs and Damage.

It's no different to 3e/3.5. Properly optimised martials can start doing insane amounts of damage as soon as they get their first iterative attack. Paizo actually attempted to reduce this slightly by making power attack scale with your BAB rather than being a "pick a number" game.

In both 3.5 and Pathfinder any full BAB level 6 martial with a 2h and power attack is going to start doing a lot of damage against single targets. Add a reliable source of haste (like boots of speed) and they'll be doing even more.

Edit: luj1 not sure which part you disagree with, that properly built martials can't start doing massive damage at level 6 or that 3/3.5 isn't much different to PF in that respect.

 

[bddevil]

It's funny mentioning ARPGs, because in Path of Exile the opposite is kinda true- for most of the game and endgame, youre one-shotting trash mobs that might as well be garbage or ants. And it's not too appealing to me. There is little to point to hundreds of monster types with different attacks when they dont have a chance to use it.

When devs buff do buff some mob hp either by type or league mechanic, mobs actually fight back and people cry about it.

Sponge hp bloat is a problem in many games though, I agree.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

So weird that people lump P:K in with bloat. First cRPG that I’ve ever played on hardest difficulty and even that got too easy. Are people just paralyzed by all the options?

its not the difficulty, its the insane amount of minuses and pluses and stat multipliers, and magic weapons etc...like I said, having 18 in a stat is meaningless and a low score mid game, every character has some belt or gauntlet or helmet or hat with+4 STR and DEX and CON or INT etc.. and then rings and gauntlets and spells and conditions with extra plus and minuses that each attack has like 40 fucking plus and minus effects on it-- its fucking absurd as hell....and if you don't make sure to have the bard song on, and every priest spell on, and etc, etc, then you can't hit the guy, and its just fucking dumb after awhile and tedious as fuck.

I purposefully make under powered characters, but even they end up with insane main stats mid game because of the gauntlets and helmets and rings. Its not the difficulty of the game, its the monty- haul nature of the magic item and loot I guess-- combined with the endless minuses and pluses attached to each attack roll. It becomes totally absurd. Its not difficult, its just tedious and then boring. It is like having a 6th grade dungeon master who can't control himself with his magic item loot table or something. He is out of control. I have actually never seen anything like it in a D&D game.

 

[Tacgnol]

It's funny mentioning ARPGs, because in Path of Exile the opposite is kinda true- for most of the game and endgame, youre one-shotting trash mobs that might as well be garbage or ants. And it's not too appealing to me. There is little to point to hundreds of monster types with different attacks when they dont have a chance to use it.

When devs buff do buff some mob hp either by type or league mechanic, mobs actually fight back and people cry about it.

Sponge hp bloat is a problem in many games though, I agree.

Path of Exile focuses on quantity of monsters, which automatically means they need to die quick or it just becomes tedious.

It has been suggested many times that GGG experiment with content that has less mob density but stronger mobs, but I don't think the community has much stomach for it.

 

[Tacgnol]

So weird that people lump P:K in with bloat. First cRPG that I’ve ever played on hardest difficulty and even that got too easy. Are people just paralyzed by all the options?

its not the difficulty, its the insane amount of minuses and pluses and stat multipliers, and magic weapons etc...like I said, having 18 in a stat is meaningless and a low score mid game, every character has some belt or gauntlet with+4 STR and DEX and CON and then rings with and gauntlets and spells and conditions with + and minuses that each attack has like 40 fucking plus and minus effects on it, its fucking absurd as hell/ and if you don't make sure to have the bard song on, and every priest spell on, and etc, etc, then you can't hit the guy, and its just fucking dumb after awhile and tedious as fuck.

I purposefully make under powered characters, but even they end up with insane main stats mid game because of the gauntlets and helmets and rings. Its not the difficulty of the game, its the maunty- haul nature of the magic item and loot I guess-- combined with the endless minuses and pluses attached to each attack roll. It becomes totally absurd. Its not difficult, its just tedious and then boring. It is like having a 6th grade dungeon master who can't control himself with his magic item loot table or something. He is out of control. I have actually never seen anything like it in a D&D game.

Interestingly enough this isn't an issue in the original AP. Characters obviously still end up very well geared towards the end (but they do in every AP), but there is less mid-game craziness.

I think part of the issue is the transition to real time. They added lots of trash encounters (often with magic items) that give you way more loot than you would normally receive.

 

[bddevil]

It's funny mentioning ARPGs, because in Path of Exile the opposite is kinda true- for most of the game and endgame, youre one-shotting trash mobs that might as well be garbage or ants. And it's not too appealing to me. There is little to point to hundreds of monster types with different attacks when they dont have a chance to use it.

When devs buff do buff some mob hp either by type or league mechanic, mobs actually fight back and people cry about it.

Sponge hp bloat is a problem in many games though, I agree.

Path of Exile focuses on quantity of monsters, which automatically means they need to die quick or it just becomes tedious.

It has been suggested many times that GGG experiment with content that has less mob density but stronger mobs, but I don't think the community has much stomach for it.

There is a middle ground somewhere between one shotting a blue/rare mob and taking 15 seconds to kill it. of course they made some rares stronger through league mechanics and then overall, but overall player power creep means youre still one shotting shit in all but endgame boss situations.

Like this recent league, the difficulty of delirium was fine, visuals and on death effects werent. people cried and now deliriums are loot pinatas that dont pose many problems. welp.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Nothing has AC 88. Highest I’ve seen is 60 on an optional boss tuned to be difficult and that was easily dispelled down to 45 the next round. Meanwhile main attackers had ABs in the mid-50s.

If you stack your buffs properly there’s no min-maxxing involved. If you min-max you can get AB/AC to 100 but the last 40 or so of that is a total waste.

So weird that people lump P:K in with bloat. First cRPG that I’ve ever played on hardest difficulty and even that got too easy. Are people just paralyzed by all the options?

But you just posted attackers being on the mid 50s, enemies with 45 to 60 AC , being able to reach 100 AB/AC and 60 ACs being an optimal number (or at least I'm assume so if 40 points are unnecessary). I mean, that itself looks like quite a bloat to me. And if despite that bloat the game isn't hard, it actually makes its case worse. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the game is bad, but I find it strange to say it doesn't suffer from bloat when the difficulty options all consist on increasing enemies stats, as well as doubling the damage you receive on Unfair. Though, I don't know much about Pathfinder in general. Does monster and player stats usually get that high?

yes, exactly, that what is annoying. 50 AC, 60 AC, whatever the number is its , absurd as hell. Its bloated, and out of control, and its because of the out of control loot, so the monsters AC has to be bloated or the players will just slaughter them. The loot is nuts.

 

[Tacgnol]

It's funny mentioning ARPGs, because in Path of Exile the opposite is kinda true- for most of the game and endgame, youre one-shotting trash mobs that might as well be garbage or ants. And it's not too appealing to me. There is little to point to hundreds of monster types with different attacks when they dont have a chance to use it.

When devs buff do buff some mob hp either by type or league mechanic, mobs actually fight back and people cry about it.

Sponge hp bloat is a problem in many games though, I agree.

Path of Exile focuses on quantity of monsters, which automatically means they need to die quick or it just becomes tedious.

It has been suggested many times that GGG experiment with content that has less mob density but stronger mobs, but I don't think the community has much stomach for it.

There is a middle ground somewhere between one shotting a blue/rare mob and taking 15 seconds to kill it. of course they made some rares stronger through league mechanics and then overall, but overall player power creep means youre still one shotting shit in all but endgame boss situations.

Like this recent league, the difficulty of delirium was fine, visuals and on death effects werent. people cried and now deliriums are loot pinatas that dont pose many problems. welp.

Path of Exile is better than D3, but I do prefer the D3 approach to mobs. I liked the way they mixed easy quick to die mobs and nasty mobs within the same areas.

Plenty of common mobs were dangerous, especially when they were part of groups.

I doubt it'll ever happen with PoE though because the clear speed meta is so deeply engrained within the community mindset.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

So weird that people lump P:K in with bloat. First cRPG that I’ve ever played on hardest difficulty and even that got too easy. Are people just paralyzed by all the options?

its not the difficulty, its the insane amount of minuses and pluses and stat multipliers, and magic weapons etc...like I said, having 18 in a stat is meaningless and a low score mid game, every character has some belt or gauntlet with+4 STR and DEX and CON and then rings with and gauntlets and spells and conditions with + and minuses that each attack has like 40 fucking plus and minus effects on it, its fucking absurd as hell/ and if you don't make sure to have the bard song on, and every priest spell on, and etc, etc, then you can't hit the guy, and its just fucking dumb after awhile and tedious as fuck.

I purposefully make under powered characters, but even they end up with insane main stats mid game because of the gauntlets and helmets and rings. Its not the difficulty of the game, its the maunty- haul nature of the magic item and loot I guess-- combined with the endless minuses and pluses attached to each attack roll. It becomes totally absurd. Its not difficult, its just tedious and then boring. It is like having a 6th grade dungeon master who can't control himself with his magic item loot table or something. He is out of control. I have actually never seen anything like it in a D&D game.

Interestingly enough this isn't an issue in the original AP. Characters obviously still end up very well geared towards the end (but they do in every AP), but there is less mid-game craziness.

I think part of the issue is the transition to real time. They added lots of trash encounters (often with magic items) that give you way more loot than you would normally receive.

I wish someone would make a mod that went through and lowered the loot and bloat of everything, it would be awesome. Maybe someone has done it for all I know.

 

[RhodokMasterRaceOfficial]

Not really an RPG, but I always liked the progression in the STALKER games.

STALKER has to be one of the most "cRPG-adjacent" games ever made. So many aspects of its design probably lend themselves better to making RPGs than they do to just making an FPS. If it had more CNC aspects and branching quest chains I think people here basically would consider it a cRPG.

 

[Silly Germans]

Bloat seems to have the highest impact on itemization and item design and so far it is the only reason i could come up
with why you might consider to include it in a game.
It has the effect that the player is forced to regularly switch his equipment. I think D:OS 1/2 are good examples, but
it is also the case to a lesser degree in PF:KM. I think the same goes for Witcher 3.
Combat did not feel bloated in the sense that fights take longer due to higher hitpoints, in neither game.
I think i wouldn't have even noticed the "bloat" if it wasn't for the extreme dependency on item stats/levels.
Is it simply the lazy devs way to keep the item spiral going ?
Does someone know of interviews or statements from devs why they use bloat/raising numbers with levels ?

 

[Tacgnol]

So weird that people lump P:K in with bloat. First cRPG that I’ve ever played on hardest difficulty and even that got too easy. Are people just paralyzed by all the options?

its not the difficulty, its the insane amount of minuses and pluses and stat multipliers, and magic weapons etc...like I said, having 18 in a stat is meaningless and a low score mid game, every character has some belt or gauntlet with+4 STR and DEX and CON and then rings with and gauntlets and spells and conditions with + and minuses that each attack has like 40 fucking plus and minus effects on it, its fucking absurd as hell/ and if you don't make sure to have the bard song on, and every priest spell on, and etc, etc, then you can't hit the guy, and its just fucking dumb after awhile and tedious as fuck.

I purposefully make under powered characters, but even they end up with insane main stats mid game because of the gauntlets and helmets and rings. Its not the difficulty of the game, its the maunty- haul nature of the magic item and loot I guess-- combined with the endless minuses and pluses attached to each attack roll. It becomes totally absurd. Its not difficult, its just tedious and then boring. It is like having a 6th grade dungeon master who can't control himself with his magic item loot table or something. He is out of control. I have actually never seen anything like it in a D&D game.

Interestingly enough this isn't an issue in the original AP. Characters obviously still end up very well geared towards the end (but they do in every AP), but there is less mid-game craziness.

I think part of the issue is the transition to real time. They added lots of trash encounters (often with magic items) that give you way more loot than you would normally receive.

I wish someone would make a mod that went through and lowered the loot and bloat of everything, it would be awesome. Maybe someone has done it for all I know.

A P&P mod that makes the game closer to the AP would be awesome. It would also make the turn based mod a lot nicer to use as there would be far less trash fights.

The biggest issue would be how they handle original areas that owlcat added, as they would need to be rebalanced as well.

 

[Desiderius]

So weird that people lump P:K in with bloat. First cRPG that I’ve ever played on hardest difficulty and even that got too easy. Are people just paralyzed by all the options?

its not the difficulty, its the insane amount of minuses and pluses and stat multipliers, and magic weapons etc...like I said, having 18 in a stat is meaningless and a low score mid game, every character has some belt or gauntlet or helmet or hat with+4 STR and DEX and CON or INT etc.. and then rings and gauntlets and spells and conditions with extra plus and minuses that each attack has like 40 fucking plus and minus effects on it-- its fucking absurd as hell....and if you don't make sure to have the bard song on, and every priest spell on, and etc, etc, then you can't hit the guy, and its just fucking dumb after awhile and tedious as fuck.

I purposefully make under powered characters, but even they end up with insane main stats mid game because of the gauntlets and helmets and rings. Its not the difficulty of the game, its the monty- haul nature of the magic item and loot I guess-- combined with the endless minuses and pluses attached to each attack roll. It becomes totally absurd. Its not difficult, its just tedious and then boring. It is like having a 6th grade dungeon master who can't control himself with his magic item loot table or something. He is out of control. I have actually never seen anything like it in a D&D game.

It’s not ideal, but it’s also not as bad as you’re making it out to be. Again, compare to D:OS II or Diablo 3 or any MMO and numbers are modest. They’re only big compared to other D&D and as I said if you look at where the numbers are coming from most of it is from scaling abilities, not “crazy” gear. +4 STR is still just +2 to hit out of +30 or +40.

Where it’s really a pain is in swapping out companions where you get into a gear cascade.

 

[Ninjerk]

Is it simply the lazy devs way to keep the item spiral going ?

This is the answer, always. It takes a lot more effort to come up with creative ways to make an experience feel fresh than to just +1 over that sword you're already holding. It's been too long since I've been forced to come to grips with mathematics, but consider how many systems remain firmly rooted in abstracting actions through simple probabilities and simply increasing/decreasing some integer.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

The thing is, all of that is pretty simple and straightforward. The real question is why so many developers were unable to reach that conclusion on their own? It's not rocket science, it shouldn't be that rare.

I dunno. I made this post because I noticed bloat being a problem in many contemporary games. Apparently devs don't think it's a problem else it wouldn't be this common.

Most people don't reach far into the games nowadays, so amount of time average player spends with a bloat is minimized, so devs have a less of an initiative to decrease bloat. This, obviously, assumes there were no bloat at lower levels.

 

[Desiderius]

The thing is, all of that is pretty simple and straightforward. The real question is why so many developers were unable to reach that conclusion on their own? It's not rocket science, it shouldn't be that rare.

I dunno. I made this post because I noticed bloat being a problem in many contemporary games. Apparently devs don't think it's a problem else it wouldn't be this common.

Most people don't reach far into the games nowadays, so amount of time average player spends with a bloat is minimized, so devs have a less of an initiative to decrease bloat. This, obviously, assumes there were no bloat at lower levels.

That's lazy thinking. It's the mid/endgame that draws players in and generates word of mouth, then word of mouth gets people to buy, many of whom never then get around to playing, skewing the statistics.