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Jagged Alliance The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming

Ol' Willy

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That is like saying that RPGs are dominated by Bethesda. I do not think that this is the level of the discussion here.
Not at all. Talking about football, 5% of monocled individuals play Football Manager, 15% of dissidents play PES and 80% are all in for a new FIFA every year. I guess it's even worse for NBA, NHL and other major sports.
 

pidstuff

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Isn't RTS in an even worse state than RPGs? The fans of the genre only seem to talk about the old games from Dune 2 or the first WarCraft up to the first Company of Heroes. I don't think they're even excited for Iron Harvest either.
 

JarlFrank

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Please define real RPGs
Roleplaying games that are not made in Japan. Simple.

Thanks for playing. Could you do me a favor and also define roleplaying games

Games where you
a) create a character
b) determine your character's development path by allocating stat points on level up
c) use that character (or party of characters) to interact with the gameworld

In some western RPGs, one of these is missing, like games where you get a fixed character instead of choosing your own (Planescape Torment, Gorasul, etc) but even then you get to determine your character's development yourself. Classic D&D doesn't give you much in the way of character development (fighters for example just get bonus THAC0 and HP and saving throws, no feats to select or skill points to distribute) but every D&D game out there lets you create your own party. And whenever you interact with the world, it's player-driven too. Dialogue with NPCs in western RPGs is either based on typing in keywords or choosing a response from a list. Some RPGs include adventure game style inventory puzzles, riddles where you have to type in the answer, etc etc. Some games like Ultima VII and the Elder Scrolls games even let you toy around with every single item in the game world, making it all interactive.

Meanwhile JRPGs lack all of these features most of the time. You don't create a character, you play a fixed character whose name, personality, character class and abilities are all pre-determined. Often, you don't even get to make choices during levelup: the bonuses your characters get on levelup are also pre-determined. There is no player choice in what character you want to play or how to develop him or her. It's fully pre-determined and linear. Furthermore, world interaction tends to be hands-off too. Where in western RPGs dialogues either use keywords or dialog trees, in JRPGs they're presented as cutscenes with no player input. Interacting with NPCs is wholly non-interactive. Environmental interactions are also rare, while western RPGs moved further and further into allowing the player to do things with the environment (Ultima VII and Elder Scrolls, as mentioned above; but also Fallout where you can sometimes use your skills on objects in the world, like using repair on a well), JRPGs tend to present intricately designed cities where none of the cool objects on display can be interacted with. It's completely static. You can look, but you can't touch.

That's pretty much the exact opposite of what RPGs should be. RPGs developed from pen and paper systems, where the focus has always been on player choice and player-driven gameplay. YOU create the character you want to play, YOU develop that character in the direction you want to, and YOU make the choices you want to when the DM confronts you with a situation.
 
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Isn't RTS in an even worse state than RPGs? The fans of the genre only seem to talk about the old games from Dune 2 or the first WarCraft up to the first Company of Heroes. I don't think they're even excited for Iron Harvest either.

Sadly, yes. Modifications of existing RTS games and custom maps are things that make RTS games *more or less* playable even up to this day - and i myself really play stuff like Dawn of Tiberium Age, Warzone over vanilla C&C: Tiberian Sun, for example. And yes, mods for even Dune 2K are pretty fun and playable.

Here also OpenRA engine allowing for great mod / map making with pretty strong online community, as far as it can go now... And remakes of already existing RTS games of different quality...

Nobody really expect revival of RTS genre any time soon - but genre is not dead *completely*, by amount of active and dedicated players, at least.
 
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Ahh, interesting in this regard. Been always thinking about some other genres that are more popular in Japanese domestic market.
And while i respect some JRPG's and love of Japanese developers in regard to oldest Might & Magic's / Wizardry's - i do not see them too different to a medium of RPG's, in general. Wonder if JRPG's still be as popular in Japan after 10 years...

There aren't any real contenders currently. Shooters are incredibly niche in Japan and the concept of aiming with a mouse is relatively foreign. Turn based strategy is already fused with JRPGs in the SRPG. RTS never existed in the east and are dead in the west. The Japanese aren't terribly interested in sports games, or sport in general, apart from party games.
Yakuza style games might develop further and shed their rpg elements in favor of open world GTA style games with the success of Ghost of Tsushima, but that is rather unlikely, as the newest Yakuza will be a turn based rpg.


It's been popular since Wizardry was released there. It's not going to stop anytime soon.

Ever since they got their hands on bootleg copies of Ultima 1 really. They got Wizardry a little later in 1985, and it always had a lesser influence than Ultima, which spawned Dragon Quest (Warrior) 1.

Yakuza style games? You mean Beat 'em Ups? Yakuza, at least up until the most recent one, was a beat em up series. It was a modern 3D take on River City Ransom, and came in a little wave a other beat 'em ups and fully 3D fight games at seemed inspired by wrestling games...the first of that group being Def Jam Fight For NY from wrestling developer AKI. If any other Japanese developers decide to toss their hat back into that kind of more classic beat 'em up, I'd count on them also having some form of unlockable moves and light RPG elements.
 
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Yakuza style games? You mean Beat 'em Ups? Yakuza, at least up until the most recent one, was a beat em up series. It was a modern 3D take on River City Ransom, and came in a little wave a other beat 'em ups and fully 3D fight games at seemed inspired by wrestling games...the first of that group being Def Jam Fight For NY from wrestling developer AKI. If any other Japanese developers decide to toss their hat back into that kind of more classic beat 'em up, I'd count on them also having some form of unlockable moves and light RPG elements.

For some bizarre reason a large part of the JRPG crowd considers the Yakuza series to be JRPGs. But I am talking more from the role of Yakuza as a heir to the Shenmue series. A relatively unfocussed semi-open world. Tons of side content and minigames, a large cast and generally a lot of freedom. Those could hypothetically be meshed with the standard triple AAA recipe, that is now catching on in Japan for the first time ever with Ghost of Tsushima, to form a new genre that is not quite western AAA game, not quite JRPG. But that is pretty much the only genre capable of ursurping the JRPG in Japan currently. Maybe the Gacha game aswell lol.


a) create a character
b) determine your character's development path by allocating stat points on level up

Have you ever played a JRPG in your life? Half of them let you create the characters freely, most of them give you a degree of control over your levelups. A degree of control that tends to be larger than in CRPGs, if I level up in Fallout/Baldurs Gate/Divinity you just get a bunch of points you dump into small arms/longsword or large sword/Strength. Yes there are exceptions and games where levelling up genuinly gives you a lot of options like PF:KM, but they do not lack behind the JRPG in frequency of appearance.

c) use that character (or party of characters) to interact with the gameworld

This is however one of the things that genuinly differentiate eastern and western rpgs, eastern rpgs do not tend to have any non combat skills or class applications beyond combat. There are exceptions, but sadly you never see a negotiate skill in a JRPG for example.
 

Viata

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always had a lesser influence than Ultima
That is not really true. Both games have more or so the same influence, however, Wizardry has a higher influence so much that the creator of Dragon Quest said he wanted to make a easier version of Wizardry and his game before DQ, The Portopia Serial Murder Case, features a first person dungeon that he himself said is based on Wizardry, including a part that has the words "Monster surprised you" throw at you in the japanese version of the game. It's also why there is way more Wizardry clones in Japan than Ultima ones. There is a manga that is supposed to tell the history of how Dragon Quest came to be created.
These are pages that Wizardry appears or is mentioned:
hyddpse.png

-It's Wizardry.
-Ooohh. That is the rumored Wizardry?
4AlHbXb.png

-Nakamura, Wizardry looks amazing, right?
-Horii, some day I want to make a game better than Wizardry.
MBv6w9P.png

-Yuji Horii(creator of DQ) bought an Apple ][ and was absorbed in playing Wizardry
Gy68vqJ.png

-I bought an Apple last October and been playing Wizardry all the time. It's so amazing and interesting.
pRIqUBQ.png

*text is about how rpg is different from shooters and action games
LfvnRZ8.png

zSPC7oi.png


Now for Ultima:
LfvnRZ8.png

zSPC7oi.png


Keep in mind that Ultima was only mentioned when they were doing the different window(battle mode and overview) and how some images of the design looked a lot like Wizardry until windows were introduced:
7JUxvhl.png

Manga also says that Portopia was ported to NES/Famicon to easy Japanese teenagers into playing a more heavy-based text game like RPG, before they could make their own RPG.
So it's obvious which game had a more influence in JRPG.
 

Viata

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JarlFrank is right, the image below gives a better representation of the difference between JRPG and RPG:
7VAyO61.png

He also has only played the most hyped JRPG(if any) and has not played something like FF1 or FF3(that allows you to create your own party, 3 even allow for multi-classing, 5 does it better though) or DQ3(that ignoring the main hero that has a class Hero by default, also allows you to create your own party).
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
a) create a character
b) determine your character's development path by allocating stat points on level up

Have you ever played a JRPG in your life?

I played Chrono Trigger :M

I also saw enough videos on Youtube about Final Fantasy VII and similar RPGs where you have a fixed protagonist and everything is linear and boring and non-interactive and my motivation to give any of those a shot is far below zero, just the thought of going through one of these makes me feel frustrated, especially since cutscenes tend to be unskippable. The only JRPGs I can stomach are SRPGs, but those are pretty much considered to be a wholly different genre.

c) use that character (or party of characters) to interact with the gameworld

This is however one of the things that genuinly differentiate eastern and western rpgs, eastern rpgs do not tend to have any non combat skills or class applications beyond combat. There are exceptions, but sadly you never see a negotiate skill in a JRPG for example.

Yeah this is why I can't get into them at all. I don't mind RPGs focused entirely on the combat, blobbers like Wizardry and Might and Magic are fun to go through, as are story-light combat-focused RPGs like ToEE or Icewind Dale.
The issue with JRPGs is that they dump so much bullshit on you that makes me feel frustrated and bored and drains my patience, like those incredibly lengthy dialogues where they type out paragraph over paragraph of insignificant banter letter by letter (rather than displaying the whole text at once like in western RPGs, so you can skim through it more quickly), and you don't even get to make your own dialogue choices, you just have to sit through minutes of inane back and forth. The genre is called Role Playing Game but JRPGs put so much shit in there that consists of not playing, just watching.
 

Storyfag

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Isn't RTS in an even worse state than RPGs? The fans of the genre only seem to talk about the old games from Dune 2 or the first WarCraft up to the first Company of Heroes. I don't think they're even excited for Iron Harvest either.
RTS as a genre is way past its heyday and I doubt that it'll ever recover.

Of course it will. You can't kill the Messiah!
 
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Thac0

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I played Chrono Trigger :M

I also saw enough videos on Youtube about Final Fantasy VII and similar RPGs where you have a fixed protagonist and everything is linear and boring and non-interactive and my motivation to give any of those a shot is far below zero, just the thought of going through one of these makes me feel frustrated, especially since cutscenes tend to be unskippable. The only JRPGs I can stomach are SRPGs, but those are pretty much considered to be a wholly different genre.

That explains a lot actually.
Chrono Trigger is an odd game, as it is incredibly short and light on rpg mechanics. My cat could finish that, you actually have zero control over character progression. Its good for different reasons.
FF VII is a JRPG made for Americans back when the Japanese thought that all Americans have brain damage. It is one of the easiest JRPGs aswell.
Look up some gameplay of Shin Megami Tensei 3 or 4, Etrian Odyssey, Labyrinth of Refrain, Dragon Quest 3 or 11 for a different perspective.

like those incredibly lengthy dialogues where they type out paragraph over paragraph of insignificant banter letter by letter (rather than displaying the whole text at once like in western RPGs, so you can skim through it more quickly), and you don't even get to make your own dialogue choices, you just have to sit through minutes of inane back and forth.

A lot of JRPGs dont feature voice acting, so you can just burn through that garbage with you have good reading comprehension. Also most feature a skip dialogue option and an option to review the entire dialogue in written form after skipping. So that is no biggie for me. I can see why no noncombat skills would be a dealbreaker for some tho.

JarlFrank is right, the image below gives a better representation of the difference between JRPG and RPG:
7VAyO61.png

He also has only played the most hyped JRPG(if any) and has not played something like FF1 or FF3(that allows you to create your own party, 3 even allow for multi-classing, 5 does it better though) or DQ3(that ignoring the main hero that has a class Hero by default, also allows you to create your own party).

I want to rate this seven different buttons at once,
rating_brofist.png
,
rating_agenda.png
,
rating_lulz.gif
,
rating_salute.gif
,
edgy.png
,
artistic.png
and
coofcoof.png
clear.png
clear.png
. What do I choose?
 

Jvegi

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There are only three RPGs that can reasonably be put into a top 10 all-time GAMES list without being laughed, booed and egged off-stage. They are:

* Jagged Alliance 2
* Fallout
* Deus Ex
You once again forgot about Gothic 1/2. I don't know why you keep doing that.

Weren't you going to cover Gothic on your blog? Am I remembering that right? How's it coming along?
 
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Viata

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FF VII is a JRPG made for Americans back when the Japanese thought that all Americans have brain damage. It is one of the easiest JRPGs aswell.
This is a lie, why people keep saying this? When it is obvious that JRPG are based on harder CRPG made by americans, why would someone ever think this? VII is shit for a lot of reason, but not this one.
 

Latro

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The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming
Yeah, that's why the entire world can't stop talking about Dark Souls. Fucking RPGs, nobody cares about them.
3rd person action games; there's a reason why dork souls is 10000x more popular than king's field. I will not deny they are RPGs, but they are not popular because they are RPGs.
 
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Latro

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Games where you
a) create a character
b) determine your character's development path by allocating stat points on level up
c) use that character (or party of characters) to interact with the gameworld
Horse-shit. The absolute crux of RPGs are the combat, once again. Under this idiotic definition JRPGs aren't RPGs but Disco Elysium is. I realize JRPGs are hated here, but it's pure idiocy to shape the definition around a way that excludes an entire traditional RPG genre. You're telling me Disco Elysium is an RPG but Dragon Quest isn't?
I also saw enough videos on Youtube about Final Fantasy VII and similar RPGs where you have a fixed protagonist and everything is linear and boring and non-interactive and my motivation to give any of those a shot is far below zero, just the thought of going through one of these makes me feel frustrated, especially since cutscenes tend to be unskippable.
OK, which means you are simply biased and your definition of RPG must be safely discarded before it infects the minds of poor, dork souls.
 
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Thac0

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FF VII is a JRPG made for Americans back when the Japanese thought that all Americans have brain damage. It is one of the easiest JRPGs aswell.
This is a lie, why people keep saying this? When it is obvious that JRPG are based on harder CRPG made by americans, why would someone ever think this? VII is shit for a lot of reason, but not this one.

Because there is precedence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Mystic_Quest

FFVII is the first square game where an American branch in Square Enix LA was involved and it catered specifically to the American market. It's not a huge leap to see that as a reason for the much lower difficulty compared to SNES FF aswell.

I actually don't think FFVII is shit, I gave a short write up in the Final Fantasy Tier list thread.
 

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