Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

[Disco Elysium] Disappointing Mid-late game. [Heavy Spoilers]

Joined
May 26, 2020
Messages
409
I enjoyed the first day of investigation, not much else. The tribunal is ok if you have any other build than high Reaction/E-H, which is what I had. That made the whole thing feel like a slap in the face.

How did it make you feel when you found out that the 2nd reaction skill check was hard coded to fail?

I think I feel the same way when I discovered that you had to pass a medium-high shiver check in order to find Ruby to advance the plot.

Like the game is telling you that your character development ultimately serves no purpose because the Gods have laid down a set path for you. Huge illusion of choice towards the end game.

Maybe it is just an adventure game or an e-book like others have said, but I was really hoping for an actual RPG game where choices and consequences matter in the end.

I did not think of it before, but if you guys haven't tried Age of Decadence yet, go check it out. That game handles plots, lore and choices a lot better than Disco Elysium, though probably not as emotionally driven.
 

ValeVelKal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,605
Disco Elysium is an incredible game to play the first time and without spoiler, as it LOOKS like you made your own adventure, and that the world reacted to your decision. If you did not read any spoiler and did not replay the game, you would think that the Tribunal happened because you were too slow with the investigation, that there could have been dizains of outcome of the Tribunal, etc etc.

But then people savescum, read spoilers, tear down the veil and realize that the real "choice and consequence" is much more narrow than it looks and they are frustrated. Well, tough for you. For people who are used to play games in no spoiler / no minmax / no savescum, the game was immensely satisfying, it just flowed organically.

The game does not resist a second playthrough, but I don't feel developers should care too much about more playthrough than one when the first playthrough is already some 20 hours long. I haven't replayed RPG since I was a teenager.

I feel like that's why opinions are so different on this game.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Disco's second half is weaker, not because it suddenly does something different, but because it loses the depth.

The game is relatively linear from start to finish (which, by the way, is a key flaw), but before you cross the bridge, there's enough intertwined minor choices with consequences & flavour choices to make you feel like you can roleplay the situation in different ways even if the Big Events themselves do not change. Which is OK, because Disco is a game about what kind of cop you are and how you navigate a world in which you seem to know little, there is little good that you can do to fix a horrible situation of your own making. Every encounter thematically reinforces this while providing you some roleplaying leeway.

The second half does the same thing, but the finer web of small decisions becomes thinner, partly because the thematic cohesiveness also becomes weaker. You still have some choices & character-building moments, but they are either extensions of what you had before (the shaving moment, for example, hearkening back to the opening mirror), or they start to lose cohesion because they start to get into a wider array of zany references. The drug electro disco dudes and the church stuff might be just as cleverly written as before, but you start stopping and asking wait why is this here and why am I reading through this - which you would never do in your first conversation with the union leader or the interrogation of Titus. By the time you're trekking across the snowy wasteland of the second region looking for more clues to pass the Shivers check, things are getting a bit thin.

That said, the second half obviously holds some singularly amazing scenes. The karaoke scene and the boat ride scene, in tandem, are masterpieces.
 
Joined
May 26, 2020
Messages
409
Disco Elysium is an incredible game to play the first time and without spoiler, as it LOOKS like you made your own adventure, and that the world reacted to your decision. If you did not read any spoiler and did not replay the game, you would think that the Tribunal happened because you were too slow with the investigation, that there could have been dizains of outcome of the Tribunal, etc etc.

But then people savescum, read spoilers, tear down the veil and realize that the real "choice and consequence" is much more narrow than it looks and they are frustrated. Well, tough for you. For people who are used to play games in no spoiler / no minmax / no savescum, the game was immensely satisfying, it just flowed organically.

The game does not resist a second playthrough, but I don't feel developers should care too much about more playthrough than one when the first playthrough is already some 20 hours long. I haven't replayed RPG since I was a teenager.

I feel like that's why opinions are so different on this game.

I did not savescum at all on my first playthrough, either. I only looked up all the choices AFTER I've finished the game. Linear paths are not at all a good thing for RPG's. It's like you were duped into thinking that your choices matter and you are actually okay with this deception. It's strange to read about something like this. And no replays ever? I'm not sure if you're actually an RPG fan because that's like half the fun of RPG's to most RPG fans. You're probably an adventure game fan at most.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
11,908
Ex-machina main game ending...Spoiler alert, a fucking hobo on a completely different island killed the Hanged Man. His motive? He's a stupid commie and just wants to kill a random "fascist".
There are myriad clues scattered throughout the game about the true culprit, if you manage to obtain them. A small selection:

iWOArt0.jpg
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,278
Location
Terra da Garoa
It's a lot like replaying Planet Escape: Tournament in this sense. Going in blind there's the twist in the end that surprises you, but some signs are clear when you replay and know what's going on. Like Sixth Sense.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,801
I did not savescum at all on my first playthrough, either. I only looked up all the choices AFTER I've finished the game. Linear paths are not at all a good thing for RPG's. It's like you were duped into thinking that your choices matter and you are actually okay with this deception.
To be frank, how many cRPGs have non-linear paths? And how many of them fake non-linearlity?
 

ValeVelKal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,605
And no replays ever? I'm not sure if you're actually an RPG fan because that's like half the fun of RPG's to most RPG fans. You're probably an adventure game fan at most.

We are in 2020. There are enough games to play and too little time in my life that I feel like it is worth it to play games several times. In my experience, in most RPG the second play through shares 80% of the content or more with the first one. So no I don’t replay.
I suspect you don't have a family yet, and possibly are still a student or younger. You might carry on replaying after that, but you will be a bit more understanding with those who don't.

As for choices vs illusion of choice, they all use some illusion of choice to some extent. Out of the 20 "best RPG according to the Codex", I played 14 and story-wise I would say 10 are mostly about the illusion of choice or no choice at all. I don't count choosing your fate in the very final hour of the game as a "choice" btw.

For instance, Gothic is great and offer you three factions with their quests & storyline, but whatever happens, the Red Mages will betray everyone and you will be thrown into the same endgame path. It is STILL a great game and the first time you play it you just don't care because it felt like in my case that it was due to me choosing the New Camp, not because they are hardcoded to betray you.

And yes, that Shiver test locking progression in DE is a design mistake (can players find themselves in a walking dead scenario ?), and yes Age of Decadence is one of the exceptions to what I said above
 
Last edited:

Verylittlefishes

Sacro Bosco
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2019
Messages
4,731
Location
Oneoropolis
Didn't read the thread, but I think that Hanged man's killer is "McGuffin", a plot driving device, an excuse to show you the world of the Pale.

For me, the true culmination wasn't finding the killer, it was the phasmid conversation at the very same (!) spot.
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
Patron
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
7,513
Location
Pronouns: rusts/rusty
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture

TemplarGR

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
5,815
Location
Cradle of Western Civilization
We are in 2020. There are enough games to play and too little time in my life that I feel like it is worth it to play games several times. In my experience, in most RPG the second play through shares 80% of the content or more with the first one. So no I don’t replay.
I suspect you don't have a family yet, and possibly are still a student or younger. You might carry on replaying after that, but you will be a bit more understanding with those who don't :).

As for choices vs illusion of choice, they all use some illusion of choice for some extent. Out of the 20 "best RPG according to the Codex", I played 14 and story-wise I would say 10 are mostly about illusion of choice, or no choice at all. I don't count choosing your fate in the very final hour of the game as a "choice" btw.

For instance Gothic is great and offer you three factions with their quests & storyline, but whatever happen the Red Mage will betray everyone and you will be thrown into the same endgame path. It is STILL a great game and the first time you play it you just don't care because it felt like in my case that it was due to me choosing the New Camp, not because they are hardcoded to betray you.

And yes, that Shiver test locking progression in DE is a design mistake (can players find themselves in a walking dead scenario ?), and yes Age of Decadence is one of the exceptions to what I said above

I get what you are saying, an you are free to enjoy what you enjoy, but why call it an RPG then and why present it like it has player choice, while it has not? That is false advertising, you know. I mean, it is prefectly OK to prefer storyfag linear adventure games for your entertainment, but why pretend they are roleplaying games?

Your excuse is the most decline thing i have read on this forum in a long time, and i have read a lot of retarded shit on this forum from supposed RPG fans. Your answer to "well Disco Elysium has a lot of issues" is "well it felt nice enjoying the ride once so i don't care, it is still the best RPG". Seriously?

Many people don't replay games. But they do want to know that their choices mattered. When people praise games like Fallout or Witcher 3, the vast majority of them only finished them once, if at all. But they liked the fact that their choices matted for something and changed a few things. Because that is what makes it an RPG. While here you are, telling us "there is nothing really to chose in Disco Elysium cause the story is linear and there is no combat, but i liked the story i read so it i don't mind".

In order to understand it better, imagine if let's say Sid Meyer's Civilization VI was linear. Imagine if every Civilization was exactly the same, and every map was the same, and every "random event" was essentially prescripted and linear. Now imagine someone who plays a marathon campaign that lasts 20-30h and never touches it again. Should he visit 4X forums and claim that game is the best strategy 4X game he has ever played, and when people tell him that it was essentially a book and not a 4X game because everything was linear and scripted and his choices didn't matter, his answer would be "well i only have time to playthrough games once, so for me it was perfect i had my fun, i won't replay it to notice the sameness".
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,292
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
We are in 2020. There are enough games to play and too little time in my life that I feel like it is worth it to play games several times. In my experience, in most RPG the second play through shares 80% of the content or more with the first one. So no I don’t replay.
I suspect you don't have a family yet, and possibly are still a student or younger. You might carry on replaying after that, but you will be a bit more understanding with those who don't :)
I understand you, I have games I wish I would replay, but don't have time to. Have to prioritize.

One clever way to replay games is to convince your wife to play them for the first time (if you convinced her to marry you, shouldn't be as difficult), while you sit by and direct her, usually with comments like "now couldn't you see that?!"

Didn't read the thread, but I think that Hanged man's killer is "McGuffin", a plot driving device, an excuse to show you the world of the Pale.

For me, the true culmination wasn't finding the killer, it was the phasmid conversation at the very same (!) spot.
This is like watching True Detective and percieving the criminal being caught as the culmination. It's about the journey, not the destination. I really should sit down and finish my review of Disco...
 

ValeVelKal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,605
I get what you are saying, an you are free to enjoy what you enjoy, but why call it an RPG then and why present it like it has player choice, while it has not? That is false advertising, you know. I mean, it is prefectly OK to prefer storyfag linear adventure games for your entertainment, but why pretend they are roleplaying games?

Your excuse is the most decline thing i have read on this forum in a long time, and i have read a lot of retarded shit on this forum from supposed RPG fans. Your answer to "well Disco Elysium has a lot of issues" is "well it felt nice enjoying the ride once so i don't care, it is still the best RPG". Seriously?

You compare to W3 and Fallout. I haven't played W3 yet sadly, but I daresay that DE is not different from F2 or FNV (F1 is a lot stronger in that regard) : in Fallout 2 whatever your actions you always end up in the Enclave offshore platform after hitting, as a first time player, roughly the same areas though not necessarily in the same order.
FNV looks better from that point of view with a choice of "faction" but the "endgame choice" only comes in the last hours of the game, and whatever decisions you took earlier on to support Caesar or the FNV is neutered by the representatives of both telling you they will wipe your record clean if you join them - making all previous choices in that regard irrelevant. Yes, you can have the Khans and / or the boomers help you as well, but their help is cosmetic and you only get a different endcard for their troubles.

What's interesting in RPG is the journey, not the destination Whether you were a brute or a nice guy in Fallout or FNV, whethere you were communist supercop who keeps thinking about his former GF or a racist sorry cop fascinated by a long retired boxer in DE. I would say DE has as many choices or more than the RPG in that regards. The storyline almost always develops the same way, but what matters is how your build and your character interacts with this storyline.


As for comparing to strategy game - I believe that strategy/tactical/sim games is where you will find non-illusory choice & consequence indeed. But my logic is the opposite of yours : I don't replay RPG because a huge chunk of the experience will be the same the second time (only non-roguelike exception I know of : AoD), and because I don't replay RPG I don't care much whether the consequences of choices I did are really consequences or if I was astutely led to believe it was a consequence when in reality it was hardcoded - as long as it felt true in my one and only playthrough I am good.
On a strategy game, I expect to replay the game, sometimes a lot (though not with the same country / settings / starting position etc). If I realize there is only one dominating strategy and that all my playthrough look 50% the same, then either it is a bad strategy game or it is a Gary Grisby game.

Incidentally, that's the reason why all my Let's Play // AAR are on strategy/tactical/management games - viewers will have a 100% unique experience/reading, rather than an experience that they already know 80% of.
 
Last edited:

Egosphere

Arcane
Joined
Jan 25, 2018
Messages
1,909
Location
Hibernia
I enjoyed the first day of investigation, not much else. The tribunal is ok if you have any other build than high Reaction/E-H, which is what I had. That made the whole thing feel like a slap in the face.

How did it make you feel when you found out that the 2nd reaction skill check was hard coded to fail?

That was the moment where the game took a nosedive in quality, for me. Simply because I had been building up my character with high reaction, h-e and perception, had the gun and enough bullets to take out the merc mob, thought it was my build's moment to shine, yet the game simply refuses to acknowledge any of that. I started skim reading the dialogue from that point onwards and rushing to just wrap up the whole thing.
 

Verylittlefishes

Sacro Bosco
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2019
Messages
4,731
Location
Oneoropolis
This is like watching True Detective and percieving the criminal being caught as the culmination.

If we are talking about Season 1 (because there is only One True True Detective), well, yes, the culmination is pretty intense there:

latest


Godhood ending, mate.

I didn't get that one, how do you do it?
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
5,837
The commie on an island was the most disappointing thing about the ending, to be honest. It makes the whole detective aspect of the game inconsequential, as basically none of the investigation you did matters – the motives you looked for? Don't matter, it's just a retarded commie with a hardon killing someone who cucked him. Clues you've collected? All just red herrings or shit that never would have pointed you to the right place anyway (such as the murder weapon being something he got from guerrilas in some shithole, come the fuck on).
 

Atum

Barely Literate
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
3
Generally agreed with the points already made, but strap in, ‘cuz here’s some more thoughts.



First off, I think “Disco Elysium” is genuinely brilliant. I think it’s somewhat misunderstood on a few key points.



It’s not designed to be replayed. It just isn’t. It’s a one-and-done sort of thing. There are not different ‘builds’ that you are expected to ‘try.’ It is not a traditional role-play in the sense that you are a figuring out its ‘systems’ and wearing different ‘roles’ as a costume. The role you are playing is yourself, and it challenges you in how securely you are yourself. Why do you think the way you do? Can you justify that? And unlike the majority of basement-dwelling mommy-fucking closet-fascists who secrete their gummy residue all over the Codex, I in no way agree that this is some fundamental flaw in Disco’s design. You’re only supposed to play it once.



Let’s get weird. What Disco most reminds me of is actually “The Talos Principle,” a puzzle game put out by Croteam a few years ago. Talos is not by any measure a proper RPG, but it has this system where you constantly get into dialogs with ‘Milton,’ an AI librarian who essentially functions as the game’s analog for a biblican Satan. Your conversations with Milton don’t really affect the game at all. There’s some limited consequence on what ending you get, but it doesn’t change the game at all. You’re still just solving puzzles. No matter what happens with Milton, there are no real ‘choices or consequences.’ However, the Milton dialogs are so weirdly well written, and so exceptionally adaptive to your responses, that Talos ends up being one of the most satisfying RPGs I’ve ever played – even though it’s not ‘really’ an RPG, and the ‘role’ you are playing is, again, yourself. But the Milton dialogs are uncommonly good at tasking you with explaining why you think the way you do, and Milton is very, very good at calling you out on your bullshit and getting into your head in uncomfortable ways. I doubt I will ever replay Talos; after all, the puzzles are always the same. Nothing will really be different. I also doubt I will ever forget it.



I think Disco is sort of the same thing. No, there is very little dynamism in terms of the actual story. I myself thought that the ‘phasmid’ ending was something particular to my playthrough, only to find in this thread that nah, even that is standard. But here’s the thing: It appears to me that the tone of Disco varies wildly, far more than any other game I’ve ever played. Case in point, Disco is repeatedly described on the Codex as some paean to communism. Oh boy, that is so utterly not the game I played. I played Disco as essentially myself – albeit a slightly more alcoholic, drug-sodden version of myself – and the game was crazily adaptive to that. I don’t want to make this too personal, but I’m basically a free market New Leftist, a contradiction in terms. Disco let me play Harry as precisely that, in a way that no game otherwise has ever granted, and it appears to me that the ‘choices and consequences’ of Disco actually pertain to this adaptive tone. The game I played was sardonically critical of both capitalism and communism while generally supportive of laize-faire principles. Zed Duke posted a bunch of screengrabs that show that his playthrough was specifically critical of communism (with dialog options that I myself never received). It seems that the ‘standard’ playthrough of Disco depicted in reviews is generally critical of capitalism and somewhat amenable to communism.



In other words, Disco isn’t dynamic in the sense that the story will change between playthroughs; it is dyamic in the sense that it is constantly pushing you on, again, why you think the way you do. This is precisely why Disco can be hugely variable between playthroughs, yet not very meaningful in terms of ‘replayability.’ You are not going to change appreciably enough between playthroughs for it to matter, but what Disco ‘means’ to each different person in that one playthrough does indeed appear to be very, very different. And while people here are critical of the final ‘evaluation’ dialog at the end, I thought it was astonishing. Kim describes me as “essentially a communist who nevertheless harbors free-market principles. He’s probably psychotic, but it seems to work for him.” I have friends who understand the New Left stuff. I have friends who understand the free market stuff. No one has ever recognized the same existing in me simultaneously, except for these crazy assholes who made Disco Elysium. I’ll always appreciate it for that, just like how I’ll always treasure some bizarre puzzle game called The Talos Principle for engaging me in a dialog on existentialism, spirituality, morality, and religiosity in a far more compelling manner than what I would get from most actual people I know in reality – or from most proper RPGs.



So that’s my point. I think people harangue Disco, especially around here, basically for not being what they want it to be – fundamentally, a power fantasy. They concoct a bunch of specious ‘reasons’ for why it’s not a proper RPG or some such bullshit, which is really just the hall-monitoring typical of broken men without any real power. They babble about how Disco dernt have COMBAT so it’s not a GOOD RPG without realizing that Disco simply obfuscates its ‘combat’ in a different way – the combat is your own internal dialog. But because you aren’t killing another rat for 5 XP, it’s not a true RPG. And because you aren’t given the ‘option’ to build your character as a strengthy ogre vs a roguey elf – and then go kill a bunch of fucking rats in slightly different ways – also clearly means its not a true RPG. Bullshit. I can’t even say Disco is entirely critical of authoritarian fascism, ‘cuz I’m pretty sure it also gives you the ability to play the game as a full-fat jackboot. What Disco truly appears to be critical of is dipshits who accept hand-me-down ideological realities without any personal, critical faculty whatsoever. And sure, I can see why that really pisses off some of the pasty mommy-fucking wannabee Hitlers on these here forums.



That said, yes, the ending is rushed. I agree though that it’s really kind of an epilogue. Also Disco seems to position itself as some sort of film noir, and it’s not that out of the ordinary for a film noir – where it ends up the ‘resolution’ to the mystery never really mattered, was really kind of arbitrary and random. It’s a fairly standard existentialist trope in noir. See also: literally everything from The Maltese Falcon to Double Indemnity. That said, nah, the ending isn’t as well written or foreshadowed as the rest of the game. And personally I hated the whole phasmid ending, because it felt like a big heap of magical realism bullshit plastered on top of what had heretofore been a pretty blunt work of pragmatic philosophy. But the only reason I would be critical in that way is because Disco was so good otherwise; generally I don’t give a shit about lapses into magical realism because, frankly, most RPGs are so absoutely stupid that why would I care?



TL;DR: Disco ain’t supposed to be replayed. You can clutch pearls on this point, or denigrate it as an ‘adventure game’ or an ‘ebook,’ but it’s kind of pathetic to do so. Also, for what it’s worth, only broken morons would actually replay something like Baldur’s Gate more than once – yet that is regarded as a ‘masterpiece’ by Codex churls, and Disco is regarded as some sort of pablum. In other words, the general critical consensus of Codex tends to be established by pseudointellectual basement fascists who severely overestimate their own critical faculty. Disco is more or less the game that Codexers were whining about for a decade, but then they rejected it because MUH COMBAT and because it criticized their childishly unexamined fascist/Superman presumptions.
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom