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Interview Chris Avellone on What Makes a Great RPG at IGN

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Tags: Chris Avellone

As part of their Summer of Gaming programming, IGN have been publishing short interview segments with various game development personalities, such as their interview with Brian Fargo from last week. Yesterday they released a segment with Chris Avellone, apparently edited out of a larger interview with him and his co-writer on The Waylanders, former Telltale designer Emily Grace Buck. Both of them appear to have been asked about the ingredients for making a great RPG.

According to Chris, it's important to allow characters to progress narratively and not just systemically, such that their role within the game world changes over time. He's tired of games that insist on adding a forced twist and suggests that their writers instead consider refactoring their storylines such that what was previously known from the beginning becomes a twist. Chris has enjoyed working in a variety of settings and genres over the past few years and figuring out how to implement roleplaying mechanics that fit those settings. He believes that newer engines now allow more drastic reactivity to be implemented. For example, you can have a quest that results in the creation of a new town in the game world. There's more in IGN's summary of the full interview. Here's the video of Chris and an excerpt:



Avellone adds that it’s also important players see everything – from combat to character progression – tied into a game’s story and/or world. “I think a lot of video game narratives can suffer tremendously when it's apparent that the systems and the gameplay loop are not connected to the narrative – and vice versa – and that there was no attempt to do so,” he says. “I think that it robs a game’s story of a lot of the potential that it could have, and arguably what a game’s story should have.”

“You can take all the typical RPG pillars,” Avellone says, referring to the classic combination of combat, exploration, and role-playing/decision-making that form the backbone of most RPGs. “But what is that in this world that they've set up? And then that ends up usually giving all those pillars unique flavor ... For example, if you were doing, like, a Tomb Raider RPG, a...world like that that has sort of some unique element. ‘How do I combine the feel and aesthetics of this world?’ And how does that translate in the combat system? How does that translate in the exploration aspect? Because the exploration aspects of a Tomb Raider RPG would be much different than exploration in Divinity. And that's where the interesting points come in, is finding that space where the aesthetics of the world and the lore can make themselves felt through all those pillars.”

[...] Avellone says it’s important for designers – whether they be aspiring or seasoned industry professionals – to constantly take stock of a game or a world’s unique elements. To recognize when it’s time to not necessarily “think outside the box,” but rather explore a new box altogether.

“I was going through a really difficult time where the box wasn't changing,” he says. “And because the box wasn't changing, the mechanics really weren't altering all that much. And then the settings weren't altering that much. And I could feel myself being in a rut and I'm like, ‘I don't think I'm growing. I don't think I'm developing’ … The box was always in place. If it had moved just a little bit, that would have been nice, but it just didn't.” Eventually, Avellone says, he got to a point where he decided, “‘I'm going to go find more boxes and I'm going to build towers out of these boxes. I want to see what an FPS is like, I want to see what an RTS is like. I want to see what VR is like. And I want to know how all these different genres tell stories, because I'm guessing there's plenty of stuff that these other genres have learned quite well that would apply to making a great RPG.’”

[...] “What's painful,” Avellone says, “is when you spend five minutes looking at a character, and you haven't been given any options. They're just talking at you; your choices don't seem to matter. The best thing to do in that situation is have a deep talk with the writer,” he laughs, adding, “The second thing is to hire an editor.”

“The third thing,” he continues, refocusing, “is that you want to take that exposition and go, ‘I need the words to stop.’ Can you turn this into a quest where I'm going to encounter all the signposts of what you're talking about that I get to interact with it? Or, rather than having you give me a book that explains your philosophy, give me a quest that's sparked by this philosophy, or two factions fighting where you're stopping that fight (or helping one or the other) you're gonna get a good sense of what they're fighting about just because you're involved in that conflict… [There] are more interactive and game-ey ways to communicate the horribly long, long exposition.”

It sounds like Chris might still be working through some trauma from five years ago, but it's good advice.
 

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“What's painful,” Avellone says, “is when you spend five minutes looking at a character, and you haven't been given any options. They're just talking at you; your choices don't seem to matter.

[There] are more interactive and game-ey ways to communicate the horribly long, long exposition.”

two excellent pieces of advice imo; are you just going through a mundane chat that is there to waste your time or is there something in that dialog that will matter depending on what you say? why create a branching dialogue that is ultimately pointless when you can just give them a quick sentence of text to communicate whatever? MCA also once said that game-writing and screenwriting are the most interconnected forms of writing, you can see that when a quest is designed to communicate story through actual events rather than just a long branching dialogue.
 
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NJClaw

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Avellone says, referring to the classic combination of combat, exploration, and role-playing/decision-making that form the backbone of most RPGs.
ah, that vaunted combat pillar which disco elysium lacks...:positive:
The three combat encounters in Disco Elysium are amazing though. It's a shame you can't solve one of them without fighting. :smug:
 

Jrpgfan

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"He believes that newer engines now allow more drastic reactivity to be implemented. For example, you can have a quest that results in the creation of a new town in the game world."

In Age of Decadence you can nuke the biggest town in the game and lose all its quests. And that game runs on an old ass engine made in a garage.
 

Lilliput McHammersmith

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Avellone says, referring to the classic combination of combat, exploration, and role-playing/decision-making that form the backbone of most RPGs.
ah, that vaunted combat pillar which disco elysium lacks...:positive:
The three combat encounters in Disco Elysium are amazing though. It's a shame you can't solve one of them without fighting. :smug:

I love story games a lot, but when it comes to RPGs I want that combat, which is why Mask of the Betrayer and Planescape will always be better than Disco Elysium to me.

(Not to mention that stories about souls and morality are infinitely more interesting to me than stories about failed communist revolutions)

(I really like Harry DuBois but I never fell in love with DE's world, like I did Planescape's)
 
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“If you have to force a twist, just don't do it.”

Writers who dont understand this should be beaten. The fixation on twists is the worst thing to happen to the modern movie industry.
 

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“If you have to force a twist, just don't do it.”

Writers who dont understand this should be beaten. The fixation on twists is the worst thing to happen to the modern movie industry.

I blame mediocre writers trying to ape The Usual Suspects.

Not to say twists weren't done before, but TUS sure made them trendy.
 

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"He believes that newer engines now allow more drastic reactivity to be implemented. For example, you can have a quest that results in the creation of a new town in the game world."

In Age of Decadence you can nuke the biggest town in the game and lose all its quests. And that game runs on an old ass engine made in a garage.

Yeah, he clearly means that in the context of an open world game with a large continuous map.
 

Jrpgfan

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"He believes that newer engines now allow more drastic reactivity to be implemented. For example, you can have a quest that results in the creation of a new town in the game world."

In Age of Decadence you can nuke the biggest town in the game and lose all its quests. And that game runs on an old ass engine made in a garage.

Yeah, he clearly means that in the context of an open world game with a large continuous map.

Doesn't really matter though. That's more of a design challenge than a technical one.
 

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"He believes that newer engines now allow more drastic reactivity to be implemented. For example, you can have a quest that results in the creation of a new town in the game world."

In Age of Decadence you can nuke the biggest town in the game and lose all its quests. And that game runs on an old ass engine made in a garage.

Yeah, he clearly means that in the context of an open world game with a large continuous map.

Doesn't really matter though. That's more of a design challenge than a technical one.

The relevant part from the interview:

And those advancements in technology can allow for more reactive worlds as well as just an insanely complex story tree. “In the old days,” Avellone says with a laugh, “we would hesitate before saying things like, ‘Oh, we can't burn down that town,’ or ‘We can't erect a town here, we can't have a new settlement form up from all the people you help, because that's gonna cause too many disruptions in the terrain.’ And ‘We can't switch out huge swaths of territory like that, we can’t mix and match.’ But now,” he says with a smile, “that’s a little bit more of a question. Like, ‘We could do that, and here's how we could do it, the hardware is allowing us to do it.’ So I think it's going to allow for some more dramatic visual changes in the environment, which I think are great because that's one of the easiest ways to show the impact of your actions – as long as it doesn't feel scripted.”

He seems to think it is some sort of technical challenge.
 

Jrpgfan

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He clearly states it's not a technical challenge anymore. And regardless of what he says, it is more of a design challenge than a technical one.
 

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I find it curious that whenever game jurnos introduce MCA by the list of games he wrote for, they never ever mention his magnum opus PS:T, what is up with that ?
 
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I find it curious that whenever game jurnos introduce MCA by the list of games he wrote for, they never ever mention his magnum opus PS:T, what is up with that ?
Game journalists are ignorant about games and the people who make them.

There is no money in PS:T promotion. If you write about Baldurs Gate (sorry Baulders Gate) then you are promoting BG III. You get respect points with Larian and Wizards of Coast. If you talk a about KotOR, Disney is pleased. If you write about D:OS2 then again Larian is pleased. I think journalists also take into account a perceived number of fans of the franchise.

I am not saying that each article written is being read by corporate marketing team to decide which news outlets were good boys this month and who will get and interview or something. I am saying that when article is out, you may never know who may read it.
 

Lilliput McHammersmith

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I find it curious that whenever game jurnos introduce MCA by the list of games he wrote for, they never ever mention his magnum opus PS:T, what is up with that ?

Out of the loop here, why do you guys call Chris Avellone MCA?
 

Raapys

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To me it sounds like he's completely lost perspective and just wants to mess around with shit. Sure, you can make a town appear where none was before. But it's gonna be very expensive to do properly and it doesn't magically make the game, gameplay, writing or story any better, or the game more fun to play. What's missing in modern RPGs is not massively big features that cost $99999999 to make. It's simple quality.
 

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To me it sounds like he's completely lost perspective and just wants to mess around with shit. Sure, you can make a town appear where none was before. But it's gonna be very expensive to do properly and it doesn't magically make the game, gameplay, writing or story any better, or the game more fun to play. What's missing in modern RPGs is not massively big features that cost $99999999 to make. It's simple quality.
Emergent gameplay is the next level of the Choices & Consequence meme; where instead of a set path something is made through player choice and the player is able to create a personal narrative. He's not saying to do one exclusive of the other, but he's interested in a game that takes advantage of new possibilities using both.
 

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In Age of Decadence you can nuke the biggest town in the game and lose all its quests. And that game runs on an old ass engine made in a garage.

VD is clearly drawing inspiration from classic and epic games of the past, such as Fallout 3 and the city of Megaton. :salute:

How's my TemplarGR impression?
 

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"He believes that newer engines now allow more drastic reactivity to be implemented. For example, you can have a quest that results in the creation of a new town in the game world."

In Age of Decadence you can nuke the biggest town in the game and lose all its quests. And that game runs on an old ass engine made in a garage.

Yeah, he clearly means that in the context of an open world game with a large continuous map.

Doesn't really matter though. That's more of a design challenge than a technical one.

The relevant part from the interview:

And those advancements in technology can allow for more reactive worlds as well as just an insanely complex story tree. “In the old days,” Avellone says with a laugh, “we would hesitate before saying things like, ‘Oh, we can't burn down that town,’ or ‘We can't erect a town here, we can't have a new settlement form up from all the people you help, because that's gonna cause too many disruptions in the terrain.’ And ‘We can't switch out huge swaths of territory like that, we can’t mix and match.’ But now,” he says with a smile, “that’s a little bit more of a question. Like, ‘We could do that, and here's how we could do it, the hardware is allowing us to do it.’ So I think it's going to allow for some more dramatic visual changes in the environment, which I think are great because that's one of the easiest ways to show the impact of your actions – as long as it doesn't feel scripted.”

He seems to think it is some sort of technical challenge.

It's a really dumb statement because games did do all the things he talks about going back to the eras of 8 bit hardware. I can only assume it's one of those things where he was trying to think of something interesting to say to retarded journos, but it reads like total nonsense to the audience of actual gamers.
 

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