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The greatest sins of modern crpgs

Butter

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Pixel hunting is the name of the game for example in DOS games. Where you have to open every single vase in existence in search of loot, you have to pick every little thing and fill your inventory with shit. You press X to highlight items and your screen fills with shit to pick up, 99% of those being completely useless.
If there's a button that highlights interactable objects, then you're not pixel hunting.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
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Feb 6, 2016
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  • Everyone talks like a fag, see Deadfire's mismash of retarded accents.
  • There isn't a button to switch the artstyle to anime.
  • There are not enough anime titties.
Fix those and you've extended the lifetime of cRPGs for another six decades.
 

Serious_Business

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I have been thinking a lot lately, about something i noticed about myself. I have tried many times to cut my wrists from boredom. For much time i couldn't pinpoint why was that, i mean, i grew up the problem with the unfair combat that leads to trash. Many of those kitchen sink keep adding stuff because some retard asked for those during early access, and end up with something that on paper seems fine but on actual gameplay pokeman Yeah baby! I just can't find any motivation to decide What other choices are there to make? Dress up, picking some items, and some dialogue options. That's about it. You are playing 60 or 80 or 100 or 120 hours, and how many times you make interesting, worthwhile trash combat with the occasional boss and the occasional exposition. Is that worth that many hours of your life?

Maximum potato right there. I was going to work up this collage to the end but this is giving me a serious headache
 

Cryomancer

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As i've said many times, you just dislike tactical CRPGs. You prefer action focused RPG's.

Also, i strongly disagree that PoE """fixed""" problems of the genre, in fact, they tried to hard to """fix""" the (non) problems that ended with far worse problems. Eg > On the lore, wizards are intellectuals. It is 100% possible to be a Wizard with a retarded intellect on PoE 1/2. The "we should't have bad builds" bs lead to a attribute system completely dissociated with the lore.

And Kingmaker doesn't require save scumming if you have a 2 digit IQ or play on story mode.
 

DalekFlay

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Only read your two actual points. I agree with point 2 a bit. A lot of the incline games can feel meandering, like they lacked a clear narrative drive to focus on, and they drag on too long as a result. I know some equate time with value, and 150 hours of Kingmaker means it's even better, but I've got a lot of games to get to, and half those hours felt repetitive and scattered in focus.

Lots of classic games and modern "AAA" games have the same problem though. I think it's a shared problem of wanting to give the consumer the previously mentioned "value," or thinking BIG and OPEN and MASSIVE are huge selling points.
 

TemplarGR

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As i've said many times, you just dislike tactical CRPGs. You prefer action focused RPG's.

Also, i strongly disagree that PoE """fixed""" problems of the genre, in fact, they tried to hard to """fix""" the (non) problems that ended with far worse problems. Eg > On the lore, wizards are intellectuals. It is 100% possible to be a Wizard with a retarded intellect on PoE 1/2. The "we should't have bad builds" bs lead to a attribute system completely dissociated with the lore.

And Kingmaker doesn't require save scumming if you have a 2 digit IQ or play on story mode.

This is a collection of fake news...

1) I don't dislike tactical CRPGs. I grew up on them. And i keep trying to like the recent ones. It is just that there are no tactical CRPGs. There are pseudo-tactical CRPGs, there is a huge difference. There are no tactics involved in nu-isometrics. There is the illusion of choices and tactics, a strong illusion but illusion nontheless. I keep wondering when i am playing them "what choice did i actually make?" And there is none. Most of the choices happen at the character creation screen. For example, if in DOS i chose to have a summoner ability, that is all i will be doing constantly in every battle, summoning a creature. The choice was made at the character building screen once, not in battles. In battles it is no choice, it is the natural execution of the choice i made earlier at the character screen, after all, abilities are somewhat numerically limited and i have to fight with something. It might have been fully-automatic like in Deadfire, for example, without me having to actually click to summon, but summoning through a script at every battle automagically.

The point i am trying to make is that the only "choice" you get to make in battles is to physically attack or use abilities. And those things are prepared at the character screen and inventory screen occasionally, then all you are doing is busywork in combat. When i pick the weapon i want to hit with, i don't pick it everytime i hit with it, i only pick it once at the inventory screen and then occasionally switch it. Then what other choice do i make? To attack an enemy? Well, it is either that, or not playing at all, what other "choice" is there? Tactics happen in a game where you have a multiple of different approaches that actually fundamentally change the way combat goes. In most nu-isometrics, the most important and influential decisions happen outside of battle. Not during battle. So they are not really tactical games.

Tactical games contain tactics. I should know because i primarily am a strategy game player, not an RPGer, RPGs are my second-loved genre. The difference is that even baby's first tactics, nu-xcom, is leaps and bounds more tactical than any "tactical crpg". Tactics is not simply "focus fire on one enemy then rinse repeat" ad nauseum for 100 hours. In proper tactical games positioning matters, elevation matters, troop types matter, synergies matter, morale matters, timing matters, cohesion matters, etc etc. In nu-crpgs nothing matters. Oh Divinity Original Sin has some lightweight things like elevation or elemental effects on the ground, but still is not tactical enough.

I like both tactics and action. The reason Skyrim is leaps and bounds a better CRPG than let's say Kingmaker, is not because it is actiony, but because it doesn't fail at action in the same way Cuckmaker fails at tactics. One is attempting to be the thing it pretends to be, the other is not.

2) PoE didn't fix the problems essentially, to that i actually agree. That is what i said in the OP, though my wording may have been trash so it is not clear. PoE II fixed the (surface) problems of Baldur's Gate, while still remaining a Baldur's Gate clone. The problem is, that Baldur's Gate itself as a type of game has serious issues, so polishing it is polishing a turd. I know people hate to hear it, but BG was not the holy grail of RPGs, even though it was one of my favorite games back then. Baldur's Gate on its own is a failed attempt at bringing tactics to RPGs. Don't get me wrong, in 1998 it was actually a revelation and much incline, but let's not pretend it was actually the best tactics a CRPG could be. It is very sad that people are so blinded by nostalgia that they make the genre they are supposed to love to be stranded on bad ideas and be stagnant. As for the "Wizards use might" stuff, you are arguing semantics and immersion. In the end, it is just a stupid number. Higher number is better, and they just chose to share that number between various classes to make it more balanced. Yeah it ruins your e-mershon but it is hardly something that ruins your gameplay, considering it is a choice you make at character creation screen and then you don't see again for 120 hours of playtime.

3) Playing in story mode is not playing. If i have to play a braindead mode, a God mode, a cheat mode, a no-challenge mode, in order to avoid savescumming, then you failed at game design. This is not debateable. Go to any game developer class and tell them that your normal difficulty setting actually requires savescumming to play. See how you get laughed out of the class. It is one thing to lose occasionally here and there in normal mode, that's ok. But frequent savescumming is a biiiiiig no-no, unless you are playing at the top difficulty. Also difficulty in Cuckmaker is not a matter of IQ, it is a matter of meta knowledge and RNG. Stop pretending you need to be smart to play it, you are not fooling anyone.
 

Urthor

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Modern RPGs really bombard you with too much stuff for you to be able to handle. Like hundred items that looks apparently same just have slightly different qualities and you can't decide which one to use. Sometimes less is more concept is more adequate.

Have you even played Deus Ex? There's like three games worth of gameplay loops in that game and all of them are amazing.

Sounds like the issue isn't with the game it's with the player
 

Cryomancer

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g". Tactics is not simply "focus fire on one enemy then rinse repeat" ad nauseum for 100 hours

You are completely wrong In fact, there are a lot of tactics on a RPG. For eg : Casting animate dead + cloudkill can be a nice combination on kingmaker and can reduce the enemy fort save due con damage, making then more susceptible to your spells. Also, kingmaker has a thing called detailed combat log. After losing a combat, you can see exactly why you lost. And with preparation, can easily overcome the challenge.
 

Dyspaire

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A common philosophy that seems to have taken root in crpgs and games in general over the past 20+ years is excess loot.

"Do you want treasure?! I'll give you fucking treasure!"

One of the very best things about many early games was the pure rarity of good loot. Not all, but it used to be a far more pervasive design goal than what we see today.

It's one of the very best things about the original Baldur's Gate for sure... finding a +1 weapon or piece of armor is a big fucking deal in BG1.

I'm trying to work my way through POE1 right now, and Eder is still using a flail and shield I found 10 levels ago, because it doesn't seem that gear really matters at all in the game.

There's just so much of it.

2c
 

TemplarGR

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A common philosophy that seems to have taken root in crpgs and games in general over the past 20+ years is excess loot.

"Do you want treasure?! I'll give you fucking treasure!"

One of the very best things about many early games was the pure rarity of good loot. Not all, but it used to be a far more pervasive design goal than what we see today.

It's one of the very best things about the original Baldur's Gate for sure... finding a +1 weapon or piece of armor is a big fucking deal in BG1.

I'm trying to work my way through POE1 right now, and Eder is still using a flail and shield I found 10 levels ago, because it doesn't seem that gear really matters at all in the game.

There's just so much of it.

2c

This is definitely one of the most serious issues of modern cprgs. They want to provide the illusion of choice and "realism" and they keep flooding you with shit you don't need, all the while they add small encumberance systems so you can't carry all that loot to at least sell it and get something out of it. Bullshit.
 

Saduj

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Aug 26, 2012
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What is the goal behind coming to a forum and repetitively writing posts that boil down to "The stuff people here like is bad."?

Every time the consensus has been "Good for you, fuck off" and only an idiot would expect that to change after the first dozen times or so....

Is there a point to this other to communicate the depth of a serious personality defect?
 

Incendax

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Jul 4, 2010
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The real reason is age. You are no longer a young pup, looking upon computer games with wide eyes of wonder. Every new game makes you feel less and less. Maybe you are more sophisticated now, or maybe you are sailing into the jaded horizon, but you will keep growing numb until only the most glorious of games will make you feel anything at all.

Games are a hell of a drug, man.
 
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Look, I realize the OP posts a lot of stupid shit, but for once, he might be onto something.

As someone who has played D:OS, D:OS2, PoE1, Underrail, AoD, Kingmaker, and Wasteland 2, I have to say, these games are just not very good. I have long been saying that aRPGs are doing a lot more interesting things now than iso RPGs, and fanboys accuse me of preferring aRPGs, but what you have to understand is that I love old school iso RPGs (PST, F1, F2, NetHack/Vulture are some of my all time favorites), and hell, I even enjoyed Divine Divinity way more than the D:OS games.

So what's going on? Why DO these nu-iso RPGs suck really?

Well, if you look at aRPGs during the golden age (late 90s/early 2000s), the pinnacles of the genre were Gothic 1/2, Daggerfall and Morrowind. So if you look at modern aRPGs or similar games, while you may argue whether or not they surpassed the overall greatness of some of those games relative to their era, you can absolutely see them improving in different areas, aside from graphics obviously. There was never an aRPG in the old days with such writing, dialogue, and lore as Witcher 3. There was never an aRPG with such an in-depth combat system and level of historical accuracy as Kingdom Come: Deliverance. There have never been aRPGs with such level of exploration and environmental interactivity as Breath of the Wild. I don't recall an old aRPG with the number of quests and level of C&C as ELEX. Or an old aRPG with the combat/build/weapon depth and challenge of Dark Souls.

So however you might feel about aRPGs as a subgenre, you cannot deny that it has been evolving in the last 20 years, and with games like Cyberpunk, KCD2, ELEX2, BotW2, Elden Ring etc, is set to evolve even further.

Meanwhile, over in iso land, the only novel thing I see is AoD's level of C&C, but given the rest of the game, it feels more like a proof-of-concept for a future game rather than an enjoyable RPG itself. D:OS games tried the whole "combine-elemental-spells" thing but that is such a cheap gimmick that it grows stale extremely fast. Kingmaker tried to expand on NWN2's kingdom expects but failed brutally. The rest of those games were fairly clonish to old classics.

So in my opinion, there has been almost no effective innovation at all in the iso subgenre. Without innovation, which is very important, the only way for these games to be really good is to be all-around good. For example, I am more willing to forgive Witcher 3's terrible exploiration mechanics because what it does with writing and cut-scenes is so new and amazing. But if a similar game comes out in 10 years, I would be much less excited.

However, none of these nu-iso RPGs are actually all-around good, not even close. Even if you claim that D:oS games have great combat (something I would personally debate), everyone has to admit their writing is beyond terrible, and the exploration is not really a drawing point either. PoE games are sorta OK-ish all around, but nothing really strikes me as excellent other than maybe pretty graphics. You all know how I feel about Kingmaker already. Underrail has interesting combat and character development, but the writing and exploration are mediocre at best.

Now why is it that aRPGs managed to innovate and create great stuff in the last 20 years, while iso RPGs have not? The answer is not particularly difficult to discern. The industry as a whole has moved on to newer technology and third/first perspective games in large degree, so there is a much higher chance of a full fledged dev studio working on an aRPG rather than an iso game. And the difference shows.

Does that mean iso-RPGs are dead? I don't think so necessarily, but I do think they will be very niche. What needs to happen, imho, is for some well financed studio to decide that it can make a fairly profitable iso-RPG (which I think is theoretically possible, after all if everyone is competing to make the next great aRPGs, it might be cheaper and easier to make something different), and dedicate real resources to it. It would also help if they could zero in on some potential advantages that iso RPGs have over aRPGs: for example, afaik, iso RPGs cost a lot less to make with lower level of detail and possible a lot less voice overs (you don't need to voice over all dialogue in iso games I believe), so one draw could be to use the savings to create a trully massive game, imagine a whole continent with vast jungles, deserts, mountains, plains, etc. Also a ton of (hopefully well written) text which you wouldn't have to voice over, so you could go really deep into politics, lore, intelligent conversations, and so on.
 

Cryomancer

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There was never an aRPG in the old days with such writing, dialogue, and lore as Witcher 3

Completely wrong. VtMB and VtR are IMO the best in dialogue. Also, Witcher 3 has a fix protagonist which makes everything easier. Is far easier to make a story that makes sense for a lets suppose lawful good warrior than a story which can make sense for a chaotic evil warlock to a lawful good paladin. Pick nwn2 for eg, the OC just assume that the player is a LG fighter. A paladin who worships Tyr could have said that is he did the atrocity during the chapter 2 trial, he would lose his powers and easily proof his innocence. A sorcerer? Can argue that he would never do that is his "original form", show to everyone in the court that he can shapeshift and a cleric, can ask to the court for permission to cast zone of truth or cast without the accuser knowing, a rogue could put evidences on the accuser without being noticed and make the royal guard discover it and so on.

You are terrible wrong about isometric RPG's giving less options than actions. Baldur's Gate 2 had over 300 spells. In what game you have so many spells? And note that only wish can produce dozens of different effects. On Kingmaker, in a side quest, you can burn a lizardfolk village if you are evil, can even recruit a villain and a evil run on kingmaker changes a lot. On Fallout 1/2, low INT runs changes things a lot too. Note that you are picking the best of Action RPG's. Why not see fallout 4? Dragon Age inquisition? Mass Effect Andromeda? Diablo 3? All AAA ARPG's which are far worse than TW3, Dark/Demon Souls and so on.

And i strongly disagree that the pinnacle was Daggerfall/Morrowind and Gothic 1/2. They are great games but not as BG1/2. In fact, Gothic 2 has some problems. Eg : Remember Xartdas? The guy who teaches circle 6 magic on G1? Why he can't teach me the most basic spells? Why i need to become a "sheep of innos" to learn magic? And you learn spells like Army of Darkness on Monastery or Innos. That is ludicrous. Imagine in D&D if you had to learn create greater undead on the temple of Tyr. Or in Elder Scrolls if you had to learn how to craft dark soulgems on the temple of Akatosh. Gothic 1 did a better job with magic, where fire magicians, produce fire runes, water magicians water based runes and the swamp camp his weird runes. Gothic 3 which is a divisive game too. In fact, you can only learn end game spells like haimstorm if you side with a faction. Saturas refusing to teach his greatest secrets to someone who isn't fully commited with his "neutral agenda" also makes perfectly sense. Bows/Crossbows with lockon on Gothic 1/2 is also not satisfying. I mean, i can freely aim my bow on Morrowind. Why not on gothic?

PS : BoTW is not a RPG.
 
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"VtMB and VtR are IMO the best in dialogue."

I am going to assume you are joking about VtMR. Witcher 3 writing, dialogue and cut-scenes are millions of miles ahead of Bloodlines. Bloodlines writing was ok, it wasn't cringy like modern games, but there wasn't much there, and it was always hailed back in the day more for atmosphere and C&C rather than writing per se.

"You are terrible wrong about isometric RPG's giving less options than actions."

Wut?

"And i strongly disagree that the pinnacle was Daggerfall/Morrowind and Gothic 1/2. They are great games but not as BG1/2."

Wut, part 2? Do you know what aRPGs are, my good man?
 

Cryomancer

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I am going to assume you are joking about VtMR. Witcher 3 writing, dialogue and cut-scenes are millions of miles ahead of Bloodlines. Bloodlines writing was ok, it wasn't cringy like modern games, but there wasn't much there, and it was always hailed back in the day more for atmosphere and C&C rather than writing per se.

You din't explained why TW3 "writing" is so better than old school games. In quality of cutscenes, sure, but in options?

As i've already said, TW needs to write a story for Geralt. VtMB needs to write a story for anything between a male Tremere to a Female Malkavian/Nosferatu. And the righting is amazing for any clan. A malk run is hilarious. a nosferatu run very different and depressive. Maybe if you limit the options to only fighters on this old school games, TW3 can give more options, since be able to use a necromancer spell to talk to the dead and solve a quest in a different way on Arcanum was so epic. No modern game allowed me to do that. Spellcasting on 99% of modern games is spamming the same rotation of non lethal boring spells over and over. And generally is completely dissociated with the world's lore. Pathfinder Kingmaker is the unique game in DECADES where i don't need to mod to make a might necromancer.

Talking about gameplay options, TW3 has only swords, no polearms, no axes... And only 5 signs. The alchemy of TW is good. But i an really hoping to see if the gunplay on Cyberpunk 2077 will be good.

PS : I also liked more Divine Divinity over DOS1/DOS2. And could't play DOS1/2.
 
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Ol' Willy

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So however you might feel about aRPGs as a subgenre, you cannot deny that it has been evolving in the last 20 years,
The only way in which aRPGs evolved in the past 20 years is combat, graphics and cinematic cutscenes. All others components, being game mechanics, reactivity, C&C and such have greatly degraded. Aren't you a graphicfag perchance?
 

coldcrow

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Pretty elaborate troll post : 8/10

DOS 1 and 2, Pathfinder Kingmaker, PoE 2 Deadfire, Atom RPG, Tyranny, Underrail, Wasteland 2
Lump the all together, hang them all together I guess?

The games don't seem to have any focus.
Zero examples provided, for example Atom and Underrail are pretty focused.

Actually, this is the worst thing about the nu-crpgs:
The older rpgs like icewind dale and bg had so many interesting decisions, right?

or a proper dungeon crawler like Darkest Dungeon or Iratus
:lol:
 
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You din't explained why TW3 "writing" is so better than old school games. In quality of cutscenes, sure, but in options?

Options fall more under C&C. W3 writing is great in the actual writing sense, dialogues not only sound like real people talking, but interesting real people. The politics, the well done humor, the lines, the emotional content, the various quest and storylines, it's all on a different level. Bloodlines is much more primitive in this sense, comparatively speaking.

The only way in which aRPGs evolved in the past 20 years is combat, graphics and cinematic cutscenes. All others components, being game mechanics, reactivity, C&C and such have greatly degraded. Aren't you a graphicfag perchance?

You don't think BotW and ELEX (or even recent Ass Creed games) have massively improved on world interactivity and/or vertical exploration? ELEX has more quests and C&C than any other aRPG I can think of other than New Vegas, which also incidentally was released in the last 10 years. How about the itemization of armor in KCD? The layered levels in Dark Souls games? Pawn mechanics in Dragon's Dogma?
 

wahrk

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I have to agree with Porky here. I’ve enjoyed most of the new cRPGs (even Pillars) but I don’t see much innovation of the formula there. Most seem to be looking backwards trying to clone the feel of old cRPGs, rather than forge ahead with new ideas, and often they end up more flawed than the originals.

As i've already said, TW needs to write a story for Geralt. VtMB needs to write a story for anything between a male Tremere to a Female Malkavian/Nosferatu.

VtMB is a great game, but you’re conflating writing with reactivity here. TW3 has a fixed protagonist and so it doesn’t need to do this. It’s writing and C&C is great, regardless, and better than Bloodlines.

On Fallout 1/2, low INT runs changes things a lot too. Note that you are picking the best of Action RPG's. Why not see fallout 4? Dragon Age inquisition? Mass Effect Andromeda? Diablo 3? All AAA ARPG's which are far worse than TW3, Dark/Demon Souls and so on.

And you aren’t picking the very best of iso RPGs? You’re proving his point by bringing up games from 20+ years ago. Fallout and Arcanum were great and did all sorts of innovative things. What recent iso RPGs have even matched these games, much less innovated beyond them?

Talking about gameplay options, TW3 has only swords, no polearms, no axes... And only 5 signs. The alchemy of TW is good. But i an really hoping to see if the gunplay on Cyberpunk 2077 will be good.

Irrelevant since he never claimed TW3’s strong suit was combat options. He praised it for its writing and characters.
 

Cryomancer

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Options fall more under C&C

As i already have said, compare a game who needs to make choices and consequences for 666*10²³ possible characters with a game with a fix protagonist is not fair. Is far more easy to write a dialogue for Geralt than a dialogue for anything between a LG paladin to a CE necromancer. But talking about options.
  • Baldur's Gate 2 had over 300 spells
  • Dragon Age Origins over 90
  • Dragon Age Inquisition about 20
And on quality, not only quantity, BG2 spells are much better. Only wish gives dozens of possible wishes to ask for. Modern elex games also has way less spells than Gothic 1/2/3. If you enjoy playing as a "ranger", fallout new vegas is the best game. If you enjoy playing as a spellcaster, PFKM is the best game. TW3 is only great if you enjoy mostly melee combat(which is not my case. I only love melee in few games like M&B where plate armor actually deflects fast swinging blades and polearms and cavalry are great)

And you aren’t picking the very best of iso RPGs? You’re proving his point by bringing up games from 20+ years ago. Fallout and Arcanum were great and did all sorts of innovative things. What recent iso RPGs have even matched these games, much less innovated beyond them?

Well, Kingmaker did a amazing job with choices and consequences.

You can depending the quests decisions and kingdom management decisions, have even alterations on the final chapter, if you researched some stuff or not. Or even if your capital will have undead workers which construct things quicker than normal workers but a lot of people hate it or not. If you have golems protecting your capital. Depending on your alignment, your buildings are different. Lawful guys can't construct brothels. Evil guys can solve the quest involving lizardfolk in a different way. IF you play as a Wizard, the scrolls which merchants on your city can sell you are tied to your realm's arcane rank. so you invest a lot of arcane buildings and researches if you plan to play as a wizard. And so on. Hell, even a unique adviser exists depending on your alignment. Chapter 4 spoilers bellow.

A lich. The lich who attacked Varnhold can serve you if you are evil and pass some dialog checks. He is a good advisor and solving some troubles with him is far easier. You can also traffic the soul jars that he collected for monetary gain.

Hell, you can even romance a antagonist and there are even a complete optional final chapter. Depending on decisions.

And the kingdom management was a innovation and is "linked" towards the MC. For eg, a single event between many events is called undead workers. Would you accept undead workers on your kingdom? If yes, you can build things faster BUT if Octavia is your advisor, she will be pissed and if she gets really pissed she can leave. It also affects relations with other kingdoms but gives arcane rank to your kingdom. A side quest can give to you the ability to research and have golems protecting your cities. Your alingment also determine what buildings you can create. If you are chaotic, you can build brothels for eg. Talking about variety on character building, on NWN1 dragon's disciples can only be of red draconic origins. On PFKM, you can have any metallic or chromatic draconic ancestry. Hell, a sorcerer of undead bloodline gains completely different things compared to a sorcerer of abyssal bloodline.

Kingmaker is a masterpiece on character creation and options.

And pathfinder wrath of the righteous will bring mythic paths and a lot of unique crusade mechanic with large scale battle rules and far more options, like the option to become a lich or a demon lord(nor sure)
 

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