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Serious Business - Is Dishonored better than Thief?

Which is the better game / series?


  • Total voters
    173

bddevil

Educated
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
71
Might be difficult for you to understand, but video games are seen as power fantasies by a lot of players. They enjoy being demigods.
They can be demigods all they like, on the Easy difficulty level or while crushing ants on their home porch. I have no qualms about eventually becoming super powerful in games, but it has to feel deserved. You need to get your ass kicked first, so that returning the favor feels satisfying. What the hell do I care about "a lot of players" anyway? It's those people that are to blame for the lack of nice things in the first place.

I'd say that, in the end, the biggest culprit here isn't even your power level but the mission design. The level layouts are no doubt very nice, but they're not used nearly as well as they'd deserve. I replayed the last mission because I felt kind of bad for rewiring all the security systems the first time around, and it literally took me less than five minutes excluding the boat ride and a couple of NPC monologues. The rest of the game really is about the same. I think this is what separates Dishonored from, say, Thief (another stealth game) and Hitman (another assassin game), which at their best really shine when it comes to mission design.

In Thief, the missions are built around exploration. You can't just beeline to your objective, you really have to look around and be thorough with each level, as there may be a complex chain of objectives to complete or simply lots of mandatory loot to collect before you can finish the level. In Hitman there are a number of different ways you can tackle a mission, most of which are pretty short if executed properly, but to be able to pull that off you need to spend some time getting to know the level, observing NPC patterns, figuring out ways to do things without being caught, and so on. The levels are puzzles that you need to solve using the tools the game gives you, and only with careful planning and precise timing can you make it all work. Dishonored has elements from both (open levels with lots to explore, different ways to take out your targets), but it's all laid out for you. You always have a clear route to your target. You can explore, but the levels don't require it, and the tough places are almost always optional. If there's an obstacle, the way around it is always nearby or otherwise obvious. The game makes sure you'll always know what the non-lethal option is, instead of making you actively look for it. As a result, there's never that rewarding feeling you get from those other series. The closest Dishonored gets is the aforementioned Return to the Tower mission where it momentarily seems to throw everything it has at you.

Looking forward to the DLC nonetheless.
What you're saying is true for most modern games though. A lot of newer Hitman games shove the different ways to approach things in your face. Same with Deus Ex. I get what you mean, exactly.

That Lady Boyle mission you mentioned, the NPCs are random so it's random who will tell you everything, but as long as you talk to everyone, you will eventually find them. I agree it would be way better that on high difficulty some of these obvious ways would be removed. This is what's wrong with difficulty levels nowadays - they just control stealth factor/sponge hp level and damage output. The game mechanics is still based on baseline stuff that's static.

Thief is in its own echelon and it's telling that attempts of its recreation in modern gaming were failures. Modern gamers don't "get" Thief and its point.
 

existential_vacuum

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A lot of newer Hitman games shove the different ways to approach things in your face.
There are three main newer Hitman games: Absolution, 2016 and Hitman 2.

Absolution, while linear, never shoves how to approach things in small sandboxy levels.

I haven't played 2016 at launch so it might have been different. But played it earlier this year, and I don't get, what you are talking about. Opportunities, or whatever they are called, are optional, they can be turned off in the options. Moreover, if you play Hitman 2 on Master difficulty they are turned off by default (can't remember, whether there is difficulty setting in 2016). Moreover, difficulty affects placement of certain items.

That said, nuHitman handles both casual and "hardcore" players: play on the highest difficulty, explore and experiment or let the game tell you how to be awesome.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
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New Vegas
In my opinion challenge in games is good and necessary because it makes you learn the systems and use strategies. I dislike the whole "grind this section for 20 deaths until you win and feel elated" thing. It doesn't do anything for me at all. However you need some challenge to force you to use buffs and debuffs, or experiment with all the powers and find uses for them, or learn enemy patterns, or whatever else. This is honestly what "normal" should be but instead it's usually way too easy, so I tend to start out on one above normal. When there's only three settings and hard mode is too annoying though, it's a real shame.

Dishonored is pretty easy even on the highest difficulty, and while Dishonored 2 is harder because enemies notice you much easier it's still not "hard" to complete unless you want a 100% stealth run. However both make you engage with the systems and watch enemy patterns if you want to get through without being seen, which is good enough for what I want from "challenge" personally.
 

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
2,453
Location
Romania
I always play games on normal difficulty or whatever the equivalent of it is in a given game. Because I found out that devs understand difficulty by adding a bunch of 0s to everything, which I'm not a fan of, in the slightest.
I've always stated that the difficulty must come from the AI, rules being applied the same to the player and the AI, not having infinite resources on either side, not knowing (or knowing) the level layout (depending on the game), making sure the propagation of information is well implemented and makes sense, line of sight mechanics, reinforcement mechanics, limited number of entities, thought out placement of said entities and obstacles etc.
But no. Difficulty today means more HP for enemies while you also deal less damage. Fuck. That.
And in these cases, the word "strategies" means cheesing.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
I always play games on normal difficulty or whatever the equivalent of it is in a given game. Because I found out that devs understand difficulty by adding a bunch of 0s to everything, which I'm not a fan of, in the slightest.

I agree with the complaint, but it can still be effective sometimes to just change damage values if it results in forcing you to use potions or spec your character better, etc. That doesn't really apply to a game like Dishonored though. The higher difficulties in Dishonored (2 especially) result in enemies noticing you faster though, which I'd still is good for a stealth focused game.
 

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