Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[gurugeorge]

I've recently been wondering about a Druid build, as I've got the perfect portrait for it. Thinking about maybe multiclassing a bit into Vivisectionist for the sneak attack and mutagens, and maybe a bit of Tactician Inquisitor. Anyone have any experience playing around with that sort of thing? On testing out a Druid merc for a quick spin, I was disappointed to see that he was weaker than his pet in corresponding beast shape! If I as a mighty magic user am going to transform into a beast, surely it's going to be the most magnificent example of its species?

Druids are most optimal as a reach melee support caster or as a primary spellcaster, wildshape builds are not very strong (fun though)

So is it not worth faffing about with Viv to get the sneak attack and mutagens, and Inquisitor to get the feat sharing? Just go full DotTW for a bit of extra endgame oomph maybe?

 

[Yosharian]

I've recently been wondering about a Druid build, as I've got the perfect portrait for it. Thinking about maybe multiclassing a bit into Vivisectionist for the sneak attack and mutagens, and maybe a bit of Tactician Inquisitor. Anyone have any experience playing around with that sort of thing? On testing out a Druid merc for a quick spin, I was disappointed to see that he was weaker than his pet in corresponding beast shape! If I as a mighty magic user am going to transform into a beast, surely it's going to be the most magnificent example of its species?

Druids are most optimal as a reach melee support caster or as a primary spellcaster, wildshape builds are not very strong (fun though)

So is it not worth faffing about with Viv to get the sneak attack and mutagens, and Inquisitor to get the feat sharing? Just go full DotTW for a bit of extra endgame oomph maybe?

Are you trying to make an optimal build, or a fun one? If you want to just make something fun, do whatever you like.

Druid is a class that is most optimal when making the most out of its full range of spells, dipping stuff like Vivi and losing spells as a result is not optimal

Traditional Monk 1 is the only dip for this class that is remotely optimal and it still hurts

 

[gurugeorge]

I've recently been wondering about a Druid build, as I've got the perfect portrait for it. Thinking about maybe multiclassing a bit into Vivisectionist for the sneak attack and mutagens, and maybe a bit of Tactician Inquisitor. Anyone have any experience playing around with that sort of thing? On testing out a Druid merc for a quick spin, I was disappointed to see that he was weaker than his pet in corresponding beast shape! If I as a mighty magic user am going to transform into a beast, surely it's going to be the most magnificent example of its species?

Druids are most optimal as a reach melee support caster or as a primary spellcaster, wildshape builds are not very strong (fun though)

So is it not worth faffing about with Viv to get the sneak attack and mutagens, and Inquisitor to get the feat sharing? Just go full DotTW for a bit of extra endgame oomph maybe?

Are you trying to make an optimal build, or a fun one? If you want to just make something fun, do whatever you like.

Druid is a class that is most optimal when making the most out of its full range of spells, dipping stuff like Vivi and losing spells as a result is not optimal

Traditional Monk 1 is the only dip for this class that is remotely optimal and it still hurts

I generally play on Challenging, so it has to be reasonably efficient, but there's a bit of elbow room for some fun.

 

[Yosharian]

I've recently been wondering about a Druid build, as I've got the perfect portrait for it. Thinking about maybe multiclassing a bit into Vivisectionist for the sneak attack and mutagens, and maybe a bit of Tactician Inquisitor. Anyone have any experience playing around with that sort of thing? On testing out a Druid merc for a quick spin, I was disappointed to see that he was weaker than his pet in corresponding beast shape! If I as a mighty magic user am going to transform into a beast, surely it's going to be the most magnificent example of its species?

Druids are most optimal as a reach melee support caster or as a primary spellcaster, wildshape builds are not very strong (fun though)

So is it not worth faffing about with Viv to get the sneak attack and mutagens, and Inquisitor to get the feat sharing? Just go full DotTW for a bit of extra endgame oomph maybe?

Are you trying to make an optimal build, or a fun one? If you want to just make something fun, do whatever you like.

Druid is a class that is most optimal when making the most out of its full range of spells, dipping stuff like Vivi and losing spells as a result is not optimal

Traditional Monk 1 is the only dip for this class that is remotely optimal and it still hurts

I generally play on Challenging, so it has to be reasonably efficient, but there's a bit of elbow room for some fun.

DOTW 19/Traditional Monk 1 can make for a reasonably effective Wildshape build, IIRC the Earth Elemental is the best

I believe COTW has some good feats for Wildshape builds so you might want to consider that

 

[amurath]

InEffect has a pretty nice Feyspeaker build: https://af.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post664?as=1649904300, although if I was making it my main character build, I would raise Int. and take two levels of Paladin instead of Fighter.

 

[gurugeorge]

I've recently been wondering about a Druid build, as I've got the perfect portrait for it. Thinking about maybe multiclassing a bit into Vivisectionist for the sneak attack and mutagens, and maybe a bit of Tactician Inquisitor. Anyone have any experience playing around with that sort of thing? On testing out a Druid merc for a quick spin, I was disappointed to see that he was weaker than his pet in corresponding beast shape! If I as a mighty magic user am going to transform into a beast, surely it's going to be the most magnificent example of its species?

Druids are most optimal as a reach melee support caster or as a primary spellcaster, wildshape builds are not very strong (fun though)

So is it not worth faffing about with Viv to get the sneak attack and mutagens, and Inquisitor to get the feat sharing? Just go full DotTW for a bit of extra endgame oomph maybe?

Are you trying to make an optimal build, or a fun one? If you want to just make something fun, do whatever you like.

Druid is a class that is most optimal when making the most out of its full range of spells, dipping stuff like Vivi and losing spells as a result is not optimal

Traditional Monk 1 is the only dip for this class that is remotely optimal and it still hurts

I generally play on Challenging, so it has to be reasonably efficient, but there's a bit of elbow room for some fun.

DOTW 19/Traditional Monk 1 can make for a reasonably effective Wildshape build, IIRC the Earth Elemental is the best

I believe COTW has some good feats for Wildshape builds so you might want to consider that

Thanks! Yeah, I've been playing around respeccing the Merc:
Human. Starting stats 12,12,12,11,19,10
At lvl 11 so far I've got DOTW 5 (Plant Domain)/Viv 2/Sacred Huntsmaster 3 (Erastil, Community Domain, Animal companion from this rather than Druid)/Sensei Monk 1.

Spell focus on Transmutation(+Greater) for the control and buff spells, Evocation and Conjuration (might drop this for another feat, maybe weapon focus Bite?). Dodge, Crane Wing (+3 mobility ofc). Sacred Huntsmaster shares Outlfank to pet (using Bear for flavour because of the goddamn portrait I found

I like the flexibility of the Mutagen being able to boost STR/CON or DEX for Wolf/Bear or Leopard, and I can switch out Amulet of Mighty or Agile Fists respectively (they do work).

Even just in Wolf form atm, she's great at charging/tripping and can take a fair old chunk out of the enemies' health bar.

I dunno, seems to be working absolutely fine on Challenging at this level, but ofc who knows what it's like on higher levels and whether it would be viable as a player character from the get-go on Unfair (I suspect it might be IF she started as a Sacred Huntsmaster and I maybe switched to the Aasimar race).

Theme: she was an inquisitor of Erastil, then some Fey shenanigans blew her mind, then she went a bit crazy as a vivisector trying to find out secrets so she could fight the fey, then she calmed down and monked a bit, and finally found balance and became dedicated to defending the True World

Certainly lots of fun to play around with anyway!

 

[Yosharian]

12,12,12,11,19,10 definitely seems like a primary spellcaster distribution to me

 

[gurugeorge]

InEffect has a pretty nice Feyspeaker build: https://af.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post664?as=1649904300, although if I was making it my main character build, I would raise Int. and take two levels of Paladin instead of Fighter.

Excellent. Yeah, that seems to be more of a shapeshifter fighter with a sideline in spells, I'm thinking more of a CC-er/jack of all trades with a sideline in shapeshifting (e.g. for tripping utiility and elemental counters), plus of course the anti-Fey angle.

I do wonder whether you could have the same shapeshifting fun or better with a STR/CHA Sorcerer using Beast Shape spells though ...

 

[Yosharian]

1/2 BAB with Feyspeaker though, that hurts any character that tries to be a physical presence

 

[Haplo]

InEffect has a pretty nice Feyspeaker build: https://af.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post664?as=1649904300, although if I was making it my main character build, I would raise Int. and take two levels of Paladin instead of Fighter.

Excellent. Yeah, that seems to be more of a shapeshifter fighter with a sideline in spells, I'm thinking more of a CC-er/jack of all trades with a sideline in shapeshifting (e.g. for tripping utiility and elemental counters), plus of course the anti-Fey angle.

I do wonder whether you could have the same shapeshifting fun or better with a STR/CHA Sorcerer using Beast Shape spells though ...

Then you kinda seem to be missing that shapeshifting in Pathfinder only modifies base scores instead of replacing them....

 

[amurath]

1/2 BAB with Feyspeaker though, that hurts any character that tries to be a physical presence

True, but smilodon form gives you 5 APR at full BAB, plus a trip, so it's not too bad. It's not a Vivi or Saint, but should hold its own at higher levels.

 

[gurugeorge]

InEffect has a pretty nice Feyspeaker build: https://af.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post664?as=1649904300, although if I was making it my main character build, I would raise Int. and take two levels of Paladin instead of Fighter.

Excellent. Yeah, that seems to be more of a shapeshifter fighter with a sideline in spells, I'm thinking more of a CC-er/jack of all trades with a sideline in shapeshifting (e.g. for tripping utiility and elemental counters), plus of course the anti-Fey angle.

I do wonder whether you could have the same shapeshifting fun or better with a STR/CHA Sorcerer using Beast Shape spells though ...

Then you kinda seem to be missing that shapeshifting in Pathfinder only modifies base scores instead of replacing them....

Eh? Yeah I know that, how does what I said miss it?

 

[Haplo]

You wanted to shapeshift, yet your planned physical stats are sad, so there is a kind of dissonance...

 

[The Reflex]

I'M amped up for a party where I have no buffing to do whatsoever

I know the feeling, and I was at least very successful making a (DEX) tank for it.
Aasimar 7/19/14/14/18/7, finishes up at like Thug 4/Monk 1/Duelist 5/Swordlord 1/Defender rest
Can switch WIS and CHA around to make MC, going for more Persuation and less Perception. In that case, Monk 1 becomes Scaled Fist 1

Could run her into an enemy room into the middle of enemies (high mobility) or even spotting traps (high perception) and disarming them (high trickster).
Robes, bracers +8, best Dueling sword you can find, go for the usual tanking feats (dodge, crane, etc). Thug 4 gives some feats for free that are needed for both Duelist and Swordlord

Another buff-less build I did was Hospitaler 16/Thug 4. Keen Weapon and the big axe from the lich, focus on persuation and all sort of persuation+intimidate boosting items, it's a Dazzling Display fest. It's not as OP as the tank above, but it's so much fun to have it run it to the face of a Wild Hunt Monarch and bash it - a dazzling display with probably trigger before the Monarch can summon, making it run in panic. This is a "fixer" char with some heals, restoration, and high party protection vs fear effects

I had fun with the Monster Tactician 17/Vivi 1/Fighter 2 - Grab a bardiche, summon those badass beasts (evil better than good here), stand behind your tank and poke poke poke

Last but not least, the well known Deliverer 20, best longbow you can find, fire and forget

 

[gurugeorge]

You wanted to shapeshift, yet your planned physical stats are sad, so there is a kind of dissonance...

But that's what I meant: InEffect's Feyspeaker, having the physical stats maxed, is a shapeshifter with a sideline in spells, what I'm thinking of is more like a caster with a sideline in shapeshifting. IOW, I'm trying to maximize shapeshifting as much as I can without compromising the spellcasting.

 

[Yosharian]

You wanted to shapeshift, yet your planned physical stats are sad, so there is a kind of dissonance...

But that's what I meant: InEffect's Feyspeaker, having the physical stats maxed, is a shapeshifter with a sideline in spells, what I'm thinking of is more like a caster with a sideline in shapeshifting. IOW, I'm trying to maximize shapeshifting as much as I can without compromising the spellcasting.

Then you're doing it wrong

 

[gurugeorge]

You wanted to shapeshift, yet your planned physical stats are sad, so there is a kind of dissonance...

But that's what I meant: InEffect's Feyspeaker, having the physical stats maxed, is a shapeshifter with a sideline in spells, what I'm thinking of is more like a caster with a sideline in shapeshifting. IOW, I'm trying to maximize shapeshifting as much as I can without compromising the spellcasting.

Then you're doing it wrong

Please explain.

 

[Yosharian]

You wanted to shapeshift, yet your planned physical stats are sad, so there is a kind of dissonance...

But that's what I meant: InEffect's Feyspeaker, having the physical stats maxed, is a shapeshifter with a sideline in spells, what I'm thinking of is more like a caster with a sideline in shapeshifting. IOW, I'm trying to maximize shapeshifting as much as I can without compromising the spellcasting.

Then you're doing it wrong

Please explain.

Your stat distribution combined with the half BAB means your attack rolls will be shit, your AC poor and your hit points low. You'll be a relatively decent spellcaster and a pretty bad shape shifter.

Which means you might as well not bother with the shape shifting at all.

It would be a different matter if you could plink away at enemies from range, but Wildshape forces you into melee, where you'll be terribly exposed.

This is not a good strategy.

 

[gurugeorge]

You wanted to shapeshift, yet your planned physical stats are sad, so there is a kind of dissonance...

But that's what I meant: InEffect's Feyspeaker, having the physical stats maxed, is a shapeshifter with a sideline in spells, what I'm thinking of is more like a caster with a sideline in shapeshifting. IOW, I'm trying to maximize shapeshifting as much as I can without compromising the spellcasting.

Then you're doing it wrong

Please explain.

Your stat distribution combined with the half BAB means your attack rolls will be shit, your AC poor and your hit points low. You'll be a relatively decent spellcaster and a pretty bad shape shifter.

Which means you might as well not bother with the shape shifting at all.

It would be a different matter if you could plink away at enemies from range, but Wildshape forces you into melee, where you'll be terribly exposed.

This is not a good strategy.

It works pretty well on Challenging so far (lvl 12 atm). (Bear in mind the main functionality is trip in Wolf/Leopard form, which she's pretty good at, and I'm using Mutagen and strength belt, with dex gloves, and I've got Shield and Dodge plus Crane Style). I'll see how it goes later into the game. I've started another char as Sacred Huntsmaster on Unfair, to have the same sort of build, to see how that works out from lvl 1 - pretty decent class to start with to get over the early hump, what with the Acolyte throw thing. Playing this game far too much lol, just can't seem to stop

 

[LannTheStupid]

It works pretty well on Challenging

InEffect's builds are supposed to work on Unfair. You need to challenge yourself to make a build that does not work on Challenging.

 

[Desiderius]

If you stay straight Feyspeaker with no stupid splashes once you hit lvl 13 for Legendary + Smilodon Form (+ your pet!) you’ll be utterly dominant.

Yosh is negative theorycrafting again.

 

[Desiderius]

The purpose of Wildshaping is to give casters something productive to do when not casting since it doesn’t care about your crappy BAB. All attax are at full AB and you don’t get iteratives anyway.

Feyspeaker is unique in that it doesn’t have to worry nearly as much about AC since you get Image and Displacement.

 

[Desiderius]

Val Feyspeaker double Displacer Beast is the strongest toon I’ve played.

 

[gurugeorge]

The purpose of Wildshaping is to give casters something productive to do when not casting since it doesn’t care about your crappy BAB. All attax are at full AB and you don’t get iteratives anyway.

Feyspeaker is unique in that it doesn’t have to worry nearly as much about AC since you get Image and Displacement.

Yeah I can see it would be nice to have Mirror Image on tap, otherwise I have to rely on Jubi and he's usually too busy blowing things up

 

[Haplo]

The purpose of Wildshaping is to give casters something productive to do when not casting since it doesn’t care about your crappy BAB. All attax are at full AB and you don’t get iteratives anyway.

Feyspeaker is unique in that it doesn’t have to worry nearly as much about AC since you get Image and Displacement.

I wouldn't say "it doesn't care" about crappy BAB. It's... more tolerant for crappy BAB mabbe. Even if all attacks are at max AB, if that max AB is crap, that still doesn't add to a lot. And combining bad BAB progression class with terrible stats is a recipe for suckery.

Although can it beat the game on Challenging? Sure.