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Advice for trying out some older RPG's

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,158
Hello all, I've read some codex articles over the years but never posted before. I have a question I'm hoping you can help me with.

I'm rather young, 27 years old, but I've never had a problem playing older video games until somewhat recently. I've been trying to get into some of the older PC RPG's but find myself bouncing off. In particular the Ultima series, Wizardry, and Might and Magic. RPG's have always been my favorite genre and I want to experience more of it's history. Additionally hearing stories about the detailed fantastical worlds and incredible complexity has made me honestly very interested in these games just on their own merits.

My problem getting into them stems mostly from lack of direction. I don't want my hand held by any means but it's frustrating to waste time getting lost because a game won't give you so much as a line of text saying what vague direction you should go or what it is you're looking to do. My first attempt at getting into these games was Ultima IV, I later tried out M&M4, and I also gave one of the D&D Goldbox games a try but I can't remember which one. All had the same problem where I would make a small amount of progress talking to NPC's and killing monsters and sooner or later would be wandering around having no clue what I'm suppose to be looking for and lose patience. I have a job and a life and a huge backlog of other games, feeling like I'm wasting time and not having fun is a mood killer.

So basically what I'm trying to ask is kind of a two-parter. Firstly, is there any kind of tip you can give me to get around this issue in a general sense? Secondly, of these three series where's the best starting point for someone with my problem?

The games were ton better at release when they were fresh and new , when it was magical and you saw technolgoy progress. Most of the very old games are inferior to every aspect to games like fallout or baldur's gate , the interface ,the loading times we had the suffer, those would be unthinkable today. You really should start with 2000 era games . To enjoy the gold box games now you need to use UI enchancement and automapper.
 

Thunar

Educated
Joined
Dec 29, 2019
Messages
98
There's not a lot that has aged well from the 80s, but the early 90s are filled with games that are in some ways better than their late 90s and early 2000 counterparts. A lot of them also look lovely, it'd be a mistake for any RPG fan to dismiss them.
U7, U6, Dark Sun, UUW, Wiz7, bloodstone, EoB, RoA, all of them have mechanics which you'll seldom find, even in the "renaissance era".
The lack of quest markers and the philosophy of just building an immersive world to get lost in is very hard to find in later years. They'd ask you to think about their story and figure out where to go to next, talking to people and following vague directions to find them. Once you understand how they play, it feels like you are actually investigating a huge mystery in an unforgiving world.
Arcanum is the only "renaissance" game that ever comes close to the feelings of drawing your own conclusions in order to progress. Fallout and Baldur's Gate contributed a lot of new things which were great but COMPLETELY missed the point of investigation and mystery.
 

Cat Dude

Savant
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
497
I couldn't finish fallout 3 and most of adventure games with obscure puzzles without looking up to walkthrough on internet.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Location
The Present
You'll need time, and lots of it. A sense of wonder and curiousity helps. Then it was possible to awe at the aesthetics and novelty, now you have to do that for technical or other abstract reasons. Finding a copy of the original manual is also a huge help, as many early games came with their own guides and walk-through.
 

Ecko

Barely Literate
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
3
So, what are you going to do Ecko?
Well I've started with Might and Magic 3: Isles of Terra. Downloaded the manual, quick reference guide, map, and cluebook from GOG. Read the entire manual and reference guide. I keep them both open with the map on my laptop while playing the game on my desktop. The cluebook is a few clicks away incase I need to check that, I'd rather use it than a walkthrough online.

I gotta say I never realized how much the manual would set up the context for the world and help immerse you in the game. So far I'm quite happy with my progress. Spent a couple hours re-rolling to get a decent starter party, and then little by little got my bearings in the game until I became comfortable with the layout and controls. Now I've cleared out the map surrounding the starting town of Fountain Head and made some good progress into the caverns below. Saw a note in the caverns saying to go into the swamps, went south to look for those and ran into a floating head that turned my entire party insane. Nice. I'm glad to say I'm really enjoying my time with the game. Everything seems to have "clicked" now, more or less. I don't feel lost and confused or overwhelmed by the combat. Surprised to find out that money is really tight in this game though. Especially if your party members die a lot.

I'd like to thank you all for the advice and push that helped me get into this. I think after MM3 I'm gonna hop over to another series, try another Ultima or D&D Goldbox game or maybe Lands of Lore.

One issue I do have with skipping up to Ultima 7 is that I hear it's universally agreed to be the best in the series. Can't help shake the feeling that would sour my experience with the earlier games if I played the best one first.
 

Ysaye

Arbiter
Joined
May 27, 2018
Messages
771
Location
Australia
You can essentially play Wizardry 1 in a similar form to the original version (ie. line walls and stuff) but with a more user-friendly interface (no typing archaic spell terms - the commands are just touchable on the side of the screen) via the Android App "Wandroid"; I think this also helps the time thing mentioned by others https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wandroid.ofmo.p&hl=en_AU. Wandroid also has an automapping ability so you won't have to paper-map as you go along (although it would be a more historically authentic experience if you did do the paper map thing).
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
the early 90s are filled with games that are in some ways better than their late 90s and early 2000 counterparts.

Give me one example of a "Golden Age" RPG that is superior to Fallout, Jagged Alliance 2 and Deus Ex.

U7, U6, Dark Sun, UUW, Wiz7, bloodstone, EoB, RoA, all of them have mechanics which you'll seldom find, even in the "renaissance era".

Like what?

it feels like you are actually investigating a huge mystery in an unforgiving world.

Fallout and Planescape: Torment do that best, and they are Renaissance-era RPGs. But investigating mysteries is not the most important part of RPGs: combat is. And Renaissance-era RPGs have much better combat than "Golden Age" ones. I cite Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and ToEE for starters. What can you cite?

Arcanum is the only "renaissance" game that ever comes close to the feelings of drawing your own conclusions in order to progress. Fallout and Baldur's Gate contributed a lot of new things which were great but COMPLETELY missed the point of investigation and mystery.

Bullshit. In addition to Arcanum, Fallout and Baldur's Gate have lots of investigation and mystery (Glow and Durlag's Tower, for starters). The reason why you don't think they do is because you read a walkthrough on your first playthrough, thereby ruining the experience for yourself.
 

Ysaye

Arbiter
Joined
May 27, 2018
Messages
771
Location
Australia
the early 90s are filled with games that are in some ways better than their late 90s and early 2000 counterparts.

Fallout and Planescape: Torment do that best, and they are Renaissance-era RPGs. But investigating mysteries is not the most important part of RPGs: combat is. And Renaissance-era RPGs have much better combat than "Golden Age" ones. I cite Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and ToEE for starters. What can you cite?

Arcanum is the only "renaissance" game that ever comes close to the feelings of drawing your own conclusions in order to progress. Fallout and Baldur's Gate contributed a lot of new things which were great but COMPLETELY missed the point of investigation and mystery.

Bullshit. In addition to Arcanum, Fallout and Baldur's Gate have lots of investigation and mystery (Glow and Durlag's Tower, for starters). The reason why you don't think they do is because you read a walkthrough on your first playthrough, thereby ruining the experience for yourself.

For mine, Realms of Arkania has better combat than ToEE (Mind you anything that doesn't have a bloody ring menu is probably going to be better!). FWIW Lands of Lore has more fun combat than most of the Renaissance era games - good combat does not need to be overly complex.

I agree that Arcanum and Baldur's Gate are not completely devoid of exploration but you just don't get the same wonderous feeling of Ultima 6/7 or even a game like Magic Candle - I suppose that is the reason indies appeal to these games with things like Skald and Code of Savage. Ultima Underworld 2 and even some of the things in Lands of Lore (Draracles Cave) is more tense than any dungeon in your Renaissance period.

I even miss the feeling of a game like Menzoberranzan, even though most people these days will point out it is not as good as Ravenloft 1 or 2. But these would all be fun to revisit.

I suppose at the end of the day we all know what we like and like what we know? - if we grew up with the language of the 80s and 90s then we will interpret the things as being more comfortable, compare to others who grew up with something else, for which this period will feel odd and unintuitive.
 

Doktor Best

Arcane
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,849
Wouldnt be the Bards Tale Remasters be a good fit for him?

Its a classic series with new and improved UI, including automap.
 

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
U7, U6, Dark Sun, UUW, Wiz7, bloodstone, EoB, RoA, all of them have mechanics which you'll seldom find, even in the "renaissance era".

Like what?
Off the top of my head:
- Emergent non-scripted (non-combat) interactions and quest solutions (Ultimas, DM);
- Deep simulated systems (U6-7, RoA, MC/Bloodstone - in different ways);
- Seamless open worlds (U6-7, Wiz7);
- NPC schedules (U7) and autonomous/competing NPC actors (Wiz7);
- Full party creation with detailed character systems (Wiz7, RoA);
- Keyword-based dialogs and clue hunting (U6, Wiz7, MC/Bloodstone);
- Puzzles (most of them).

it feels like you are actually investigating a huge mystery in an unforgiving world.

Fallout and Planescape: Torment do that best, and they are Renaissance-era RPGs. But investigating mysteries is not the most important part of RPGs: combat is.
The fundamental difference is how the main narrative progresses. In early 90s games you are given a high-level mystery or a problem (e.g. how to reseal the demon in Magic Candle or where do the gargoyles come from in U6) and then you freely explore the gameworld following multiple threads of clues until it finally comes together in the finale. If there is side content (and those games tend to heavily prioritize the nonlinearity of main plot over side content), it's something you stumble upon while exploring, not because some NPC told you to. Late 90s games, on the other hand, have invented the quest-based structure, where you're told explicitly what to do, and often, where to go. Their progression is usually a lot more linear - from main quest to main quest, from one quest hub to another - even if the gameworld remain open, while non-linearity comes from side quests - which are, surprise, also quests.
 

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
One issue I do have with skipping up to Ultima 7 is that I hear it's universally agreed to be the best in the series. Can't help shake the feeling that would sour my experience with the earlier games if I played the best one first.
There are some things that U6 and U5 do better (turn-based combat being one of them), so don't worry about that.
 

Thunar

Educated
Joined
Dec 29, 2019
Messages
98
Give me one example of a "Golden Age" RPG that is superior to Fallout, Jagged Alliance 2 and Deus Ex.
Why does everything need to be superior? I've never suggested that. I said that early 90s games have gameplay elements which do not exist in the late 90s and 2000s, see V_K's post for some examples.
I also said that the Renaissance era introduced many new things, I'm not saying that they are unimportant, just that they are missing important parts of their legacy. A trend that has continued to this day.
I'll also caution that I'm not very interested in defending "my games" vs "your games". I don't think that tying one's identity to a couple of trinkets and defending them at all costs is very fruitful.
I'm only interested in finding out the good and bad ideas within games and how they come in concert to create experiences which stand out on their own, regardless of the sum of their parts.

Taking the example of U7 and Serpent Isle since they've been mentioned:
- NPCs have pages of dialogue and a seeming life of their own
- Each town is detailed and has its own problems, some of which don't have solutions.
- There is the presence of a mysterious looming threat that can not be approached with violence
- There are also many other "hurdles" that will divert the Avatar's attention, which could be called "side quests", but that term is not really appropriate, as they aren't really structured like that; even though a few of them are optional.
- There are connections all throughout the optional activities, the intermediary objectives and the main objective

All of these elements interact with each other. The NPCs mention details and locations, these details can then be discussed with other specific NPCs and the means to reach these locations can be explored, this is true in every rpg.
However, while doing so, the player stumbles on other clues, some of which are completely unrelated, others which lead to optional content and some that are just flavor text.
Finding out the difference between each through trial, error and logic results in most of the experience of the game. In between those events, there's a (not so good) combat and you might stumble on a well designed dungeon, which in turn will have even more clues which leads to even more note taking and exploration.

This creates an investigative feedback loop similar to adventure games but that is not simply based around solving puzzles but on telling apart fact from fiction, leads from diversions. All of this on the scale of interaction and progression that is proper to an RPG. This is heightened by the lack of an in game journal, forcing you to keep track of every story bit and NPC development. It's a game that captures a lot of the design principles of that era, and seemingly to prove that it excels at them; includes a combat system that is completely anecdotal, with an extension that maxes out the player's stats and doubles them some more to show out the pointlessness of resolving the world's trouble with murder and how it offers challenges that can be much more complex.
Yet, even though it does that, it still manages to recreate the tension and mystery of a dungeon within its stat maxing extension and throughout the rest of the adventure...

Now add to this that there's a coherence to the world of Britannia that's been honed for more than a decade with so many connections between flavor, optional, side and main content that it becomes extremely difficult to tell them apart and you have an immersive experience unlike any other.
While being under the thrall of the game, EVERYTHING could be important. Every single word could be a vital clue to progress, every single crate could hide a vital note, a key, an item, anything. The player's sense of attention is heightened throughout because of this feeling of a lived in world, where yeah, you could find a goblet of Everlasting Nourishment on the decadent dinner table of a nobleman's house, because he'd have that kind of money.

This feeling of a massive world is not something that you can replicate by following the fallout and BG formula of "talk to this guy, get the quest, get a clue (if there is), do the thing and if you're lucky, there will be a few ways of doing it", rinse, repeat and onto the next quest hub. Though it requires less investment on the part of the player, it also limits the sentiment of possibilities that the game offers to you, even if in F1, there's many more options and quests.

Doing what U7 did requires trusting the player's attention and wits, providing him with just enough for him to have a vague sense of direction, but not enough that he can know what comes next. There is no sense of a "formula" in games that take this design philosophy to heart. Everything is quite unique, seldom reused and it is precisely that you can not know what's around the corner that makes exploration and investigation feel worthwhile, rewarding and limitless, even if on paper, there's less C&C, less side quests, less NPCs...

The Less is more effect that U7, Wiz7, bloodstone, RoA and all those games have is the very thing that makes PnP rpgs great. Technically, there's much less in a PnP campaign than in a game like BG, fallout or planescape. I don't think there are many DMs that can capture the writing of Avellone or the flow and speed of combat that BG has, even if they simplified things.
And yet, mapping out a dungeon at the sound of your DM's voice, not knowing what lies around the corner; or talking with an exuberant NPC, not knowing if he might become an important character as your group takes a liking to him goes miles beyond any form of media despite the "limitations" of writing and flow/speed of events. It's the illusion of infinite possibilities that we all know isn't true, but that we still consent to, because of the thrill that comes with it. Your DM doesn't have an infinite amount of prep time, nor are his improv skills enough to completely change the setting of a campaign at a whim, and yet... He just might, just this once...
It's the same with the investigative thirst that these games can offer to anyone who is motivated enough to keep going with them, despite the difficulty or clumsiness of their UI and mechanics.

They aren't superior, they're unique, different and incredibly refreshing, their ignorance of many of the codes RPGs hold today led to their audacious blends of genres and designs, stuff like Albion doesn't exist in the Renaissance era. Yet, the values and codes to which they held dear are still unmatched today, it's a tough call to find the dungeon design that MM5 and W7 had. Though it is true that their combat may have been a bit simpler than JA2 and F1, the era still put out games like XCOM and Dark Sun, which to me are a much fairer comparison, like father and son.
Ignoring these games altogether would perpetuate the trends of simplifications that we've seen since the Renaissance era.
In short, these games are the source of Incline, if you want to understand what makes good games, broaden your tastes and hopefully re-inspire a generation of developers to tend towards a new renaissance, this is where it's at.

Bullshit. In addition to Arcanum, Fallout and Baldur's Gate have lots of investigation and mystery (Glow and Durlag's Tower, for starters). The reason why you don't think they do is because you read a walkthrough on your first playthrough, thereby ruining the experience for yourself.

I have no idea why you'd think that anyone would ever need a walk-through for fallout and baldur's gate, literally two of the most accessible and simplest games to get into...
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,761
I have no idea why you'd think that anyone would ever need a walk-through for fallout and baldur's gate, literally two of the most accessible and simplest games to get into...

While this may have been true in 1997/8, this is definitely not true in 2020. Anything short of satellite GPS coordinates for every relevant person place and mcguffin is “hardcore”. Reading and intuiting, or applying non obvious logic, is “niche”. Fail states are victim-shaming and an over saturated color palette marks the truest of true cRPG games. :D
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,865
My problem getting into them stems mostly from lack of direction. I don't want my hand held by any means but it's frustrating to waste time getting lost because a game won't give you so much as a line of text saying what vague direction you should go or what it is you're looking to do. My first attempt at getting into these games was Ultima IV, I later tried out M&M4 [...]

You should try M&M III : Isles of terra instead of M&M 4, usually, people either prefer Isles of Terra or Darkside (M&M V).
As for wandering around, in M&M 3, the game gives you some general direction and when you're stuck, you could refer to a guide (RPGclassics)

Like this one

terra.jpg


It was nice to wander and try to find everything on your own back when time wasn't an issue but at some point, you don't want to waste it and ogling at a good guide from time to time helps you do just that.

I was looking at M&M X and thinking.. "Does this have a steam mod construction set? I need to look into this. Its essentially what I wanted with Bard's Tale but Fargo refuses to make one. I mean wtf? And where's our updated Dragon War's Remake? Along with a few other games in the genre FOD, EFH, etc.
 
Unwanted

Sweeper

Unwanted
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Messages
2,394
FUCKING BOOMERS GET OFF MY BOARD
98 IS AS FAR BACK AS I'M WILLING TO GO
That said I'm gonna try out Dark Sun and Darklands cause they look interesting.
And maybe Betrayal at Krondor.
And that shit better be worth the hassle or I'm gonna be mad at you Codex.
 
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Darth Canoli

Arcane
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Jun 8, 2018
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Perched on a tree
I was looking at M&M X and thinking.. "Does this have a steam mod construction set? I need to look into this. Its essentially what I wanted with Bard's Tale but Fargo refuses to make one. I mean wtf? And where's our updated Dragon War's Remake? Along with a few other games in the genre FOD, EFH, etc.

I lost track but i think the mod kit for M&M X was never released because unity wanted some money for it or something, just look at the few available mods.

On the other hand, M&M 6-8 and wizardry 8 are moddable and there is some tools developed by modders, even a lot of new assets from existing mods if you get the authorization to use them.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
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Messages
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Kelethin
FUCKING BOOMERS GET OFF MY BOARD
98 IS AS FAR BACK AS I'M WILLING TO GO
That said I'm gonna try out Dark Sun and Darklands cause they look interesting.
And maybe Betrayal at Krondor.
And that shit better be worth the hassle or I'm gonna be mad at you Codex.
I don't like going back too far either but Krondor is great. The problem is it looks so damn old now and with my resolution it is so damn ugly. But if I spend some time to rescale it, it looks ok.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,865

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
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Eastern block
FUCKING BOOMERS GET OFF MY BOARD
98 IS AS FAR BACK AS I'M WILLING TO GO

Yeah I was like that too, but in recent years I tried goldbox stuff like Wizardry 6, Wasteland, Dark Sun, etc. and thought they were superb and very playable.
 
Last edited:

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,761
Lands of Lore and Betrayal at Krondor are also very playable. LoL is like a mid 90s popamole blobbed, so if you’re balls deep in the genre it’s not worth it. I think it was my second, after LoG 1.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
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Messages
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Kelethin
The problem is it looks so damn old now and with my resolution it is so damn ugly
Lets face it, they're all ugly.
But that gives them character.
I don't really think it is ugly, it is just that my resolution is 2560x1080 and the game's resolution is about 5x7. So it blows up the blurry pixels and it just becomes a big mush of green and the objects are too big and pixelly to even see what they are. It can be mostly fixed by playing it in a box and it then it looks much better, but then it is kinda hard to see stuff. I love the game though, it was way ahead of its time. You might also wanna try a game called Summoner, the PC version.
 

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