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Crispy™ Controversial opinions about RPGs that you know deep down are true.

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The F1 vs F2 debates are p silly. These are very similar games on the general level. It's just that there is much more of everything in F2, more good stuff, but also more stupid shit. And the ending part is obviously a rushed mess, yeah.

RPGs before Fallout are not worth playing.

Isometric perspective is inherently less immersive.
Spot the flaw in this logic.

You might wanna revisit those logic classes my friend.
 

Sigourn

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New Vegas is not a good game, it just has good writing.
 

Cryomancer

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New Vegas is not a good game, it just has good writing.

Not a good game, why??

Being a sniper with anti materiel rifles + explosive rounds or a cowboy with lever action .45-70 rifles, shotguns and revolvers is so amazing. Fallout 4 in other hands was made only for spray and pray weapons. and has dialog wheels, dumbed down mechanics and other BS. I finished FNV 4 times on hardcore and loved each second playing it, except dead money DLC. Which is by far the worst DLC ever.
 

Butter

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New Vegas is not a good game, it just has good writing.

Not a good game, why??

Being a sniper with anti materiel rifles + explosive rounds or a cowboy with lever action .45-70 rifles, shotguns and revolvers is so amazing. Fallout 4 in other hands was made only for spray and pray weapons. and has dialog wheels, dumbed down mechanics and other BS. I finished FNV 4 times on hardcore and loved each second playing it, except dead money DLC. Which is by far the worst DLC ever.
Take his word for it. Sigourn has played the game for 500 hours, so he knows how bad it is.
 

Sigourn

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Not a good game, why??

Being a sniper with anti materiel rifles + explosive rounds or a cowboy with lever action .45-70 rifles, shotguns and revolvers is so amazing. Fallout 4 in other hands was made only for spray and pray weapons. and has dialog wheels, dumbed down mechanics and other BS. I finished FNV 4 times on hardcore and loved each second playing it, except dead money DLC. Which is by far the worst DLC ever.

There are many reasons why I think it's not good, in order of most important to least important.
  1. There's a lot of emptiness to the open world. Not Fallout 1/2 levels of emptiness, where you just go from point of interest to point of interest fairly quickly, but emptiness the game expects you to plow through in hopes of finding something interesting.
  2. There's hardly anything interesting to find in the world. Every location of importance is a location you will eventually get through if you simply follow quests.
  3. The game is just too easy. Even with Hardcore mode.
  4. Encounters are extremely predictable because you can spot them from a mile away and they are always the same. Exceptions are random encounters, which in this game amount to Legion or NCR squads coming to kill you (which, again, consist of the same three or four NPCs).
  5. The shooting doesn't feel satisfying, which is a big problem since this is designed as a first person shooter (this is because the 3rd person combat is notoriously wonky).
  6. The melee doesn't feel satisfying, which is a big problem since you can also choose to play it melee.
  7. The graphics look like garbage. Somehow looks worse than a 1997 game, and I'm not kidding. New Vegas is an offense to the eye.
  8. The voice acting is uninspired and only the most important characters in the game shine through. Victor was awesome as well.
New Vegas introduced lots of mechanics that would have felt right at home in Fallout and Fallout 2, but the problem is that it's just a bad game overall, in my opinion.
I actually really enjoyed Dead Money because it drastically changes the gameplay, encouraging stealth and survival, where survival actually matters instead of just being a rather inconvenient alternative to using Stimpaks.
 

moon knight

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Yep, I include quests and C&C as part of the writing (after all a quest is basically a story).

I consider it gameplay. A mission structured in a way that accounts for most of the possible character builds the player has created, is fundamental in an RPG.
 

Cryomancer

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Not a good game, why??

Being a sniper with anti materiel rifles + explosive rounds or a cowboy with lever action .45-70 rifles, shotguns and revolvers is so amazing. Fallout 4 in other hands was made only for spray and pray weapons. and has dialog wheels, dumbed down mechanics and other BS. I finished FNV 4 times on hardcore and loved each second playing it, except dead money DLC. Which is by far the worst DLC ever.

There are many reasons why I think it's not good, in order of most important to least important.
  1. There's a lot of emptiness to the open world. Not Fallout 1/2 levels of emptiness, where you just go from point of interest to point of interest fairly quickly, but emptiness the game expects you to plow through in hopes of finding something interesting.
  2. There's hardly anything interesting to find in the world. Every location of importance is a location you will eventually get through if you simply follow quests.
  3. The game is just too easy. Even with Hardcore mode.
  4. Encounters are extremely predictable because you can spot them from a mile away and they are always the same. Exceptions are random encounters, which in this game amount to Legion or NCR squads coming to kill you (which, again, consist of the same three or four NPCs).
  5. The shooting doesn't feel satisfying, which is a big problem since this is designed as a first person shooter (this is because the 3rd person combat is notoriously wonky).
  6. The melee doesn't feel satisfying, which is a big problem since you can also choose to play it melee.
  7. The graphics look like garbage. Somehow looks worse than a 1997 game, and I'm not kidding. New Vegas is an offense to the eye.
  8. The voice acting is uninspired and only the most important characters in the game shine through. Victor was awesome as well.
New Vegas introduced lots of mechanics that would have felt right at home in Fallout and Fallout 2, but the problem is that it's just a bad game overall, in my opinion.
I actually really enjoyed Dead Money because it drastically changes the gameplay, encouraging stealth and survival, where survival actually matters instead of just being a rather inconvenient alternative to using Stimpaks.

1 - It is a **** desert. What do you expect?
2 - Same as one.
3 - I agree.
4 - Not a problem. Scouting and seeing ahead should be possible.
5 - Doesn't feel satisfying? I loved shooting on new vegas. Large caliber firearms mutilating enemies is extremely satisfying.
6 - Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. If you wanna use a Katana vs a guy with anti materiel rifle and explosive .50 BMG ammo in a open field, you will gonna die. What is the solution? Having people sustaining 666 shots of .50 BMG in the head? Limiting the range to 13m? Sorry but no. It would destroy the gunplay of the game. We already have 6548665168746517464654896 games where fast swinging blades are the best weapon against anything, from a guy in plate armor to to steam elementals and iron golems. We don't need another fast swinging blade festival.
7 - The graphics are great for its time. The weapon reloading animations too.

The unique problem is filters which can be turned off.

iu


Now why FNV is great

  • Many ammo types to choose from. 12 gauge can be on slugs, buckshot, slugs, dragon breath(...)
  • Weapons can jam
  • Armor absorbs by a falt amount which means that there are enemies which your poor quality starting armor can't pierce his armor and end game weapon can wreck and ignore armor.
  • Quest design is amazing
  • A lot of mods
  • Hardcore mode where ammo weights, you need to drink water and eat food and can't just sleep to heal.
  • A lot of choices and consequences, not exactly good vs bad. Mr House VS NCR is more like private control over democratic control
  • You can beat the final boss using dialog only
  • You see a lot of improvement with guns 20 to guns 100, with far less spread and far less scopped sway.
  • (...)
New Vegas isn't perfect. It could be far better if it had for eg, armored vehicles and you could use planes or even a armored APC with cannons to fight deathclaws for eg. That would be cool as ****.
 
Last edited:

DalekFlay

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Another opinion: Crafting in RPGs needs to be toned down. Itemization in a lot of RPG games suffer due to crafting features that need not exist. Every time I hear a new RPG lets you craft your own gear, I die a little inside.

Crafting isn't ALWAYS a bad thing, if you're playing a game that's very simulation oriented like Elderscrolls, but it had no place in games like Pillars of Eternity, and it's presence made the game worse.

I ignore crafting in pretty much every RPG that has it and have rarely felt like it made the game worse to do so. So at least it's optional for the most part I guess? I'm playing Divinity OS right now for example and have never crafted a single thing, but I'm over halfway through and have never had a problem killing everything.
 

Sigourn

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1 - It is a **** desert. What do you expect?
2 - Same as one.
3 - I agree.
4 - Not a problem. Scouting and seeing ahead should be possible.
5 - Doesn't feel satisfying? I loved shooting on new vegas. Large caliber firearms mutilating enemies is extremely satisfying.
6 - Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. If you wanna use a Katana vs a guy with anti materiel rifle and explosive .50 BMG ammo in a open field, you will gonna die. What is the solution? Having people sustaining 666 shots of .50 BMG in the head? Limiting the range to 13m? Sorry but no. It would destroy the gunplay of the game. We already have 6548665168746517464654896 games where fast swinging blades are the best weapon against anything, from a guy in plate armor to to steam elementals and iron golems. We don't need another fast swinging blade festival.
7 - The graphics are great for its time. The weapon reloading animations too.
  1. For the game not to waste my time, just like Fallout and Fallout 2.
  2. Same as above. Why bother making me going through an empty desert if I'll find nothing of note? Oh, that's right: Obsidian had to make do with the basic gameplay style they inherited from Fallout 3. And they thought an empty desert that is completely skippable in the first two games would translate well to a seamless open world, but it simply doesn't.
  3. -
  4. The problem is you are always the person doing the ambushes. When the game is already easy to begin with, being able to easily scout everything and never get caught by surprise (with the exceptions I mentioned) make the game very boring.
  5. I disagree, but it's pretty common knowledge that the shooting in Fallout 3 was dogshit and adding iron sights in New Vegas won't really fix that.
  6. No idea why did you decide to bring the effectiveness of melee combat in a discussion about how enjoyable melee combat is. Which, again, is a problem carried over from Fallout 3: it's just not enjoyable, weapons don't feel like they have weight, enemies barely react to your attacks, it's just bad.
  7. This is the first time I've ever heard people say New Vegas looks great, let alone for its time (taking into account it was released in 2010 looking no different than Fallout 3, which even in 2008 looked terrible). The reloading animations are cool though, that I agree with.
Regarding your positive things about FNV, my personal opinion is that they don't come close to outweighing the negatives. The reason is simple: for every good thing about the combat, the big three negatives I mentioned early (easy and unsatisfying gunplay and melee combat) render whatever improvements it added onto the table fairly moot.

Mods can fix some of these issues (but not totally), but then again I'm judging the vanilla game.
 

Ol' Willy

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  • Many ammo types to choose from. 12 gauge can be on slugs, buckshot, slugs, dragon breath(...)
  • Weapons can jam
  • Armor absorbs by a falt amount which means that there are enemies which your poor quality starting armor can't pierce his armor and end game weapon can wreck and ignore armor.
  • Quest design is amazing
  • A lot of mods
  • Hardcore mode where ammo weights, you need to drink water and eat food and can't just sleep to heal.
  • A lot of choices and consequences, not exactly good vs bad. Mr House VS NCR is more like private control over democratic control
  • You can beat the final boss using dialog only
  • You see a lot of improvement with guns 20 to guns 100, with far less spread and far less scopped sway.
- F1/F2 have different ammo types too, albeit less
- Identical to critical failures in F1/F2
- Damage Threshold stat, taken directly from F1/F2
- On par with F1/F2 at best
- -
- Ammo has weight in F1/F2; citing eating and sleeping as a positive side is questionable
- On par with F1/F2 at best
- Possible in F1
- in F1/F2 using guns at 20 is pain, using gain at 100 is better, overmaxing guns skill is much better
 

Sigourn

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- F1/F2 have different ammo types too, albeit less
- Identical to critical failures in F1/F2
- Damage Threshold stat, taken directly from F1/F2
- On par with F1/F2 at best
- -
- Ammo has weight in F1/F2; citing eating and sleeping as a positive side is questionable
- On par with F1/F2 at best
- Possible in F1
- in F1/F2 using guns at 20 is pain, using gain at 100 is better, overmaxing guns skill is much better

It's also worth mentioning that
  1. In New Vegas, there is a lot of ammo variety but little reason to use it.
  2. Damage threshold is absolutely fucked and doesn't work anywhere near as it does in Fallout and Fallout 2.
I would say New Vegas does have interesting quests and a very cool faction system, but most of the mechanics New Vegas brought into the table don't make much of a difference, were already present in Fallout/Fallout 2, and/or simply suck (eating and sleeping became a chore as opposed to a challenge).
 

DalekFlay

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For the game not to waste my time, just like Fallout and Fallout 2.
Same as above. Why bother making me going through an empty desert if I'll find nothing of note? Oh, that's right: Obsidian had to make do with the basic gameplay style they inherited from Fallout 3. And they thought an empty desert that is completely skippable in the first two games would translate well to a seamless open world, but it simply doesn't.

Sounds like you're just not into the open world exploration concept, because New Vegas does it better than most. You either enjoy wandering around the next dune to see what's beyond it or you don't.
 

Sigourn

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Sounds like you're just not into the open world exploration concept, because New Vegas does it better than most. You either enjoy wandering around the next dune to see what's beyond it or you don't.

Heavy disagree there. I'm fine with open world exploration when it is done well, but New Vegas simply doesn't do it well. As I've said, there's hardly any reason to explore since you will come across almost all important locations just by doing the quests you are given in the main hubs (all of which you come across just by following the main quest).
 

DalekFlay

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Heavy disagree there. I'm fine with open world exploration when it is done well, but New Vegas simply doesn't do it well. As I've said, there's hardly any reason to explore since you will come across almost all important locations just by doing the quests you are given in the main hubs (all of which you come across just by following the main quest).

It encourages exploration because there's actually interesting shit to find, rather than randomized nonsense like Witcher 3. There's gaps of nothing between locations of course, but that's typical of the genre and I can't think of a game without that. Again, New Vegas's locations aren't as spread out among nothing as Witcher 3's are. Piranha Bytes does it best IMO but New Vegas is better than most.
 

Butter

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It's not exploration if you're guaranteed to find something cool every 15 seconds. That's just following the Dopamine Trail.
 

Cryomancer

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I will not answer all points BUT

  • In New Vegas, there is a lot of ammo variety but little reason to use it.

Little reason to use it? A .45-70 hollow point can literally OHK unarmored wild animals while normal ammo can't BUT the hollow point is atrocious against a power armored BoS paladin. Also, Fallout 2 has way less ammo variety. Snipers can only use .223 FMJ, while on new vegas, you have Marksman Carbine(556), Hunting Rifle(.308) and Anti Materiel rifle, even a scoped 45-70 revolver can be used at range. And note that each ammo type has a lot of variations. You can use .38 special on your .357 magnum, it will deal less damage but be less expensive.

I would say New Vegas does have interesting quests and a very cool faction system, but most of the mechanics New Vegas brought into the table don't make much of a difference, were already present in Fallout/Fallout 2,

Fallout New Vegas has a lot of cool weapons which doesn't exist on FL1/2. Eg >



For a lot of people shooting is just spray and pray with fast firing SMG's. When IRL, most "assault rifles" are used on short bursts. In a post apocalyptic world, repeating firearms since they require less maintenance and works better with low quality ammo will probably be the norm.

I don't get why so few games put incendiary and explosive ammo on it. I mean, explosive ammo and incendiary ammo is so expensive that i never fired a single round IRL. I don't find spray and praying satisfying in any game. The point of rpg games is to simulate things that we can't do IRL. In fact, New Vegas could have weird exotic "EMP ammo" or something like that, could allow you to create your own securitrons, drive energy cell based armored vehicles, but FNV is great on the possiblities that it allow the players. This stuff would only make it even better

PS : When i mean portable, i mean a light smg, not a mg42. Of course a MG 42 fired on prone position should be accurate

PS 2 : Just imagine driving in the desert with a sdkfz 222
 
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Bigg Boss

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New Vegas DLC made other ammo types very useful. Especially on harder difficulties.
 

TemplarGR

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It's not exploration if you're guaranteed to find something cool every 15 seconds. That's just following the Dopamine Trail.

Of course it is. Like real life exploration. Why do you think people who love to explore in real life actually do it? There are 2 ways, dopamine rush (for fun), or to discover new places to get rich (again, dopamine rush of a different kind).

And by the way, we do play video games for the dopamine rush. That is how we are having fun playing video games. I mean, why explore in a video games if you are not meant to find something cool and be happy? For work? Are you a worker for the company that made the game and you explore it to make money? No?

Seriously guys, drop the autism at some point. Games are meant to be fun. And dopamine rush is good.
 

Sigourn

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It encourages exploration because there's actually interesting shit to find

Like? There are a few caves here and there with an unique weapon or a piece of unique Power Armor, but other than that I thought New Vegas' optional locations were entirely forgettable.
We can agree that my definition of "exploration" is different, and I consider "exploration" to be the act of discovering stuff on my own without the game leading me to it.

Little reason to use it? A .45-70 hollow point can literally OHK unarmored wild animals while normal ammo can't BUT the hollow point is atrocious against a power armored BoS paladin. Also, Fallout 2 has way less ammo variety. Snipers can only use .223 FMJ, while on new vegas, you have Marksman Carbine(556), Hunting Rifle(.308) and Anti Materiel rifle, even a scoped 45-70 revolver can be used at range. And note that each ammo type has a lot of variations. You can use .38 special on your .357 magnum, it will deal less damage but be less expensive.

My issue is that you are talking about difficulty and price in a game where the difficulty is very low and making caps is very easy. That is, never did I feel like going for cheap ammo because I never had a reason to, since there are caps a plenty. HP and AP already existed in Fallout, what about all the other dozens of unique ammo which I never found any genuine need for?

Your observatoin on cool ammo is on point, but I have to repeat myself here: because I found the combat unexciting and the difficulty low, I can't say I found the ammo selection exciting. It's just my opinion, feel free to disagree. It's what this thread's for: post a controversial opinion which you think is true, and I do think New Vegas isn't exactly a good game.
 

Butter

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It's not exploration if you're guaranteed to find something cool every 15 seconds. That's just following the Dopamine Trail.

Of course it is. Like real life exploration. Why do you think people who love to explore in real life actually do it? There are 2 ways, dopamine rush (for fun), or to discover new places to get rich (again, dopamine rush of a different kind).

And by the way, we do play video games for the dopamine rush. That is how we are having fun playing video games. I mean, why explore in a video games if you are not meant to find something cool and be happy? For work? Are you a worker for the company that made the game and you explore it to make money? No?

Seriously guys, drop the autism at some point. Games are meant to be fun. And dopamine rush is good.
Why not masturbate 10 times a day? Just think of all the dopamine you could be getting. I'm obviously not against getting a dopamine reward in games, but it doesn't mean anything if it's happening constantly, or if I don't have to make any effort to get it. Consider puzzle games, or puzzles in general. You get dopamine when you succeed, but only if there was some degree of challenge and effort required to complete the puzzle.
 

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