Warhammer Total War: Warhammer 2

[Fedora Master]

Yea, magic like in the TT. Imagine having to micro counterspelling.

 

[A horse of course]

Yea, magic like in the TT. Imagine having to micro counterspelling.

They simply need to make casting time longer. "X is casting a Tier1/2/3 spell" pops up and you can choose a mage to try and dispel it at the cost of not being able to cast themselves for a while, for example.

 

[Parabalus]

Yea, magic like in the TT. Imagine having to micro counterspelling.

They simply need to make casting time longer. "X is casting a Tier1/2/3 spell" pops up and you can choose a mage to try and dispel it at the cost of not being able to cast themselves for a while, for example.

But what's the end-result? Magic being even more powerful if not countered?

Seems like a mechanic for MP, and just another avenue for abusing the AI in SP.

 

[Jaedar]

Campaign depth, not stupid gimmick shite

Imo they just need to fix the objectives and make the AI more competent so it doesn't have to rely on 80% reductions/increases to half the major mechanics to stand a chance.

 

[A horse of course]

Yea, magic like in the TT. Imagine having to micro counterspelling.

They simply need to make casting time longer. "X is casting a Tier1/2/3 spell" pops up and you can choose a mage to try and dispel it at the cost of not being able to cast themselves for a while, for example.

But what's the end-result? Magic being even more powerful if not countered?

Seems like a mechanic for MP, and just another avenue to abuse the AI in SP.

Magic has an inherent problem in that it's mostly "click to do massive damage". There's no real tactical or strategic element to this for the player (both as user and victim). Artillery and ranged units are also massively buffed in Warhammer compared to earlier historychad titles, but at least there are a number of ways to significantly mitigate or nullify it (there are pros and cons to having an army that has to babysit artillery, though it was better in games like Med2 where it actually slowed down your army). In theory, a significant benefit to bringing a mage should not just be the ability to one-click win with a vortex spell, but to counter enemy mages (not minor crap like reducing overall winds of magic, which you can do with items anyway). CA didn't make the slightest effort to make magic its own mechanic, just chucked mages in as glass (and not-so-glass) cannons.

 

[Agame]

Honestly a lot of the problems are baked into the design and as Ed says they will never be fixed in WH:3. The best we can hope for is a 'Warhammer trilogy reboot 2.0 electric boogaloo' remake the game from the ground up, but god knows when/if that could happen, 10 - 20 years from now...

I have heard rumors they will 'fix' sieges in WH:3 but that could mean anything. One of my main gripes is the replenishment system, prior to this DLC orks were a million times worse than high elves which was fucking nonsense, now they are maybe on par? Which is still daft. Recruitment and replenishment needs a complete overhaul, so horde factions can actually act like hordes, and 'dying' factions actually feel every loss.

And agree on magic, it should be far more dynamic, with some kind of counter spell system. Who the fuck knows how you would design that but then its not our job, CA is the one making all the bank off this title.

 

[Parabalus]

Yea, magic like in the TT. Imagine having to micro counterspelling.

They simply need to make casting time longer. "X is casting a Tier1/2/3 spell" pops up and you can choose a mage to try and dispel it at the cost of not being able to cast themselves for a while, for example.

But what's the end-result? Magic being even more powerful if not countered?

Seems like a mechanic for MP, and just another avenue to abuse the AI in SP.

Magic has an inherent problem in that it's mostly "click to do massive damage". There's no real tactical or strategic element to this for the player (both as user and victim). Artillery and ranged units are also massively buffed in Warhammer compared to earlier historychad titles, but at least there are a number of ways to significantly mitigate or nullify it (there are pros and cons to having an army that has to babysit artillery, though it was better in games like Med2 where it actually slowed down your army). In theory, a significant benefit to bringing a mage should not just be the ability to one-click win with a vortex spell, but to counter enemy mages (not minor crap like reducing overall winds of magic, which you can do with items anyway). CA didn't make the slightest effort to make magic its own mechanic, just chucked mages in as glass (and not-so-glass) cannons.

It also has buffs, debuffs, summoning? Outside of teleportation and terrashaping it covers a lot.

You can dodge most spells, the AI usually does this as well (outside of magic missles), but it could be better, especially when melee has started.
Artillery should be stronger than in previous titles since there are fast (flying) monsters here which oneshot them.

Dunno how counterspell worked in the table top, but as you describe it here it sounds like using your WoM to destroy enemy WoM, effectively not making anyone use magic.

Recruitment and replenishment needs a complete overhaul, so horde factions can actually act like hordes, and 'dying' factions actually feel every loss.

Ammunition resupply cost should come first, otherwise it encourages even more ranged spam.

 

[razvedchiki]

One of my main gripes is the replenishment system,

dude what, you can recruit/replenish anywhere inside your borders elite stacks in a few turns/instantly if you have the money/buldings.
in earlier total war titles you had to get back into a town that had the specific bulding your recruited from in order to recruite it again/replenish it. if the city was on the other side of your empire then GG.

 

[thesheeep]

Yea, magic like in the TT. Imagine having to micro counterspelling.

They simply need to make casting time longer. "X is casting a Tier1/2/3 spell" pops up and you can choose a mage to try and dispel it at the cost of not being able to cast themselves for a while, for example.

Eh, idk...
There's already a lot of stuff to juggle all at once. This would one would just add even more things to watch out for at any given moment.
Besides, if the casting times were longer, even if uncountered, it would make dodging spells easier / aiming barely possible.
And I really doubt it is necessary. There already are buffs, debuffs, disruptions, damage - it's way more than just BOOM-spells already and on higher difficulties or MP you actually need them.

And I guarantee you, as soon as magic could get countered or has lower chance of success, people would simply stop bringing mages. Why spend money on uncertain outcomes if you can spend it on certain outcomes?

Of course, you aren't wrong about some other stuff.

Campaign depth, not stupid gimmick shite
Fix dogshit sieges, either completely overhaul the current sieges or at least add significant settlement variety
Magic system (like tabletop), not glass cannon one-click BOOM haha like the current mechanics
Unit customization (like tabletop)
Character customization beyond Call of Duty loadouts (like historical TW) - every faction should, at minimum, have something similar to political offices and intrafaction relations
Logical diplomacy, not allies with 100+ relations randomly declaring war on each other because their code told them to (never ever)
Naval combat (small family company)
Banners (small family company)

Campaign is pretty meh, indeed and the only real differences come from the factions themselves having some different mechanics. But I'd prefer even more differences between them.
Sieges are still crap, no doubt about it. Part of that is due to AI, part of it due to nonsense stuff like unit placement/movement on walls being terrible. Of course, adding stuff like "hold out for X until you get reinforcements" would be amazing...
No idea what unit customization in tabletop is like, but I'd definitely be against too much microing nonsense. As soon as you have to equip ammo to single soldiers, it would simply be a nuisance.
Amen to the diplomacy, AI is just completely retarded when it comes to anything diplomacy-related.
Naval combat would be nice, but I really don't know if that wouldn't be better off being its own game.

I think they could definitely improve a lot in a WH3 without having to change too much in their core systems. Will they do it, though?
Highly unlikely...

 

[Nahel]

dude what, you can recruit/replenish anywhere inside your borders elite stacks in a few turns/instantly if you have the money/buldings.
in earlier total war titles you had to get back into a town that had the specific bulding your recruited from in order to recruite it again/replenish it. if the city was on the other side of your empire then GG.

Which is the exact problem. In earlier titles, losing an elite unit was a terrible blow, unlike the the trash units which are used as fodder. And as a result trash units were really useful. It was also a lot harder to get elite units and you had to merge units often which is realist on a long campaign. Attrition was a thing as were double side attacks. Now its just easy waiting. The problem of older systems was ferrying the troops which made the logistic extremely annoying. You also had to build your own garnison, which depleted invading invading armies.

 

[BrotherFrank]

Sadly most of Ed123's wish list is indeed unlikely to pass from CA now that they settled on a formula and will be content with just tweaking it for the most part (we will see about the promised siege revamp), but modders to the rescue on some of them:



SFO adding banners hoisted by actual banner bearers instead of floating above regiments all ghostly like. And they want to try and tackle the snowballing prolem but that might just be in the realm of fabulously optimistic. Also halfling chicken cavalry. Nothing more to add to that.

For the magic system he describes, it already mostly exists in another total waresque fantasy game and imo is one of the best magical systems implemented for this kind of game : King Arthur the role playing wargame. It's been a while since I played the series so forgive me if I confuse ka1's magic with ka2.

Assuming my memory doesn't betray me, in the 1st KA title you indeed had counterspells and each spell would take time to charge up which would appear in a visible pop up on a screen. You could then counterspell with a mere button press so it was quite an elegant system overall. Yes this meant that the biggest and most powerful spells were harder to get off but this is more or less how TT worked aswell except the amount of magic you got was refreshed each turn which if directly translated might indeed be too micro intensive/OP.

2nd KA game replaced counterspelling with the concept of magical defenses you first had to weaken before damaging spells got through which I felt was a step down but was still somewhat interesting in that magical resistance was something you could build up so perhaps suited to represent races like dwarves. Was always a bit of a personal niggle that dwarves in TWW have a flat magic resistance as if they were resistant to being burnt alive just because the source of the fire was magical, what should be happening is spellcasting is harder in their presence but if a spell does get popped off they are going to feel it as hard as any human or elf.

 

[Parabalus]

dude what, you can recruit/replenish anywhere inside your borders elite stacks in a few turns/instantly if you have the money/buldings.
in earlier total war titles you had to get back into a town that had the specific bulding your recruited from in order to recruite it again/replenish it. if the city was on the other side of your empire then GG.

Which is the exact problem. In earlier titles, losing an elite unit was a terrible blow, unlike the the trash units which are used as fodder. And as a result trash units were really useful. It was also a lot harder to get elite units and you had to merge units often which is realist on a long campaign. Attrition was a thing as were double side attacks. Now its just easy waiting. The problem of older systems was ferrying the troops which made the logistic extremely annoying. You also had to build your own garnison, which depleted invading invading armies.

If elites replenished much slower it just buffs all ranged units (who are preferable already), but especially elite ranged.

 

[Fedora Master]

SFO is sadly crippled by its own weight these days.

 

[Parabalus]

SFO adding banners hoisted by actual banner bearers instead of floating above regiments all ghostly like.

What are they doing differently with the banners? From the clip you posted it seems just graphics.

 

[BrotherFrank]

SFO adding banners hoisted by actual banner bearers instead of floating above regiments all ghostly like.

What are they doing differently with the banners? From the clip you posted it seems just graphics.

The banners are raised by actual dudes, they ain’t ghostly constructs. It’s not a big change but more immersive this way, just like adding in unit leaders and hopefully one day, musicians.

 

[Nahel]

If elites replenished much slower it just buffs all ranged units (who are preferable already), but especially elite ranged.

Which is just a balance problem, created in part by cavalry disengaging too easily but having terrible stats for a longer fight. It would also decrease micro for tactics.And if its on battle difficulties harder than normal who cares? Elite infantry get raped by militia anyway due to retarded buffs...

 

[Frusciante]

Warhammer II is the best strategy game I ever played. Cant think of anything that comes close to being as fun.

 

[Fedora Master]

Warhammer II is the best strategy game I ever played. Cant think of anything that comes close to being as fun.

Dominions 5

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

he said "fun".

 

[Maculo]

CTT/Boyz Will be Boyz already updated for the new patch. I think I will try Malus next on Legendary/Normal with CTT, CTT units, Table Top caps, and the Lore mod. At least CTT makes Cold Ones more useful than vanilla.

And they want to try and tackle the snowballing prolem but that might just be in the realm of fabulously optimistic.

Personally, I think a refined version of Markus Wulfhart's hostility meter would do it. The more you grow in power and/or territory, the more alerted your factional opposite becomes (Dark Elf v. High Elf, Greenskins/Skaven v. Dawi, Allarielle v. Hellebrom, etc.). It is not perfect, but I found it delayed or lessened snowballing.

My main wish for TWH3 is that CA releases more moding tools, which is probably more remote that Ed123's wishlist.

 

[Darth Roxor]

started a nagarythe campaign

around turn 20 i had the bright idea of attacking morathi because she was spreading chaos corruption to my vaul's anvil

naturally she called niggarond for help

oh no

it is now turn 71, and after quelling countless chaos rebellions, kicking out morathi and countering some 6 niggarond invasions (three of which came from the fucking ocean because he confederated hag graef and malus apparently decided it was a fun idea to send a bunch of armies aaaaaaaall the way from the archipelago in africa towards me) the front is finally somewhat stable

to give you an idea of how busy i was, alith anar is now level 40, and he's still running around with rangers and spearmen (and 6 shadow justice walkers who do all the heavy lifting) because i never had the time/opportunity to take a breather and apply some prussian military reforms

maybe i'll even allow myself the luxury of starting the first ritual soon

 

[fizzelopeguss]

CreamAPI still works, nice.

Why wouldn't it work?
The people over at... that place... said you need the loose DLC files though, which I find odd.

I've no idea how it works to be honest, I'm just glad it does. Hopefully it will for warhammer 3 also because I ain't spending £100 plus on any game.

But yeah, you have to pre-download the dlc files. (took me 5 minutes)

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

who assured you people waiting for warhammer 3 it's not going to begin with 4 races and restart the whole dlc shitshow again?

 

[_V_]

Sadly most of Ed123's wish list is indeed unlikely to pass from CA now that they settled on a formula and will be content with just tweaking it for the most part (we will see about the promised siege revamp), but modders to the rescue on some of them:

"What mod does he talk about at 8:04 ? Is that a mod that givesa hero only army?" Asking for a friend...

 

[BrotherFrank]

"What mod does he talk about at 8:04 ? Is that a mod that givesa hero only army?" Asking for a friend...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2100358989&searchtext=ubersreik

Never tried it but from what I understand you still play the empire normally but get an army led by the 5 vermintide protagonists, from there you can then add heroes as normal to make it an all hero army if that's your groove.

 

[Average Manatee]

started a nagarythe campaign

around turn 20 i had the bright idea of attacking morathi because she was spreading chaos corruption to my vaul's anvil

naturally she called niggarond for help

oh no

it is now turn 71, and after quelling countless chaos rebellions, kicking out morathi and countering some 6 niggarond invasions (three of which came from the fucking ocean because he confederated hag graef and malus apparently decided it was a fun idea to send a bunch of armies aaaaaaaall the way from the archipelago in africa towards me) the front is finally somewhat stable

to give you an idea of how busy i was, alith anar is now level 40, and he's still running around with rangers and spearmen (and 6 shadow justice walkers who do all the heavy lifting) because i never had the time/opportunity to take a breather and apply some prussian military reforms

maybe i'll even allow myself the luxury of starting the first ritual soon

Started a Morathi campaign a few weeks ago. Niggarond declared war on me before I discovered them around turn 20. Because fuck logic, intended diplomatic bonuses that are part of the faction, and Morathi.