Are you a Storyfag or a Gameplayfag?

[Sweeper]

It's actually very rewarded through loot

Not really necessary, even on dominating. You'll have too much loot just by killing enemies during quests.

the oddity system

Exploration becomes more important on oddity sure, but most oddities still aren't located in really far off areas.

non lineair level design.

Yup, that's why I play RPGs, for the non linear level design.

Piranha Bytes games have excellent exploration and level design, but that's simply icing on the cake.
The meat of the game is still combat and progression.

 

[Norfleet]

Without an actual game to play, you may as well be watching it on the Youtube.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

 

[GrafvonMoltke]

 

[barghwata]

Not really necessary, even on dominating. You'll have too much loot just by killing enemies during quests.

Sure, but some of the best loot in the game can be found by exploring.

Exploration becomes more important on oddity sure, but most oddities still aren't located in really far off areas.

Doesn't matter, closer areas have much more then enough content and exploration in them.

Yup, that's why I play RPGs, for the non linear level design.

Piranha Bytes games have excellent exploration and level design, but that's simply icing on the cake.
The meat of the game is still combat and progression.

Meh, whether you play for it or not it's still there, and it's quite rewarding for less combat focused builds that require alternative and discreet methods to finish quests.

 

[Sweeper]

Sure, but some of the best loot in the game can be found by exploring.

Best loot is crafted. Always.

Doesn't matter, closer areas have much more then enough content and exploration in them.

I mean, simply by doing quests you'll explore everything worth exploring, going into non-quest areas is rarely if ever worth it.

Meh, whether you play for it or not it's still there, and it's quite rewarding for less combat focused builds that require alternative and discreet methods to finish quests.

Now this is interesting. I've never really considered it but I'm gonna come up with a pacifist build. See where it takes me.

 

[barghwata]

Best loot is crafted. Always.

Agreed, unless you're playing a non-crafting build.

I mean, simply by doing quests you'll explore everything worth exploring, going into non-quest areas is rarely if ever worth it.

Yes but you can still do some exploring while on your way to those quests, in some cases i even found myself accidentally doing quests before i recieved them just by exploring only to realise it later and get the rewards.

Now this is interesting. I've never really considered it but I'm gonna come up with a pacifist build. See where it takes me.

Pacifist? who said anything about pacifist, i said "discreet", you can kill people discreetly, i am currently playing a stealth/hack build and it's working just great, sometimes i finish quests with little to no combat and even when i have to fight, i just snipe enemies from afar with sniper/stealth perks.

 

[Sweeper]

Pacifist? who said anything about pacifist

I did, I'm gonna try a pacifist run.
Should be doable by cheesing Force Field with Force User and flashbangs with Grenadier, and stealth of course.

 

[barghwata]

I did, I'm gonna try a pacifist run.
Should be doable by cheesing Force Field with Force User and flashbangs with Grenadier, and stealth of course.

You might be onto something...........

 

[M. AQVILA]

the dark past of poasting outside the polotix forum

Video gaymes are for fags and nerds. I have found better entertainment in the real life game of modern politics. I do enjoy tragicomedies.

 

[fantadomat]

In RPGs, exploration is paramount, even over combat and certainly over story.

And your example is boring game like Legend of Grimrock 2,where most people couldn't even finish it because boredom??? If you argue about exploration use a good game that is not linear like grimrock 2 lol.

 

[Ol' Willy]

exploration and treading off the beaten track if often times punished and not particularly well rewarded

Indeed, my man, that's the point. Why some mysterious reward should await you in some god-forsaken cave? Who put it there, at the very end, and left undisturbed for years? This is an old gaming cliche that is followed too often.

Exploration should be a gamble. Maybe you will find something valuable. Maybe you will just waste your resources.

 

[Sweeper]

Indeed, my man, that's the point. Why some mysterious reward should await you in some god-forsaken cave? Who put it there, at the very end, and left undisturbed for years? This is an old gaming cliche that is followed too often.

Exploration should be a gamble. Maybe you will find something valuable. Maybe you will just waste your resources.

That's fair.
Except in Underrail, because of crafting, you literally have no incentive to go exploring for loot. You visit merchants every 90 minutes to check out what they got.
On oddity you can gain plenty by simply exploring the areas you're already going to visit for quests, and a couple of nearby side areas.
Really, the only incentive to go to the really isolated areas of Underrail is if you're playing on Classic and you want to grind out exp.
It makes those areas feel as if they have no purpose. And I'm not saying that every single area in a game has to be filled with loot or unique enemies, but it'd be nice to have at least some areas that aren't quest related that feel worth conquering and exploring.
That's probably my only major gripe with Underrail.

 

[Serus]

The story aspect of games can easily be replaced by so many other things: books, magazines, TV, movies, or even people who are good at telling stories, and is usually done much better.
[...]
So in the end I think it's sad too witness the emphasis on stories in CRPGs, and it's sad to read the words "I play games for the story".

So much this.

In addition i have a hypothesis why this happens. I know some people will think it's me being edgy or looking for "retarded" or "butthurt" ratings but in reality I really do thik so. It goes like that:
If one would look at the amount of books CRPG gamers read one would find that gamers who are "storyfags" read a lot less. This why they look for stories in games. Because they simply don't know that there is a better selection of usually much higher quality stories in books. Why is another question. Perhaps simply because they were not thought to read books by their parents when young. Or maybe for some other reasons.
It doesn't mean that it applies to every individual. So You (yes I talking to You) dear storyfag, You perhaps personally have a different reason. I am only talking about some general tendencies. Unfortunately probably no one will ever try to seriously check this hypothesis. So, no I don't have any proofs. At best some anecdoctal evidence and my guts.

 

[Sweeper]

If you try and write in the vidya standard, of the usual boring fetch quests or kill quests, with the usual boring NPC and companion conversations, with an overarching story where the PC is the chosen one, or even if not, you'll fail. It's been done to death and frankly as a writing system it's not particularly good. P:ST is the one time it really worked, but there was a lot of shit there too. It was excellent, but only by vidya standards.

The true potential for vidya story telling lies in world building, random events, lore and set pieces. In Fallout 3, and bare with me now, there were those little set pieces of skeletons with a gun and a box of ammo next to them, or some psycho or jet. It's simple but effective storytelling and worldbuilding, granted, Bethesda sucked at most other aspects of writing and worldbuilding but those set pieces really stayed with me.

Make an open world with compelling factions, make random events feel natural, make the NPC conversations feel natural. Oblivion conversations are a meme for a good reason, but if it were done right it could prove to be an amazing source of storytelling. Just listening to what's happening in NPCs lives, make it compelling. Avoid standard quests, the PC doesn't have to be an active force that drives the story. Make him an observer, and the world itself should be the force that drives the story. Also fuck cutscenes.

Of course, it's obviously easier to program a quest with set paramaters than it is to do something like this. That's frankly the main thing that holds back vidya from actually having believable, live worlds. And that I think is where the strongest potential for storytelling is in vidya.

I'm probably gonna catch a plate of hot shit for saying this, but when I think about it Bethesda really did manage to create some compelling methods of storytelling. The lore and world of Morrowind, random events (even though they ultimately suck in Bethesda games, as a storytelling method I think it's ingenious). Fallout 3 set pieces. Randomized Oblivion conversations, even though it's just a huge meme, and rightly so, could be amazing if pulled off right.

On the other hand New Vegas and Arcanum are obvious examples of worldbuilding done right in the static sense, and that's where Bethesda sucks dick.

And I forgot Metro 2033, that's a good example of NPC conversations done right. Blended in with the atmospheric sounds and guitar music of the metro. There were some awesome moments there.

TL;DR: Living breathing worlds are the best potential vidya has of storytelling, and it's one that books don't have.
Until they perfect it, vidya writing will remain shallow and inedequate compared to actual novels.

 

[Theldaran]

CRPGs should be about delivering a decent ROLEPLAYING experience.

One way to do that is to mimic a tabletop game. But not the only one.

Suffice to say that crawling through dungeons can be as satisfying as a good story. That's only an aspect of the whole RPG thing, but it has many fans as evidenced by the many roguelikes, roguelites, and dungeon crawlers of all types available today.

The roleplaying experience includes more than loot, combat and leveling, like moral choices with their consequence, and more. Basically, how you play your character as a living person apart from your sheet.

Anyway, you'll probably be hard pressed to find RPGs with a superb story, since it's not the forte. For that you have many types of adventure games, such as point and click, even visual novels, those games do revolve around the story and are considerably more cinematographic. You even have film/game hybrids like Quantic Dream games, now on PC. Notice how in an RPG focused on the story and setting, like Planescape Torment, they had to invest less on combat and else because you can't have it all. And you certainly can't.

Another aspect where good RPGs and pure stories are opposite is that, in one you play your character with a certain degree of freedom, in the other most often you're railroaded by what the authors want to convey. I can't play "Last day of June" any other way than with the story the authors made. In RPGs this still would be the case, but with much more leeway for the player, and way more replayability.

 

[Ol' Willy]

little set pieces of skeletons with a gun and a box of ammo next to them, or some psycho or jet.

It's called "environmental storytelling". Bethesda now puts it everywhere in ridiculous amounts.

 

[Sweeper]

The roleplaying

Roleplayers are by far the biggest fags. Storyfags ain't got nothing on' em.

It's called "environmental storytelling". Bethesda now puts it everywhere in ridiculous amounts.

It was meh in Oblivion but pretty good in Fallout 3. Kinda shit in Skyrim.
Still it's a pretty good way to tell a story in passing and to build the world.

 

[Theldaran]

The roleplaying

Roleplayers are by far the biggest fags. Storyfags ain't got nothing on' em.

Yeah, whatever. Remove the R and P. Stay with CG only. Play Yooka-Laylee or whatever.

 

[Sweeper]

Yeah, whatever. Remove the R and P. Stay with CG only. Play Yooka-Laylee or whatever.

I'm autistic, but at least I ain't autistic enough to roleplay in a fucking vidya.
RPGs are about character building and combat.

 

[Theldaran]

Yeah, roleplaying in a ROLEPLAYING game? Preposterous!

They're not only about sheets and fights, the dialogue is still important and if it's cringe it affects the game negatively.

That said, it's always nice when your class, build, or attributes influence dialogue and open up options.

A game with passable dialogue can still fly, but it's not to be very neglected. The combat is OK to give you the thrill of action, but the dialogue, the setting, the details, the characters, it all adds immersion and immersion is king. Immersion can be all the difference between finishing a game or not.

For example, Icewind Dale 2 is a pure combat and loot romp, but it's also a borefest and has bad immersion. I end up with no reason to play it.

In the end, if you ask me, it's pretty difficult to innovate, be it an RPG or a pure story.

 

[undecaf]

But what's an RPG guys?

 

[Theldaran]

But what's an RPG guys?

Go on an errand to list all games on Steam tagged as RPGs and only then come back.

Only then we can think of an answer.

 

[Sweeper]

For example, Icewind Dale 2 is a pure combat and loot romp, but it's also a borefest and has bad immersion

The RPfag shows his true colors.
Don't talk to me or my wife's son about RPGs ever again.

 

[undecaf]

Go on an errand to list all games on Steam tagged as RPGs and only then come back.

Only then we can think of an answer.

Nah. It's the people who are unsure, that are the ones squabbling about it and seeking the light.