TBH 5e is slow and boring from about level 2 onwards. Everyone has tons of HP plus the PCs can't really die anyway. The only uncertainty is how many times you have to roll the die before you win.
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D&D 5E Discussion
- Thread starter Alchemist
- Start date
Disagree. The 3.0 Epic Level Handbook was awesome. Extremely broken and totally ridiculous, yes, but awesome.
Although I guess it's not for the "serious" player.
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- May 25, 2006
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- 8,363
Play it like a normal RPG? Sorry, I have no idea what you're doing wrong, but it's definitely something since I've never had that problem with any group.
Cryomancer
Arcane
For me, D&D is dungeons and Dragons and not dungeons and low level kobolds. About low lethality on 5e, 5e is better at low level exactly due the higher lethality a lv 1 warlock CAN OHK a warlock of the same level with eldritch blast. At lv 20, his eldritch blast is now 4 * the base damage while his health points is at least 10x bigger. As i've said comparing how much a fireball is effective against strahd as a 2e lv 16 necromancer and as a 5e lv 9 caster, mosters get way more HP than damage.
If you look to 2E, a lv 1 necromancer can OHK another lv 1 necromancer and a lv 20 necromancer can also OHK another lv 20 necromancer. In fact, most spells on 2E grow up +d6 damage / caster level while his hit points grow up d4 / caster level. On 5e, a fireball will always deal 6d8 damage unless you cast as a tier 4+ spell and everyone gets d6/d8 hit points / level.
High lethality makes the combat far more interesting, fun, engaging, teh stakes higher, the tension higher,
There's no debate 5e made the game much less lethal and most times the party strategy revolves around controlling enemies until you go through their hp. It is a problem, when I DM I had to think of things to make battles more strategically interesting on almost every fight. The fact no one will probably die as long as it's not a TPK or party members get left behind doesn't help much either.
2nd edition was the last edition to put a limit to the HP bloat nonsense (past level 9 you gained very few hp. Maybe not perfect but a serviceable and simple system). Many other classic RPGs had some kind of HP caps as well. WFRP, Rolemaster, you name it. It was a mistake to bring endless HP Bloat to 3e, one that apparently we still have to endure through the new editions and is very hard to fix without altering all existing creature stat blocks and messing with the balance of spells.
2nd edition was the last edition to put a limit to the HP bloat nonsense (past level 9 you gained very few hp. Maybe not perfect but a serviceable and simple system). Many other classic RPGs had some kind of HP caps as well. WFRP, Rolemaster, you name it. It was a mistake to bring endless HP Bloat to 3e, one that apparently we still have to endure through the new editions and is very hard to fix without altering all existing creature stat blocks and messing with the balance of spells.
Lhynn
Arcane
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2013
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- 9,852
He is right, you are wrong. The way the game is designed is to be without challenge and have a bunch of repetitive encounters, like 8 per fucking day.
You can do it differently, going the fewer but deadlier encounter routes by going against what it is recommended you do, though this will offset balance, as a lot of classes have very limited but powerful abilities they can burn through in a couple encounters, instead of rationing them.
rusty_shackleford
Arcane
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- Jan 14, 2018
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- 50,754
3e is the one that turned it into a game about superheroes, not sure why you guys are blaming 5e
PapaPetro
Guest
3e went a little too heavy on over-complicating the mechanics/physics of the game world. Spend a whole day figuring out the Use Rope DC to tie your shoes on rough terrain and if it's possible to Take-10. That kinda minutia holds up the game and storytelling.
The build selection was fun to theorycraft, but ultimately devolved into power cheese with role RP taking a backseat (Frankenstein multi-class characters with 2/4/1/1/5/3 splashes).
There's always Pathfinder.
The build selection was fun to theorycraft, but ultimately devolved into power cheese with role RP taking a backseat (Frankenstein multi-class characters with 2/4/1/1/5/3 splashes).
There's always Pathfinder.
Gyor
Savant
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2017
- Messages
- 731
Lolth was good once, back before she became jealous of Corellon Larethion her (ex) spouse.
PapaPetro
Guest
I know this is blasphemy, but maybe they need to move beyond HP. It was crutch in the past to describe the holistic complexity of physical health, survival, and luck of staying alive.
Sure, but 3.X isn't boring to play*. You can easily get killed even as a high-level character if you're not careful or just get unlucky.
(* except the times it devolves into looking up obscure rules about bonus stacking or grappling or whether outsiders sleep or whatever, grinding the game to a halt)
rusty_shackleford
Arcane
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- Jan 14, 2018
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- 50,754
It's boring if you're anything other than a codzilla because someone else will be
I gotta give you that, except the "someone else will be part". It's best played with players who know the game but restrain themselves from going overboard with the charop.
But yes, it's not good when someone builds a monstrously cheesy character and the game devolves either into DM vs. that character with the other characters becoming mere spectators, or into a borefest where that one character wins all combats by himself for the party.
Kliwer
Savant
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2018
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- 216
To be honest I do not understand most of this D&D5 critics. Sure, it's not a perfect system (I prefer, for example, Warhammer) but it's functional and definitely better than D&D3. Ye, I have changed my mind – a few months ago I had other opinion.
I also do not understand all those considerations about fighting. Typically during 10-12 hour PnP meeting we have 3 fights max (something at the very start, something in the middle to make a break from RP, and a boss fight in the end; the latter can usually be resolved by means other than combat; most of the meeting is RP and problem solving, it’s RPG, not a board game). So it is not as important part.
As a DM I have introduced a bunch of house-rules, but far less than in D&D3. I changed same spells: no resurrections, nerfed status-effect-removals (because disease should be a serious and long-lasting problem, not something to cure with 2 level spell), some spell descriptions from AD&D2 (for example Insect Plague in D&D5 is boring damage-dealing spell without additional effects). I have weakened the resting rules (in general players only receive 1/2 or 1/3 of HP in comparison to official ruleset + resting is impossible in many situations; for example in wilderness you have to find a shelter, a water etc. so survival skills are important – as well as surgery skills). I have introduced wounding rules (less than 50% HP and you starting to get some serious penalties to stats + you are risking an injury like broken leg, severed hand etc.). And that’s it. It's one page of house rules to make the system functional. In a comparison: I need a 20 pages long manual of house-rules to make D&D3 barrable.
And ye, I do not like high level adventures anyway. Most of my campaigns are in 4-13 level range. Above it everything starts to look stupid.
I also do not care about quality of any extra materials. For now I’m using Players Handbook and Monsters Manual from D&D5 + Campaign Setting from AD&D2 ant that’s it, I have no need nor will to buy anything else. From the very beginnings of my RPG adventures I was convinced that D&D was one big fraud and theft, aimed at unimaginative suckers. What’s the reason to buy all those shitty books? In case of all my favorite RPG systems (Warhammer 1. ed., Monastyr, Neuroshima) you really need only one books, containing everything: ruleset, spell book, bestiary, some advices for DM, a brief description of the world. It’s enough, really. After all RPGs are games about imagination. As a DM, I prefer to fill the gaps and blank spaces with my own ideas, rather than look for answers in 100 books. I do not need 50 pages of battle maneuvers and modifiers because it’s no time for all those mathematics in a heat of battle. I do not need a separate manual about every country in the world; one paragraph of a general description is all I need.
I also do not understand all those considerations about fighting. Typically during 10-12 hour PnP meeting we have 3 fights max (something at the very start, something in the middle to make a break from RP, and a boss fight in the end; the latter can usually be resolved by means other than combat; most of the meeting is RP and problem solving, it’s RPG, not a board game). So it is not as important part.
As a DM I have introduced a bunch of house-rules, but far less than in D&D3. I changed same spells: no resurrections, nerfed status-effect-removals (because disease should be a serious and long-lasting problem, not something to cure with 2 level spell), some spell descriptions from AD&D2 (for example Insect Plague in D&D5 is boring damage-dealing spell without additional effects). I have weakened the resting rules (in general players only receive 1/2 or 1/3 of HP in comparison to official ruleset + resting is impossible in many situations; for example in wilderness you have to find a shelter, a water etc. so survival skills are important – as well as surgery skills). I have introduced wounding rules (less than 50% HP and you starting to get some serious penalties to stats + you are risking an injury like broken leg, severed hand etc.). And that’s it. It's one page of house rules to make the system functional. In a comparison: I need a 20 pages long manual of house-rules to make D&D3 barrable.
And ye, I do not like high level adventures anyway. Most of my campaigns are in 4-13 level range. Above it everything starts to look stupid.
I also do not care about quality of any extra materials. For now I’m using Players Handbook and Monsters Manual from D&D5 + Campaign Setting from AD&D2 ant that’s it, I have no need nor will to buy anything else. From the very beginnings of my RPG adventures I was convinced that D&D was one big fraud and theft, aimed at unimaginative suckers. What’s the reason to buy all those shitty books? In case of all my favorite RPG systems (Warhammer 1. ed., Monastyr, Neuroshima) you really need only one books, containing everything: ruleset, spell book, bestiary, some advices for DM, a brief description of the world. It’s enough, really. After all RPGs are games about imagination. As a DM, I prefer to fill the gaps and blank spaces with my own ideas, rather than look for answers in 100 books. I do not need 50 pages of battle maneuvers and modifiers because it’s no time for all those mathematics in a heat of battle. I do not need a separate manual about every country in the world; one paragraph of a general description is all I need.
Cryomancer
Arcane
About hp IMO should be something like
- Lv 1 to 4 = d12/d10/d8/d6/d4/wathever + CON mod
- lv 5 to 9 = ( d12/d10/d8/d6/d4/wathever WITH NO con mod ) / 2 rounded up
- Lv 10 and up = + 2 hp to martial classes, + 1 to arcane and divine casters/thieves roll a D2.
To be honest I do not understand most of this D&D5 critics. Sure, it's not a perfect system (I prefer, for example, Warhammer) but it's functional and definitely better than D&D3. Ye, I have changed my mind – a few months ago I had other opinion.
I also do not understand all those considerations about fighting. Typically during 10-12 hour PnP meeting we have 3 fights max (something at the very start, something in the middle to make a break from RP, and a boss fight in the end; the latter can usually be resolved by means other than combat; most of the meeting is RP and problem solving, it’s RPG, not a board game). So it is not as important part.
As a DM I have introduced a bunch of house-rules, but far less than in D&D3. I changed same spells: no resurrections, nerfed status-effect-removals (because disease should be a serious and long-lasting problem, not something to cure with 2 level spell), some spell descriptions from AD&D2 (for example Insect Plague in D&D5 is boring damage-dealing spell without additional effects). I have weakened the resting rules (in general players only receive 1/2 or 1/3 of HP in comparison to official ruleset + resting is impossible in many situations; for example in wilderness you have to find a shelter, a water etc. so survival skills are important – as well as surgery skills). I have introduced wounding rules (less than 50% HP and you starting to get some serious penalties to stats + you are risking an injury like broken leg, severed hand etc.). And that’s it. It's one page of house rules to make the system functional. In a comparison: I need a 20 pages long manual of house-rules to make D&D3 barrable.
And ye, I do not like high level adventures anyway. Most of my campaigns are in 4-13 level range. Above it everything starts to look stupid.
I also do not care about quality of any extra materials. For now I’m using Players Handbook and Monsters Manual from D&D5 + Campaign Setting from AD&D2 ant that’s it, I have no need nor will to buy anything else. From the very beginnings of my RPG adventures I was convinced that D&D was one big fraud and theft, aimed at unimaginative suckers. What’s the reason to buy all those shitty books? In case of all my favorite RPG systems (Warhammer 1. ed., Monastyr, Neuroshima) you really need only one books, containing everything: ruleset, spell book, bestiary, some advices for DM, a brief description of the world. It’s enough, really. After all RPGs are games about imagination. As a DM, I prefer to fill the gaps and blank spaces with my own ideas, rather than look for answers in 100 books. I do not need 50 pages of battle maneuvers and modifiers because it’s no time for all those mathematics in a heat of battle. I do not need a separate manual about every country in the world; one paragraph of a general description is all I need.
Well, that's not a matter of WFRP vs D&D, it's more about comparing the market in the 80s with that of 2020. Modern editions of WFRP don't include a full world guide, bestiary, etc.. Indeed the value of 1e rulebook was incredible (even included a pretty fun yet straightforward adventure, the Oldenhaller Contract)
Link it or I call bullshit.
I think it would be a mistake to remove HP from D&D. I appreciate and have enjoyed alternative systems like Vampire 2nd ed "Health Levels" for realism, or WFRP bounded Wounds system, but HP is pretty much one of the identity cornerstones of D&D. IF you want to remove HP or spell slots or classes, then you're making a different system. Which is fine, they should probably do that and compete with themselves with a brand new game, but IMO HP is what most D&D players want. Just don't fucking inflate it to Weimar Republic levels. With 4e at least they tried, nowhere near enough but at least it meant they acknowledged a problem; then with 5e they made it worse than in any other edition, because you have more HP than in 3e, and damage has been reduced, plus now there's almost no other way to kill enemies (there's not even coup-de-grace!)
Kliwer
Savant
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2018
- Messages
- 216
How? These are all handwritten notes taking up an entire binder. Plus in Polish.
Don't tell me photography is one of your forbidden spell schools?
Look, I don't care one bit about what your house rules are, I just can't believe you (or anyone) would write 20 pages of them. You could write a whole RPG system of your own in 20 pages. :D
Cryomancer
Arcane
20 pages of homebrew rule can exist IF you wanna a complete different game than the original. For eg, if you wanna adapt 5e to be played in a Conan setting where magic is far rarer and a dangerous outsider force, magical items extremely rare, and the campaign will be mostly on deserts where survival is harsh, you will have to re write the prices of all magic items, loot table of all monsters, and how magic works. Eg - banning all caster classes who aren't clerics and warlocks and writing rules to how you become a warlock in the first place and how you level up as a warlock, demanding complex rituals sacrificing gold, slaves and other things to your patron TEACH magic to you, or your own lifeforce and having lower con and wis. Making spells with a chance of fail and for eg, a fireball blowing up in your hand and banning create food & water spells would be necessary. Ahh races would need to be changed. Instead of elves, humans(...) you will have Stygians, Hiperboreans(...)
But again, we are trying to make a high fantasy rulesystem fits a rulesystem to "simulate" a completely different world.
But again, we are trying to make a high fantasy rulesystem fits a rulesystem to "simulate" a completely different world.
Hoaxmetal
Arcane
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2009
- Messages
- 9,161
Have you heard about modders? It'll blow your mind.
PapaPetro
Guest
Maybe bring the HP levels back to low AD&D 2ed numbers, return save-or-die stuff, but make death cheaper by offering more affordable lower level options to rez?
Alex
Arcane
What are you talking about, 20 pages of house rule for just about any system is just getting started.
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