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Jagged Alliance The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming

Vatnik Wumao
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Trick question: does pure talker run with 0 kills turn Age of Decadence into a non-RPG? Does pacifist run of Fallout 1/Arcanum/Sonora turn them into a non-RPGs?

Does hitting someone's head with a chessboard make chess martial arts?
Bad analogy since the pure talker run is a viable strategy by the game's own rules. So yeah, the chessboard could theoretically be part of a martial art just as it is part of chess.
 

Ol' Willy

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No because every one of those examples has almost inevitable combat as part of its core design.
AoD pure talker could be finished with 0 kills easily. No forced combat.

Thing is, combat is one of the main gameplay elements of almost any given RPG, taking at least more than a half of the playtime as a rule. So, if someone wants to make combatless RPG, he has to come up with an alternative to combat. What could be an alternative to combat? What allows for so much builds, variation, chance, replayablitiy?
 
Vatnik Wumao
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Trick question: does pure talker run with 0 kills turn Age of Decadence into a non-RPG? Does pacifist run of Fallout 1/Arcanum/Sonora turn them into a non-RPGs?

Does hitting someone's head with a chessboard make chess martial arts?
It becomes one if I'm losing the game.
:M
kvDc3J8.jpg
 
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Thac0

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Thing is, combat is one of the main gameplay elements of almost any given RPG, taking at least more than a half of the playtime as a rule. So, if someone wants to make combatless RPG, he has to come up with an alternative to combat. What could be an alternative to combat? What allows for so much builds, variation, chance, replayablitiy?

Titan Outpost answers you ressource managment here. You control a small starbase and you need to juggle your time, food and fuel to not turn into a lifeless husk on the surface on one of the most hostile environments.
(shoutout to MF for making the best combatless indie rpg up to date)

Disco Elysium answers you skillchecks, create a much more complex system of rolling for success than average with tons of conditional modifiers and a ridiculously large array of noncombat skills which are all frequently checked.

I still don't think that are all possible ways to make a noncombat rpg, but the problem is that noncombat rpg is a very experimental concoction that appals a lot of players.
The makers of Beautifull Desolation took massive sales damage by just having a classical adventure game look like an rpg.
 

Serus

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Many people claim falsely that JA2 is not a crpg but not a single one supported this claim. So i ask, why JA2 that has more elements typically found in an average crpg than many of games from the codex top is not one. I would really like to know. A no, the meme about the "laptop guy" won't do.
In addition i'd like to know if Pathinder: Kingmaker is a crpg. Is it? Also the majority of games labelled as crpgs made before 1995. Are they crpgs?
 

cruelio

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Always has been.

There are only three RPGs that can reasonably be put into a top 10 all-time GAMES list without being laughed, booed and egged off-stage. They are:

* Jagged Alliance 2
* Fallout
* Deus Ex

These three immortal masterpieces approach perfection even though they are tremendously ambitious. As such, they would not look out of place in a top 10 that included the likes of Civilization, X-COM and Master of Orion.

Indeed, strategy is so damn strong, and such a TITAN of gaming, that we could only fit one of those three RPGs in. And it would HAVE to be Jagged Alliance 2. Because it's 10 times more complex than the other two and has actually got a strategy component, not just tactical and role-playing components. The fact that it seamlessly integrates these components = God-tier in gaming.

Take the top-ranked Codex RPG, Planescape: Torment. Now, put it in a top 10 with DOOM. Everyone'd be like, "What? Get that OUT". Because it's mostly just words.

Thank you for reading, and have a lovely day.
Jagged Alliance 2 the game where you pile your mercs into a building, fire a gun into the wall, and then shoot the enemy soldiers as they run to you one by one until the map is empty. Truly one of the top 10 games of all time.
 

Lady_Error

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Thing is, combat is one of the main gameplay elements of almost any given RPG, taking at least more than a half of the playtime as a rule. So, if someone wants to make combatless RPG, he has to come up with an alternative to combat. What could be an alternative to combat? What allows for so much builds, variation, chance, replayablitiy?

The replayability is not that high with RPG's anyway, at least compared to some strategy games.
 

Serus

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There are only three RPGs that can reasonably be put into a top 10 all-time GAMES list without being laughed, booed and egged off-stage. They are:

* Jagged Alliance 2
* Fallout
* Deus Ex

These three immortal masterpieces approach perfection even though they are tremendously ambitious. As such, they would not look out of place in a top 10 that included the likes of Civilization, X-COM and Master of Orion.

Indeed, strategy is so damn strong, and such a TITAN of gaming, that we could only fit one of those three RPGs in. And it would HAVE to be Jagged Alliance 2. Because it's 10 times more complex than the other two and has actually got a strategy component, not just tactical and role-playing components. The fact that it seamlessly integrates these components = God-tier in gaming.

Take the top-ranked Codex RPG, Planescape: Torment. Now, put it in a top 10 with DOOM. Everyone'd be like, "What? Get that OUT". Because it's mostly just words.

Thank you for reading, and have a lovely day.
Jagged Alliance 2 the game where you pile your mercs into a building, fire a gun into the wall, and then shoot the enemy soldiers as they run to you one by one until the map is empty. Truly one of the top 10 games of all time.
Because no other crpgs have similar shortcomings in their systems. Including ones that are highly regarded here. Yes, that must be it.
Sorry, but this argument doesn't hold water.
 

Jvegi

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Jagged Alliance 2 the game where you pile your mercs into a building, fire a gun into the wall, and then shoot the enemy soldiers as they run to you one by one until the map is empty. Truly one of the top 10 games of all time.
Is that true? You can do that in Desperados and it's really hard to resist. Basically broke the game for me. I'd like to get into JA2, but this news makes it less likely.

The 'what is and what is not' discussion is rather silly. Genres themselves don't exist, they're only components of a subjective system of classification. There is no higher truth to be found here. No objective standard to adhere to.
 
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Thac0

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Many people claim falsely that JA2 is not a crpg but not a single one supported this claim. So i ask, why JA2 that has more elements typically found in an average crpg than many of games from the codex top is not one. I would really like to know. A no, the meme about the "laptop guy" won't do.

For me the scale is important. Stellaris has many elements aswell which would make it rpg, however you do not control an adventuring party, you control an empire. Same for Battle Brothers, it is almost a sandbox rpg, but you control a warband, not a party.
In JA the average amount of mercenaries you boss around over the course of a playthrough is much greater than in any classical party based rpg, making it firmly a tactics game.
I struggle to give a clear number here, but just from a gut feeling I would say if the game expects you to use less than 10 units over the course of the entire game in a normal run it's more rpg than tactics.


Pathinder: Kingmaker is a crpg.

Yes

majority of games labelled as crpgs made before 1995

Give names, probably yes
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Always has been.

There are only three RPGs that can reasonably be put into a top 10 all-time GAMES list without being laughed, booed and egged off-stage. They are:

* Jagged Alliance 2
* Fallout
* Deus Ex

These three immortal masterpieces approach perfection even though they are tremendously ambitious. As such, they would not look out of place in a top 10 that included the likes of Civilization, X-COM and Master of Orion.

Indeed, strategy is so damn strong, and such a TITAN of gaming, that we could only fit one of those three RPGs in. And it would HAVE to be Jagged Alliance 2. Because it's 10 times more complex than the other two and has actually got a strategy component, not just tactical and role-playing components. The fact that it seamlessly integrates these components = God-tier in gaming.

Take the top-ranked Codex RPG, Planescape: Torment. Now, put it in a top 10 with DOOM. Everyone'd be like, "What? Get that OUT". Because it's mostly just words.

Thank you for reading, and have a lovely day.
Jagged Alliance 2 the game where you pile your mercs into a building, fire a gun into the wall, and then shoot the enemy soldiers as they run to you one by one until the map is empty. Truly one of the top 10 games of all time.
Because no other crpgs have similar shortcomings in their systems. Including ones that are highly regarded here. Yes, that must be it.
Sorry, but this argument doesn't hold water.
Yes it does. When the game is presented as an "immortal masterpiece" (this is a direct quote) that is far beyond any other top RPG then justifying the shitty part by saying "other games do that do" doesn't really work.
 
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aweigh

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"Skill-checks" are not unique to RPGs nor are they a replacement for combat and exploration. To think so is very reductionist. If you remove the combat from an RPG it becomes something else.

I find this modern need to remove combat from RPGs to be suspicious and agenda-driven; why do people want this and where are they coming from? I smell a rat, and it isn't rat-diplomacy.
 

Tse Tse Fly

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What's an FPS? It's the combat. What's a fighting game? It's the combat. What's a tactics game? It's the combat. Are fps and fighting and tactics games rpgs now? Combat is simply a type of gameplay activity which employs the aspects and mechanics specific to rpgs (like stats affecting everything etc), a medium through which the quality of being an rpg is expressed, but who said it has to be the only way? In the case of fighting games - yes, absolutely, you can't have a fighting game which hasn't you beating up someone, but for an rpg? IMO, calling a game non-rpg simply because it hasn't combat is as arbitrary as calling a game non-rpg because it hasn't character creation/development.
 

Butter

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What's an FPS? It's the combat. What's a fighting game? It's the combat. What's a tactics game? It's the combat. Are fps and fighting and tactics games rpgs now? Combat is simply a type of gameplay activity which employs the aspects and mechanics specific to rpgs (like stats affecting everything etc), a medium through which the quality of being an rpg is expressed, but who said it has to be the only way? In the case of fighting games - yes, absolutely, you can't have a fighting game which hasn't you beating up someone, but for an rpg? IMO, calling a game non-rpg simply because it hasn't combat is as arbitrary as calling a game non-rpg because it hasn't character creation/development.
Except character creation/development is actually an essential component of an RPG. Every video game with combat has numbers behind the scene that determine how much damage characters do, how much health they have, how fast they can move, etc. It obviously can't be an RPG unless the player has some ability to manipulate or define those numbers.
 

Jvegi

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It obviously can't be an RPG unless the player has some ability to manipulate or define those numbers.
In FPS games you can define numbers by changing a weapon and manipulate them by hitting different body parts. Aiming for smaller body parts also influences the chance to hit.
 

Tse Tse Fly

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What's an FPS? It's the combat. What's a fighting game? It's the combat. What's a tactics game? It's the combat. Are fps and fighting and tactics games rpgs now? Combat is simply a type of gameplay activity which employs the aspects and mechanics specific to rpgs (like stats affecting everything etc), a medium through which the quality of being an rpg is expressed, but who said it has to be the only way? In the case of fighting games - yes, absolutely, you can't have a fighting game which hasn't you beating up someone, but for an rpg? IMO, calling a game non-rpg simply because it hasn't combat is as arbitrary as calling a game non-rpg because it hasn't character creation/development.
Except character creation/development is actually an essential component of an RPG. Every video game with combat has numbers behind the scene that determine how much damage characters do, how much health they have, how fast they can move, etc. It obviously can't be an RPG unless the player has some ability to manipulate or define those numbers.
Well I agree with this (not sure why you are replying to me though), stats must not be some hidden program variables governing the operation of the game and its actors, the player has to have an ability to manipulate and analyze them for a game to be an rpg. I also would avoid claiming that any *single* quality (for example the quality of having combat) can be the defining aspect of a genre, rather it should be a set or complex of qualities (which I'm too lazy to specify at this moment).
 
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barghwata

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"Skill-checks" are not unique to RPGs nor are they a replacement for combat and exploration.

Skill checks are much much more unique to RPGs then something as vague as "combat and exploration". I don't get it, you claim that you want to gatekeep the genre to keep it from becoming diluted and meaningless while simutaneously claiming that some of its most important aspects (character creation, stat based skills and skill tests etc...) aren't actually that important, ironically in doing so you make the genre alot more diluted, alot of games that are heavy with combat and exploration can be considered RPGs at that point, despite having little to no actual roleplaying.

In FPS games you can define numbers by changing a weapon and manipulate them by hitting different body parts. Aiming for smaller body parts also influences the chance to hit.

Nah, in an RPG those numerical values have to be permanently attached to your character and not to some item or weapon, and those numbers have to be the defining factor of what actions your character can or cannot perform.
 

Butter

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Well I agree with this (not sure why you are replying to me though), stats must not to be some hidden program variables governing the operation of the game and its actors, the player has to have an ability to manipulate and analyze them for a game to be an rpg. I also would avoid claiming that any *single* quality (for example the quality of having combat) can be the defining aspect of a genre, rather it should be a set or complex of qualities (which I'm too lazy to specify at this moment).
I replied to you because I disagreed with your particular example. I also think you need more than a single criteria to define an RPG (or at least a more exclusive criteria), and combat isn't a necessary component. Thac0 gave the example of Titan Outpost, which is absolutely an RPG without a combat system.
 

cruelio

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Jagged Alliance 2 the game where you pile your mercs into a building, fire a gun into the wall, and then shoot the enemy soldiers as they run to you one by one until the map is empty. Truly one of the top 10 games of all time.
Is that true? You can do that in Desperados and it's really hard to resist. Basically broke the game for me. I'd like to get into JA2, but this news makes it less likely.
It's such a huge game breaking problem for JA2 that the modding community had to come up with weird workarounds (like making it cost more movement for the ai to move across bodies so the ai will pick different paths) to get around it. It's laughable to call JA2 a top ten game of all time because of how brain dead and exploitable the enemy AI is.
 
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aweigh

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I don't get it, you claim that you want to gatekeep the genre to keep it from becoming diluted and meaningless while simutaneously claiming that some of its most important aspects (character creation, stat based skills and skill tests etc...) aren't actually that important

I never made any such claims, barghwata .

EDIT: Here's some stuff I've said before about RPGs from one of the better threads about this, I'll also be quoting Ventidius right afterwards as I feel he expressed these thoughts the best. Taken from this thread: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/has-c-c-become-the-cancer-of-rpgs.128457/page-4#post-6211099

aweigh said:
Yes. To me the core tenets of RPG design are something like:

- Character development and advancement (includes party building, classes, skillsets, attributes, levelling, spell systems, root of player agency).

- Itemization and Power Curve (includes encounter design, overall resource management, determines the general feeling of enjoyment found in the progression systems; player psychology and player attrition).

- Exploration, (level and area design, overall game challenge, many aesthetic disciplines like atmosphere, and general game writing).

There is inherent overlap in all of these 3 areas, obviously, and the best outcome is when all 3 lead into each other organically. I'd also like to add that Exploration has "general game writing" parenthesized because that's mostly how a story is framed for the player in coherence with the plot, or overall narrative.

A really basic example: you have 1 big castle in a somewhat large area, and there are 2 caves and 3 towns. there should be things (people, objects, something) in each one of those places that can potentially lead the player to each of the other areas, and additionally have that be coherent. Say you go into a cave and find something that belongs to someone, then you should also be able to meet that person beforehand and they can clue you into the fact that they are looking for something. But the real part, the real detail, is to make that little thing feel like it could happen in the overall "story", or game world; if it's a a ring then perhaps that person needs the ring in order to make a marriage proposal. Make it make sense.

Also the player should be incentivized to explore places on impulse in the first place, like how F: NV has all Points of Interest visible on the horizon, the Ranger Statues shine at night and draw the eye, as does the Strip, etc). I know this is a really crude example and I apologize, I just don't feel like drawing up something more complex right now. I just wrote that to point out how "Exploration" can encapsulate more esoteric aspects that tie into the game writing, level design, area design, itemization, the power curve (maybe the enemies are rough, maybe if you go by day it is easier? maybe harder at night?), etc.

Note that nowhere did I make a mention of including branching story states or paths. That shit is nice but I don't consider it necessary for an RPG, nor do I think it adds "replay value". TBH, I might even go so far as to say it's actually a waste of dev-time in the majority of cases and it will force the sacrifice of other more essential and material elements. Real replay value is in making the game have good overall gameplay, and for that you need the mechanical foundation to be solid, basically the 3 bullet-points above, since everything else stems from it.

I wanted to add that Exploration also consists of what you can physically do as well, such as finding secret doors, hidden items, new avenues or pathways, and obviously: navigating a maze. The spatial aspect, the physical aspects, these are also a core part of the experience. I felt the need to add this because maybe it wasn't clear. Want to break down this door? Well, do you have Strength for it? Want to climb a mountain? Etc. It doesn't have to be as granular as that, though. For example, Wizardry 1 accomplishes all of the things in the three tenets I outlined above, and in many ways to much better and more successful degrees than modern RPGs do.

I've always believed abstraction > immersion. It's like those people who refuse to play an RPG if it has random encounters, but will play anything that has "realistic encounters where you can see the enemies on the field". That's an argument I've had one too many times and it ALWAYS leaves me triggered.

Or how people refuse to play anything where you can't see your character because it's not immersive enough if you can't see them, etc. People simply can't put 2 and 2 together, that a random encounter is an abstraction of what's happening in the game world; if you enter a fortress and get a random encounter, that is an abstraction meant to represent patrolling guards. It's up the devs to make the game make sense, to be coherent, and it's not the fault of random encounters if they do it wrong. Abstraction is the bread and butter of video games, and specifically of RPGs. I believe simulation elements only bog gameplay down.

Branching paths or mutually-exclusive content is not C&C. If it was, then you can just go play a Visual Novel and get all the C&C you want, or go play one of those games by David Cage, those Beyond Heavy Rain pieces of shit.

God, it's such a dead meme at this point. Half the people who talk about C&C don't even know what it is they are talking about, or what it is they want. Being able to pick between two different story states is not a meaningful player choice; it has to affect the way the game plays. This is why "real C&C" is usually comprised of different character build and conflict resolution integration.

(This is why The Witcher games don't feature any real C&C).

Good example of a game with "real C&C", off the top of my head, would probably be Deus Ex 1. Traditionally we used to use another word for C&C back in the day, it was "gameplay". The game mechanics need to inform the choices, and the consequences needs to inform the gameplay.

There is definitely room for melding more narrative or plot-focused integration with the C&C meme, of course, I think Arcanum is one game that did it well enough, or at least enough so that I remember a few moments of going "huh, that's cool", because the the game's allowance for player arbitration were sufficiently coincidental to create brief emergent scenarios that dovetailed with story or quests.

However, the Arcanum examples serves another purpose here, well for my purposes anyway: it is a great indicator that gives lie to the fact that C&C makes an RPG "good". It's neither necessary for an RPG to be good, but I would go so far as to say it isn't necessary for an RPG, period. If the underlying mechanical foundation is crooked then you can't have "real C&C"; you can only have "fake C&C" which is mostly comprised of mutually-exclusive story states or branching nodes.

The first of Ventidius' great posts in that thread (he makes several of these screeds that completely break down what I was attempting to communicate and expresses it much better):
Ventidius said:
Pointing to the existence of these games does not address his point though, if anything it proves it. He's saying that C&C, as it exists precisely in the sort of cRPGs that you mentioned, is a rather inadequate attempt to emulate the player agency and freedom that is possible in PnP RPGs. C&C in the full sense happens, as @Covenant pointed out, when consequences are able to keep up with choices. When all you get from a choice is an ending slide, an alternate campaign endstate, or some unique dialogue lines from NPCs, the sense of agency evaporates because it is all symbolic, a token.

True C&C means that choices drastically alter the ongoing gameplay experience and the consequences are not thus the end of a given gameplay experience but rather its continuation. This kind of C&C absolutely is possible in PnP RPGs, as illustrated by the off-kilter campaign story that Covenant linked to. Something like that would be far more fun and engaging than simply unlocking a different set of quests after a key choice, quests that by necessity are handcrafted and predetermined: the agency here is illusory, and that due to the constraints of the computer gaming medium.

The reason for this is that PnP games run on the engine of human imagination, while computer games would require a prohibitive amount of resources poured into them to approach even a fraction of that kind of player agency. Even if cRPGs were to attempt to set up that kind of platform for player agency, doing it in the Black Isle/Iron Tower style would be wrongheaded. Handcrafted quests and dialogue trees are not the gateway to more player agency, if anything they perversely tend to introduce a very peculiar kind of railroading that, while distinct from that seen in linear games, is just as insidious and restrictive as the latter because the only advancement options are through the quest network and there is no option for the player to strike out on his own and forge his own stories through the mechanics.

It is by introducing robust gameplay mechanics that PnP C&C can even begin to be rivalled. That was what Covenant was talking about when he mentioned Sega Bass Fishing, Harvest Moon, and dating sims. To match the emergent gameplay of PnP you'd need a mechanical diversification that allows the players to play out unexpected stories that the game designer would never even see coming. An RPG with fishing mechanics and a character system that allows fisherman builds would allow you to play out that particular story instead of giving you an alternate ending that says "and he dedicated himself to fishing for the rest of his days". If a game had Rise of Venice style mechanics that allowed you to build a trading empire maybe you could even come close to replicating that salt trading empire from the PnP campaign mentioned above.

In this sense, games like Deus Ex have come closer to true C&C than the likes of AoD, because they introduce a mechanical diversification into their engines that allows the player to express their role through the different ways of approaching problems and navigating the levels. Of course, these games have their failings too, as they often don't encourage the player to specialize, but the LGS/Ion Storm school comes closer to the spirit of PnP than the BIS school does.

There are two further points to clarify here. First, no, RPGs are neither fishing games nor commerce sims - and they'd be worse at implementing such specific mechanics than dedicated games - but they are the kinds of games where you'd have the choice to play as a fisherman or a trader (at least when sufficiently expanded, it goes without saying that no RPG allows these two options, plus the convential suite of combat options, not that I know of anyway). Second, yes this kind of thing would be extremely ambitious, and perhaps impossible to pull, but if one wanted genuine player agency, it would be the way to go. In any case approaching said agency through scripted quest/dialogue-based design would not be much more plausible, if at all.

If that is the case then, and matching the freedom of PnP is impossible for cRPGs, then it seems that the more logical course of action would be to take inspiration from the early, Gygaxian PnP modules that focused on tactical combat, character building, dungeon crawling and exploration, as these translated very well to the computer gaming medium from the very beginning, as the Wizardry franchise illustrates.

What’s the goal of reactivity/C&C? Well, why have any story at all? It’s to make the player give a fuck. The more interactive the story is, the more engaging it is. “These guys are trying to kill me because that’s the plot” is less fun than “these guys are trying to kill me because I made a choice that pissed them off.”
It seems that you think a narrative and/or reactive focus in RPG design is primarily about engagement. Leaving aside for the moment the tension that often arises between reactive and narrative-driven design, I am not sure I would say a good story or reactivity make for a more engaging game.

If engagement is about involving the player, then why not instead make the game focus on the gameplay mechanics? After all, the main difference between reactive narratives and linear narratives is that the former require more input for the player, while the latter renders him passive.

However, if player passiveness is the bane of engagement, then there is no reason to extoll reactive dialogue challenges and branching quests as a superior alternative to combat, exploration, and character building (the core triad of RPG gameplay), since the latter tend to involve more input from the player both in terms of the sheer amount of interactions that the player can undertake and of the variety and emergent value of said interactions. I personally find it easier to be engaged by a game with strong mechanics and thoughtfully designed combat and exploration content, even if it has weak storytelling/reactivity, than by a game where the opposite is the case. Bad combat and exploration can quickly put a damper on the moment-to-moment experience of a game, something that decreases the engagement of large swathes of a campaign.

Sure, some might say, "a good game should have both good gameplay and story", which may be true, but is rarely the case in practice. There are a few exceptions such as Fallout, but for the most part story-focused games tend to have terrible gameplay: PS:T, Kotor 2, Vtmb, Witcher 3, the list goes on. In practice, devs have to choose something to focus on and pour their limited resources in it. Games are never going to be as good as books or movies when it comes to storytelling, so the focus shouldn't be there.

Yes, games offer certain possibilities (through interactivity) that are not present in those media, but they are far too limited to compensate for what is lost by not going either for a dedicated narrative focus (as in literature and film) or a full commitment to mechanics-driven gameplay. Not to mention that, as we have seen, even in the case of interactive storytelling, videogames get trounced by another medium: PnP.

None of this is to say that a bit of C&C or story elements are bad for a game, on the contrary, they add to the experience when they are introduced in a way that is both harmonious with a game's core design and do not drain an inordinate amount of resources from the development process, but in the context of videogames at least, they should be considered primarily as flavor, or gravy, if you will. They should not be the design focus of RPGs.That place belongs to the triad of combat, character building, and exploration.

Some thoughts on story and its place in RPGs, from the same thread as above:

aweigh said:
Absolutely prestigious screed there by Ventidius.

I wanted to add a note concerning "story" and "plot": we as humans beings have our cognitive functions hard-wired to constantly decipher patterns and to constantly engage in symbolistic engagement. If you take a character and tell the player that he has to get from point A to point B, you can make a story reveal itself by utilizing archetypical design, and you can create a narrative by placing obstacles between the points. A story doesn't need to be a novel, or even conventionally plotted, to be effective; a wandering knight doesn't need a novel's worth of backstory and motivation to be an engaging avatar, the fact that he is wandering and that he is knight is more than enough to begin constructing a framework. I recommend discarding the the preconception of the game story as something that happens to the player, or as something that is told or shown to the player, and instead begin to assign internal values of increasing relevance as the game begins to frame itself around your character(s).

The adventuring party (or the wandering hero), as well the genre predication on management of resources and the focus on itemization, these are conceptualiztions of the transforming catalyst for the game world, and this is accomplished via deliberation of the core mechanics, and by the general aspect of management afforded by the layers of abstraction in the game itself.

I don't know where I'm going with this, I just wanted to say:

- Stories don't need to be novels or literate.
- RPG genre mechanics tend to be more psychological than instinctive, which is why it's something of a niche genre.
 
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Latro

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Yes it does. When the game is presented as an "immortal masterpiece" (this is a direct quote) that is far beyond any other top RPG then justifying the shitty part by saying "other games do that do" doesn't really work.
Gameplay shortcuts and AI cheesing doesn't really ruin a game. You could get through all of dark sun spamming mass possess, but most people still love it.

Fact is, there is much about JA2 that has never been topped by any game, and there is no tactical game that has managed to avoid "Grinding" quite like JA2 has by the teacher/student system. I could go in more depth, but Lilura is the true JA2 expert.
 

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