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World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

thesheeep

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they are also asexual.
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim this as a general rule.
At least for VtM / WoD.

Sure, there are mythologies around in which vampires have no sex drive.
But I have yet to see a single product for VtM / WoD, including rule books, in which vampires are not very much sexually active (and actually sexually diverse, always have been in VtM). Of course, some aren't interested in sexuality. Some are certainly asexual, but by far not all of them.
Vampires are just humans with superpowers, really, they don't change their entire being and personality once embraced - except of course for personal developments over time (and with much more time available than a normal human).

Someone who enjoyed sex while alive won't suddenly have zero interest in it after the embrace - even though they might indeed have trouble getting hard or wet (and that's where skills/feats come into play in some systems or with some DMs).
I could see vampires gradually turning more and more asexual over time, as a result of either their lack of functioning body parts and/or a "been there, done that" lack of interest.
 

Lambach

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But I have yet to see a single product for VtM / WoD, including rule books, in which vampires are not very much sexually active (and actually sexually diverse, always have been in VtM). Of course, some aren't interested in sexuality. Some are certainly asexual, but by far not all of them.

When's the last time you've read a VtM Rulebook? It's explicitly stated Kindred aren't interested in bumping uglies and those who appear to be interested, only do it in order to feed. Hell, to even be capable of the act itself, they have to expend Vitae, 8 - Humanity Score in Blood Points, which for a lot of Vampires can be a cost of 2-3 Blood Points, which is pretty hefty and it's not something they're likely to do just so they can feel a pale imitation of the real thing. They are corpses for cryin' out loud, when's the last time you saw a corpse with a sexual drive?

Hell, forget the source material, just tune back into the first Bloodlines where several characters point out that Vampires don't fuck and what a complete weirdo and a freak Jeanette is for doing so.
 

neurosys

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Vampires are just humans with superpowers

I think this is one common point of disagreement and confusion (and general problem with later revisions) about VtM due to pre-conceptions of vampires in popular culture. It's important to first note that there's not one single type of vampire stereotype in literature, all can be pretty different than each other (although VtM is largely inspired by Ann Rice's version, it's not the same). The one presented in VtM (at least in the earlier game books) are only humans as far as they think or pretend to be. The differences start with fundamental needs. They don't want to eat food, nor want to reproduce by having sex, but by feeding, nor they want the warmth of fire anymore. The company of other humans is not for the social needs humans have. They are perhaps more similar to a predator animal in terms of their base instincts. Of course there is the on-average 30-40 years of human way of living, which will be hard to maintain for the next many more nights to follow, never desiring the same things as they did before. Thinking they are just humans with super powers is a misleading over simplification, and deprives the game from the psychological transformation element it has (and all the game/roll mechanics around it), i.e. the transformation from being a human to a accursed beast (which is not an animal, but something akin to it).

Losing their Humanity is central to the whole idea of Vampires in the world of WoD. What they try to maintain as being a human is a pretense.
 

thesheeep

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It's explicitly stated Kindred aren't interested in bumping uglies and those who appear to be interested, only do it in order to feed. Hell, to even be capable of the act itself, they have to expend Vitae, 8 - Humanity Score in Blood Points, which for a lot of Vampires can be a cost of 2-3 Blood Points, which is pretty hefty and it's not something they're likely to do just so they can feel a pale imitation of the real thing. They are corpses for cryin' out loud, when's the last time you saw a corpse with a sexual drive?
I'm not interested in bumping uglies, either, and I'm not a corpse. I think. So that's not much of an argument.
Anyway, the corpses argument is moot to begin with, as we are talking about magic here. Corpses shouldn't walk around, cast spells and have a desire to suck blood, either. But having a sex drive, sure, that's a stretch :lol:
The rest is just rules, which is irrelevant for the point at hand, which is if they are asexual or not, if they have an interest in it or not.

There's a big difference between between having no sex because you really have no interest in it and having no sex because you simply can't.
The first one is asexuality, the second is just someone who can't have sex. Sexuality is about what you are into, what you enjoy, not what your body can or cannot do.

As I said, I think it makes sense that most vampires don't really have sex because of the cost involved (if you go by the standard rules).
In addition to having The Kiss, which is just better to them.
But that doesn't mean they wouldn't like to have or enjoy sex, and they are therefore not asexual.
 

Ol' Willy

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when's the last time you saw a corpse with a sexual drive
img470_large.jpg
 

Lambach

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Anyway, the corpses argument is moot to begin with, as we are talking about magic here. Corpses shouldn't walk around, cast spells and have a desire to suck blood, either. But having a sex drive, sure, that's a stretch :lol:

Ah, the "it's magic so it doesn't have to have internal consistency" argument, truly an evergreen classic.

It's a stretch because it's explicitly stated multiple times that they don't do it because they're completely uninterested in it and they have no sex drive. According to the rules, yes they're corpses who can shoot fire out of their hands, and they're also corpses with no sex drive. Them's the established rules. You can argue they don't make sense all you want, but such are the rules of WoD.

The rest is just rules, which is irrelevant for the point at hand, which is if they are asexual or not, if they have an interest in it or not.

There's a big difference between between having no sex because you really have no interest in it and having no sex because you simply can't.
The first one is asexuality, the second is just someone who can't have sex. Sexuality is about what you are into, what you enjoy, not what your body can or cannot do.

As I said, I think it makes sense that most vampires don't really have sex because of the cost involved (if you go by the standard rules).
In addition to having The Kiss, which is just better to them.
But that doesn't mean they wouldn't like to have or enjoy sex, and they are therefore not asexual.

Man, my back hurts just from watching you twist yourself into a pretzel to try and explain your nonsensical arguments here.
 

thesheeep

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It's a stretch because it's explicitly stated multiple times that they don't do it because they're completely uninterested in it and they have no sex drive.
That's simply not the case.
What it does state is that sex is not as intense as The Kiss, but still very much enjoyable.
They don't need it for reproduction, true, but since when do you need reproduction to enjoy sex?

From the V20 edition (page 9, if you don't believe me):
Vampires have sex. True. It’s a great way to feed, but carnal pleasures don’t mean as much to the Kindred. Feeding, which vampires call “the Kiss,” is an incredibly intoxicating and erotic experience for Cainites and their victims. Sex is great, but nothing truly replaces the ecstasy of feeding for a vampire.
"Sex is great" - hardly sounds asexual to me.

Man, my back hurts just from watching you twist yourself into a pretzel to try and explain your nonsensical arguments here.
I'm just trying to explain the nature of asexuality to you and why vampires in VtM are not asexual, they just often don't have sex.
Which you don't seem to get, so... eh, whatever, this isn't nearly important enough to try and explain to you even further.
 

Sykar

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Iirc, politics and faction drama in Bloodlines 1 were about power, the masquerade, and how to govern vampire society, not what kind of fetishes are acceptable.
To be honest, *political* side of Bloodlines is kinda goofy.

Camarilla: we are the guardians of order! Thus, clown who want to diablerize the antediluvian is promoted to Prince of entire LA.
Anarchs: fuck Camarilla! We will fight for our freedom! Thus, those guys keep sitting at their shitty bar and whining.
Sabbat: we want to stop the tyranny of Elder ones! Thus, they enlist the most despicable thugs and employ Tzimisce with their unsound methods.
Chinks: we want to take hold in LA. Thus, they buy in all the hoax with the sarcophagus.

The game is basically about Jack swinging all the factions around his rod all laughing while at it.

But most importantly:
64-iXfB3JP7iqveE.jpg
 

Lambach

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Terribly sorry that a non-imaginary and current edition of the ruleset you claim says something, actually says something else.
You are the one who brought the rulesets into this, now you'll have to deal with being wrong.

Well, if we're gonna play the "gotcha!" game:

But I have yet to see a single product for VtM / WoD, including rule books, in which vampires are not very much sexually active

Older versions were quite explicit about this, whereas V20 is literally a retcon of a retcon, so.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Sykar

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But I have yet to see a single product for VtM / WoD, including rule books, in which vampires are not very much sexually active (and actually sexually diverse, always have been in VtM). Of course, some aren't interested in sexuality. Some are certainly asexual, but by far not all of them.

When's the last time you've read a VtM Rulebook? It's explicitly stated Kindred aren't interested in bumping uglies and those who appear to be interested, only do it in order to feed. Hell, to even be capable of the act itself, they have to expend Vitae, 8 - Humanity Score in Blood Points, which for a lot of Vampires can be a cost of 2-3 Blood Points, which is pretty hefty and it's not something they're likely to do just so they can feel a pale imitation of the real thing. They are corpses for cryin' out loud, when's the last time you saw a corpse with a sexual drive?

Hell, forget the source material, just tune back into the first Bloodlines where several characters point out that Vampires don't fuck and what a complete weirdo and a freak Jeanette is for doing so.

Well I guess that can make the female MC a freak too:
41-3-08.jpg

:happytrollboy:
 

Harthwain

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But I have yet to see a single product for VtM / WoD, including rule books, in which vampires are not very much sexually active

Older versions were quite explicit about this, whereas V20 is literally a retcon of a retcon, so.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
For the record: I was talking about 1st Edition and got pretty much the same impression as Lambach from reading that rulebook, which explains the difference in perspective when compared to 2nd Edition.
 

Lambach

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For the record: I was talking about 1st Edition and got pretty much the same impression as Lambach from reading that rulebook, which explains the difference in perspective when compared to 2nd Edition.

It's not even the 2nd Edition, tho, that one is very similar to the 1st and only some rules were cleaned up and improved (and Sabbat was made into more of a more-or-less proper Sect rather than just generic bad guys you're supposed to shoot and pay no heed to). The "old" WoD ended with the Gehenna books. Then they retconed the whole thing and made Requiem. Then it turns out Requiem sucked balls and wasn't selling, so they retconed the previous retcon and came up with V20.

Then they decided that wasn't garbage enough, so they decided to shoot the setting in the head and piss on its corpse via V5.
 

Harthwain

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It's not even the 2nd Edition, tho, that one is very similar to the 1st and only some rules were cleaned up and improved (and Sabbat was made into more of a more-or-less proper Sect rather than just generic bad guys you're supposed to shoot and pay no heed to). The "old" WoD ended with the Gehenna books. Then they retconed the whole thing and made Requiem. Then it turns out Requiem sucked balls and wasn't selling, so they retconed the previous retcon and came up with V20.

Then they decided that wasn't garbage enough, so they decided to shoot the setting in the head and piss on its corpse via V5.
I see. Thank you for informing me. I thought "V20" was a shorthand for "Version 2.0" (I am not really up to date on PnP stuff these days).
 

Latro

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What an argument.
Well, The Kiss quite clearly replaces the compulsive function of sex that humans have - in fact, it's much more stronger since it is both sex + feeding at the same time. "Sex is great" isn't that much of a big deal to vampires who have a hunger that is enormously greater and quite necessary for their survival. It's quite clearly there to justify the creepy ERP subset of VTM players.
 

thesheeep

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What an argument.
Well, The Kiss quite clearly replaces the compulsive function of sex that humans have - in fact, it's much more stronger since it is both sex + feeding at the same time. "Sex is great" isn't that much of a big deal to vampires who have a hunger that is enormously greater and quite necessary for their survival. It's quite clearly there to justify the creepy ERP subset of VTM players.
It isn't relevant why it was put there.
That they can enjoy something else even more (which is also more important to them biologically) is equally besides the point.
It is clearly said that vampires can have and enjoy sex and are NOT automatically assumed asexual beings, which was the point. If it is compulsive or not depends on the specific character's personality like any other kind of compulsive behavior.

You can play a character that has zero interest in any sexuality, and you can play one that is horny af, doesn't matter, the rules allow either.
I never made the point that vampires have to be raunchy (though that would make a hilarious session no doubt) :lol:
 

Harthwain

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It isn't relevant why it was put there.
That they can enjoy something else even more (which is also more important to them biologically) is equally besides the point.
It is clearly said that vampires can have and enjoy sex and are NOT automatically assumed asexual beings, which was the point. If it is compulsive or not depends on the specific character's personality like any other kind of compulsive behavior.
It does switch the entire perspective on what a vampire is though. Vampires being "just humans with superpowers", like you put it, is not interesting premise at all.
 

thesheeep

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It isn't relevant why it was put there.
That they can enjoy something else even more (which is also more important to them biologically) is equally besides the point.
It is clearly said that vampires can have and enjoy sex and are NOT automatically assumed asexual beings, which was the point. If it is compulsive or not depends on the specific character's personality like any other kind of compulsive behavior.
It does switch the entire perspective on what a vampire is though. Vampires being "just humans with superpowers", like you put it, is not interesting premise at all.
But they are.
It's just that these superpowers have serious side effects - which makes for more interesting superhuman type characters anyway.

There's no difference between a vampire and, for example, an imaginary character with almost the exact same powers and flaws, just that it isn't about blood but something else that equally requires humans.
Vampires being "just humans" is exactly what makes it interesting, they are humans that have gained powers, and these powers have side effects posing quite a challenge to "normal" life, morality, etc.
 

Latro

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It isn't relevant why it was put there.
Yes it is. Any sexual vampire is using it as a put-on to deceive humans or is seriously messed up in the head even for kindred (jeannette).
which makes for more interesting superhuman type characters anyway.
so vampires have regressed into superheroes then? I hate capeshit.
 

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