Wizardry & Disco Elysium: how are these games the same genre?

[gurugeorge]

All the genres are somewhat arbitrary and fall out of some blend of a few elements,e.g. logical puzzle solving, simulation, story-telling (which includes choice/consequence), competition (combat), combined with what technical limitations will forbid and allow.

Chess and similar board games have everything except story-telling, but their simulation element is very light, and limited by the ancient technology of bits of wood or whatever, which by default brings puzzle solving and competition to the fore. But if you were the scion of a rich lord in the olden days, you might be able to afford full wargaming sets and learn some of the intricacies of real war on the floor or on a giant table - there the simulation element would be a bit more emphasized.

Adventure games are a blend of puzzle solving, simulation and story-telling.

CRPGs are a blend of all the elements (with the puzzle solving being related to resource management and character building, etc.).

There's also the possibility of "nesting" - e.g. beating the game, any game, is itself an element of competition at the meta level.

What everybody wants, ultimately, is perfect simulation, because all these things fold back into simulation. Except not quite the perfect simulation, but rather, the perfect simulation in which it's easier to "win" in than in real life. Also the perfect simulation plus fantastical or science-fictional or superheroic elements, which heighten the emotion in the way GRR Martin talks about.

The perfect simulation in which the difficulty slider is just a tad to the easier side than in real life - not God mode, but comprised of challenges that it's easier to overcome. There's a sweet spot there, where you find happiness by facing challenges that are JUST on the edge of what you're capable of, and beating them. A microcosm in which it's possible to be a winner, or to dream of being a winner. (And that isn't necessarily a pejorative basement-dweller reference, lots of real-life winners are also gamers - "beating" things is their metier, and they do it at work and at leisure.)

But in pursuit of the perfect simulation, the relative limitations of technology have sort of sloughed off "genres" which have their own quirks, arising out of their limitations, which people grow to be fond of (perhaps because they grew up with them, or they just tickle their fancy in some way).

 

[barghwata]

So? There is a Starcraft RPG too.

What? that wasn't my point at all, i only mentioned "Alchemist of istanbul" to point out that Daughter of serpents has an RPG character creation system, does Starcraft have a char gen system i didn't hear about?

I doubt that the rules of this "Alchemist of Istanbul" forcibly prevent you from shooting somebody because you feel like it.

Yes... that's why i said it's a hybrid, not a full RPG.

Except that nowadays every fucking shooter or action adventure has it.

Meh, unlocking a weapon in call of duty after a killstreak isn't a character creation system, when you see this you don't think "Shooter" you think RPG

Not easy to put in a category of RPG, indeed.

And if you played enough adventure games you would realise that it's not easy to put in the adventure category either.

 

[Casual Hero]

This whole thread is triggering.

 

[Grauken]

What does genre even mean to you that this can be seen as worthwhile spending countless hours arguing over?

It means nothing. They just enjoy bashing Disco Elysium.

That's why we just have to casually mention it won RPG Codex of the Year award to see them fly into a fit of rage

Works every time and is just funny to watch

 

[luj1]

when you see this you don't think "Shooter" you think RPG

It's RPG-like in appearance only. That's like having 24 Persuade skills, let's be real here.

 

[mibbles]

@ me when consensus is reached.

 

[Grauken]

@ me when consensus is reached.

you're clearly expecting that nobody ever @ you, we are wise to your ways

 

[mondblut]

So? There is a Starcraft RPG too.

What? that wasn't my point at all, i only mentioned "Alchemist of istanbul" to point out that Daughter of serpents has an RPG character creation system, does Starcraft have a char gen system i didn't hear about?

My point is that having a tabletop RPG tie-in product by no means ensures that the videogame is anywhere near a CRPG. As proven by countless shitty D&D-based action games, of all things.

Yes... that's why i said it's a hybrid, not a full RPG.

It was not a hybrid, it was adventure game through and through, with certain paths through it being locked or unlocked depending on whichever setup you picked at the start of the game.

Meh, unlocking a weapon in call of duty after a killstreak isn't a character creation system, when you see this you don't think "Shooter" you think RPG

Or a strategy game. Or a sport sim. It's 2020, customizing the entity you control in a game got about as mainstream as customizing keybindings.

And if you played enough adventure games you would realise that it's not easy to put in the adventure category either.

That's for adventure games fans to have headaches over. Let them kick it out to flight sims for all I care, just don't bring it back to us

 

[mondblut]

All the genres are somewhat arbitrary

Genres are set by precedents. You combine X and Y and Z, get a hit, get clones, and thus a genre is born.

What everybody wants, ultimately, is perfect simulation, because all these things fold back into simulation.

What we want is a perfect simulation of playing D&D except without those pesky other people. Not a fucking holodeck.

 

[gurugeorge]

All the genres are somewhat arbitrary

Genres are set by precedents. You combine X and Y and Z, get a hit, get clones, and thus a genre is born.

Sure, and those combinations arise out of what's possible technologically - here, the possibility of interacting via pointing and clicking, there the possibility of a database that keeps track of inventory and statistics, there again, the possibility moving through a represented 2-d space, or a 3-d space, etc., etc. But they're all approximations towards simulation that fall on abstraction when simulation isn't possible.

What everybody wants, ultimately, is perfect simulation, because all these things fold back into simulation.

What we want is a perfect simulation of playing D&D except without those pesky other people. Not a fucking holodeck.

But what's happening in a P&P situation other than a shared adventure in a shared virtual holodeck in peoples' minds? I think the only sense in which you're right is that we probably don't want to be physically exercising ourselves moving our bodies in that way, we'd prefer to sit in chairs and experience it

But I can see younger, fitter people going for more holodeck-proper experiences in the future. Imagine being able to LARP in virtual environments where your party members actually look like amazing specimens of elfkind and humanity, instead of studio-tanned bugmen and speccy bluehairs

 

[mondblut]

Sure, and those combinations arise out of what's possible technologically - here, the possibility of interacting via pointing and clicking, there the possibility of a database that keeps track of inventory and statistics, there again, the possibility moving through a represented 2-d space, or a 3-d space, etc., etc. But they're all approximations towards simulation that fall on abstraction when simulation isn't possible.

What does Tetris "simulate"?

But what's happening in a P&P situation other than a shared adventure in a shared virtual holodeck in peoples' minds?

In a P&P situation straight men roll dice and calculate bonuses. Because it's fun.

Shared virtual holodecks are for poofters.

 

[gurugeorge]

Sure, and those combinations arise out of what's possible technologically - here, the possibility of interacting via pointing and clicking, there the possibility of a database that keeps track of inventory and statistics, there again, the possibility moving through a represented 2-d space, or a 3-d space, etc., etc. But they're all approximations towards simulation that fall on abstraction when simulation isn't possible.

What does Tetris "simulate"?

But what's happening in a P&P situation other than a shared adventure in a shared virtual holodeck in peoples' minds?

In a P&P situation straight men roll dice and calculate bonuses. Because it's fun.

Shared virtual holodecks are for poofters.

Puzzles are an abstraction of problem solving - like arithmetic is in relation to sorting sheep. Tetris is kind of like an abstraction of optimal luggage packing with a twitch element. (It's particularly appealing to girls who like to keep things neat and tidy, at least my ex was like that - she couldn't do anything else for like 3 weeks, needed intravenous drip, etc.)

Don't deny your inner nerd

 

[Grauken]

mondblut doesn't have an inner nerd, its all knives on the inside

 

[samuraigaiden]

What is an RPG? No seriously, answer it.

DE has status, skills checks, character development.

Severance has all that and nobody in their right mind thinks it’s an RPG. It’s an action game with RPG elements, just as much as DE is an Adventure game with RPG elements.

 

[Ol' Willy]

In a P&P situation straight men roll dice and calculate bonuses. Because it's fun.

By Jove, at least someone still remembers what real fun is! Cheers, mate

 

[V_K]

What does genre even mean to you that this can be seen as worthwhile spending countless hours arguing over?

It means nothing. They just enjoy bashing Disco Elysium.

That's why we just have to casually mention it won RPG Codex of the Year award

...which it nearly lost to a metroidvania.

 

[Butter]

Metroidvanias and roguelike card games are just as much RPGs as Disco Elysium is, haters.

 

[Grauken]

What does genre even mean to you that this can be seen as worthwhile spending countless hours arguing over?

It means nothing. They just enjoy bashing Disco Elysium.

That's why we just have to casually mention it won RPG Codex of the Year award

...which it nearly lost to a metroidvania.

If you know my taste you would realize I would enjoy that even more

 

[Ashigara]

Tabletop RPGs may evolve from war games but they became basically in their aim a fantasy / sci-fi simulator for doing stuff in fictional geeky worlds - a simulator for nerds to live in the favorite settings.... So I don't think combat is necccecary honestly.... Doing shit in nerd settings through a wide variety of rules is neccecary.

What is Disco Elysium like? Is it nerdy enough? Because the real decline for me would be if we started having pedestrian un imaginative worlds that are too much like our own, like a fucking medical soap opera RPG.

 

[Pope Amole II]

With years I've come to conclusion that any RPG fandom is a fucking cult and so all this "Is X an RPG?" is mostly a question of blind faith anyways. If you wish to believe that Disco is an RPG - it will be an RPG. For you, at the very least. Facts don't really matter here - if it were up to the facts, we'd see a different codexian top-70, for example.

 

[ValeVelKal]

There was the discussion earlier on, there are other RPG without combat (or where combat are like in DE - not a separate system) :

- the Council
- Eastshade
- Golden Sky

And then there are RPG where they put combat because people expected it but really it looks like an afterthought, in particular Ultima Adventure : Martian Dreams

 

[gurugeorge]

I dunno, for a game to not have combat, the writing has to be REALLY interesting, and not cucked.

Otherwise combat is just more fun, because it's intricate and exciting, something to get your teeth into.

 

[luj1]

- the Council

thats a mystery solving visual novel mate, the fuck you talking about

- Eastshade

first person adventure game and a walking sim, if this is an RPG then Myst is one too

- Golden Sky

Looks like a boardgame for children, it doesn't even use dice

So yeah, no one was able to name a CRPG without combat yet because a true RPG is a combat simulation by definition

 

[ValeVelKal]

the Council

thats a mystery solving visual novel mate, the fuck you talking about

Do side quests, gain experience, develop your character, progress along the story.
You know many mystery solving game // visual novels with side quests, choices & consequences and "looting" stuff (though equipment could be more developed) ?

- Eastshade

first person adventure game and a walking sim, if this is an RPG then Myst is one too

Same here. Eastshade has exploration, choices & consequences, equipment, side quests. It is basically Oblivion without guns.

 

[ValeVelKal]

the Council

thats a mystery solving visual novel mate, the fuck you talking about

Do side quests, gain experience, develop your character, progress along the story.
You know many mystery solving game // visual novels with side quests, choices & consequences and "looting" stuff (though equipment could be more developed) ?

- Eastshade

first person adventure game and a walking sim, if this is an RPG then Myst is one too

Same here. Eastshade has exploration, choices & consequences, equipment, side quests. It is basically Oblivion without guns.

So yeah, no one was able to name a CRPG without combat yet because a true RPG is a combat simulation by definition

Again, if RPG is a "combat simulation by definition" there would not be RPG where combat would be totally secondary to the game like Ultima VII ("press C to kill all enemies") or even fully avoidable (famously Fallout ^^, or Undertale)​