Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[FreeKaner]

Turn-based mode of this game would likely require an entire year if not more to complete. Any person playing this game on console will have a herculean task ahead of them.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

Jesus Christ, they're still releasing patches. Tell me, people who are currently playing, are those patches for old bugs, or new ones introduced by the Turn-Based Update?

If I'm not mistaken, the last pre-TB patch was in January. This leads me to believe that most (if not all) of the problems addressed with recent patches were introduced with the TB update.

Great, another six months of patching await. Just as I was about to begin my playthrough.

If you really want to play a more stable versione of the game, I guess you can try this: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1086279994

Oh, worry not, fair lass, I pirate everything I can, so I'll simply use the older GOG version if push comes to shove.

 

[The Jester]

I forget is this the game where if you have a ton of custom portraits it slows things down?

Only character creation.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Only character creation.

Technically, only portrait selection during the character creation. This is the only time the game scans the whole directory.

 

[Efe]

you choose a portrait before all is loaded but game keeps scanning those 1000+ portraits until directory is done.
they could just stop it but for a reason dont.

 

[Lawntoilet]

It is pretty much what is in PnP. Most foot sloggers can move less than 100 feet a turn but medium range+ spells and long range weapons can hit longer than that.
Melee sucks by the rules as it is written.

That's a problem with most editions of D&D in my experience, RPG designers tend to be weak nerds, so they make Strength less useful than it should be because they don't understand it.

 

[Haplo]

I think we can extrapolate a rule from PoE2 and Kingmaker's TB modes - TB modes in games designed for RTwP are a compromise at best, just don't.

I disagree. Pathfinder: Kingmaker turn based works beautifully. Well, I guess the AI could be improved.

PoE2 Turn Based mode failure was more due to the easiest, lazy solution the devs took, rather then impossibility of the task. Personally I'd love to play Deadfire in an Initiative/Personal Round Turn Based mode. Alas, they made it simple rigid round based and simply cut a major part of this game's complex mechanics.

Well, if only some modder was willing to code a personal round turn based system for Deadfire...

 

[Lacrymas]

You disagree, yet continue to list out reasons why both TB modes are compromises. People seem not to be very impressed with Kingmaker's TB mode, I haven't personally tested it yet, but we'll see.

 

[Haplo]

I haven't tested the official P:K one yet either. Yet I've played the modded one and absolutely loved every piece of it. For me its the only way to play P:K now.

Everything I know about the official mode points at it actually being an improvement, so...

 

[Lacrymas]

I hypothesize that TB modes for RTwP games won't be good because there isn't a very clear motivation to spend more than the minimum amount of time and/or resources on them. PoE2's TB mode didn't lead to a buying frenzy and Kingmaker's was done for consoles. Kingmaker's TB mode allegedly brought a ridiculous amount of bugs with it, including a game-breaking crash in the big battle at the beginning keep. It also stopped DLCs in GOG's edition from working, I can personally confirm that. That means they didn't even spend the time to play through the opening section with TB mode on. Why do you think others will?

 

[Ulfhednar]

I hypothesize that TB modes for RTwP games won't be good because there isn't a very clear motivation to spend more than the minimum amount of time and/or resources on them. PoE2's TB mode didn't lead to a buying frenzy and Kingmaker's was done for consoles. Kingmaker's TB mode allegedly brought a ridiculous amount of bugs with it, including a game-breaking crash in the big battle at the beginning keep. It also stopped DLCs in GOG's edition from working, I can personally confirm that. That means they didn't even spend the time to play through the opening section with TB mode on. Why do you think others will?

Kingmaker’s TB mode has been very stable as a mod before the official release, and at least up to this point Owlcat does patch their game. Unlike PoE 2, it’s rule system is meant to be played that way. You can also switch freely between modes, which PoE 2 could not do... There’s not much of a downside as far as I can see other than the new version will break old mod compatibility for awhile and there will be a wait for them to patch the official release. True for any complex cRPG. The company has at least been PC focused while the game has matured and didn’t immediately go for a cross-platform release.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I haven't tested the official P:K one yet either. Yet I've played the modded one and absolutely loved every piece of it. For me its the only way to play P:K now.

Everything I know about the official mode points at it actually being an improvement, so...

I mean if you feel that playing a game with lobotomized enemy is fun then its fun. But please don't pretend it is the "muh tactical experience" because it is not. It is like saying "I am strong because I can take candy from 3 years old"

 

[NJClaw]

I haven't tested the official P:K one yet either. Yet I've played the modded one and absolutely loved every piece of it. For me its the only way to play P:K now.

Everything I know about the official mode points at it actually being an improvement, so...

I mean if you feel that playing a game with lobotomized enemy is fun then its fun. But please don't pretend it is the "muh tactical experience" because it is not. It is like saying "I am strong because I can take candy from 3 years old"

Aren't they just as lobotomized in the original mode, though? The AI is the same, it's just less noticeable because everything is faster and more hectic. Sure, in RTwP you have more constraints on how efficient you can be with your spells, but that's basically a "difficulty" adjustment, the AI is just as dumb.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I haven't tested the official P:K one yet either. Yet I've played the modded one and absolutely loved every piece of it. For me its the only way to play P:K now.

Everything I know about the official mode points at it actually being an improvement, so...

I mean if you feel that playing a game with lobotomized enemy is fun then its fun. But please don't pretend it is the "muh tactical experience" because it is not. It is like saying "I am strong because I can take candy from 3 years old"

Aren't they just as lobotomized in the original mode, though? The AI is the same, it's just less noticeable because everything is faster and more hectic. Sure, in RTwP you have more constraints on how efficient you can be with your spells, but that's basically a "difficulty" adjustment, the AI is just as dumb.

I've done this post several times, this is the last time.

Because the AI still thinks they are playing RtwP. They still come to you one by one walking right into CC spells you set up in front of them just to die one by one.

Any melee enemies that require Sneak Attack are literally useless because they will come to you first due to high initiatives to die while the "tank" walks last and slowly to you. This is no issue in RtwP as positioning and real-time makes it that they arrive mostly at the same time.

The AI can't use 5-foot step to use full attack as the player does. They can't use Delay (which is available for the player for tactical reason, at least in the mod).

The AI doesn't understand the concept of action economy, movement range, attack range which is crucial in TB, less so in RtwP because, well every movement happens at the same time. Even if they see that they will stop 20 feet from you and they can't attack.. they will still move there regardless like an idiot.

While the player can use TB to navigate CC and plan movement, the Ai can't.

And yes, RtwP which requires some dexterity on the player part is a handicap for the player. Getting caught in CC because you suck at micro, having your attention divided into several parts of the map, etc works against the player but actually makes the game more challenging. In TB the bad AI of Kingmaker becomes outright lobotomized because they can't use the feature that should come with the game being TB, they are still dumbfucks that think they play an RtwP game.

 

[Haplo]

I haven't tested the official P:K one yet either. Yet I've played the modded one and absolutely loved every piece of it. For me its the only way to play P:K now.

Everything I know about the official mode points at it actually being an improvement, so...

I mean if you feel that playing a game with lobotomized enemy is fun then its fun. But please don't pretend it is the "muh tactical experience" because it is not. It is like saying "I am strong because I can take candy from 3 years old"

Aren't they just as lobotomized in the original mode, though? The AI is the same, it's just less noticeable because everything is faster and more hectic. Sure, in RTwP you have more constraints on how efficient you can be with your spells, but that's basically a "difficulty" adjustment, the AI is just as dumb.

Exactly, the AI is the same, but now you can see it more clearly.

On the upside, now you can also efficiently use every round of your casters and precisely aim the spell targets. Which again, makes the game easier, but is extremely satisfying.

 

[Haplo]

I hypothesize that TB modes for RTwP games won't be good because there isn't a very clear motivation to spend more than the minimum amount of time and/or resources on them. PoE2's TB mode didn't lead to a buying frenzy and Kingmaker's was done for consoles. Kingmaker's TB mode allegedly brought a ridiculous amount of bugs with it, including a game-breaking crash in the big battle at the beginning keep. It also stopped DLCs in GOG's edition from working, I can personally confirm that. That means they didn't even spend the time to play through the opening section with TB mode on. Why do you think others will?

Yeah, well, bugs. Seems the devs can't code a damn without summoning a swarm nowadays. They'll be squashed, I'm sure.

 

[NJClaw]

Because the AI still thinks they are playing RtwP. They still come to you one by one walking right into CC spells you set up in front of them just to die one by one.

To the best of my knowledge, this also happens in RTwP.

Any melee enemies that require Sneak Attack are literally useless because they will come to you first due to high initiatives to die while the "tank" walks last and slowly to you. This is no issue in RtwP as positioning and real-time makes it that they arrive mostly at the same time.

Perhaps I'm a bit rusty since I haven't played the game in a while, but I can't picture a single encounter where this actually happens.

The AI can't use 5-foot step to use full attack as the player does. They can't use Delay (which is available for the player for tactical reason, at least in the mod).

You can avoid these options while using the TB mode. I still like using the Delay option, but it's not that different from actively delaying your action in RTwP simply by keeping the character still.

The AI doesn't understand the concept of action economy, movement range, attack range which is crucial in TB, less so in RtwP because, well every movement happens at the same time. Even if they see that they will stop 20 feet from you and they can't attack.. they will still move there regardless like an idiot.

You can exploit this behavior just as much in RTwP, simply by waiting for the enemy to come to you and then destroying them with a full-attack: even if they see that you are waiting for them to reach you, they still move towards you.

While the player can use TB to navigate CC and plan movement, the Ai can't.

Again, that's true (to a lesser extent) for the RTwP mode as well. You can throw your spell and circumnavigate it, while the AI can't. Obviously in TB you can aim your spells A LOT better and that lowers the overall difficulty of the game, but the AI problems remain the same.

I'm not saying that the game isn't easier in TB, it's just that I feel that the AI of the enemies is just as retarded in TB as it is in RTwP.

 

[Lacrymas]

Better AI should've been a stretch goal in the WotR kickstarter.

 

[NJClaw]

Better AI should've been a stretch goal in the WotR kickstarter.

"Doubled AI!"

 

[Ulfhednar]

Better AI should've been a stretch goal in the WotR kickstarter.

They're waiting for you to make a mod they can steal.

 

[Haplo]

How do you get an Artisan? Do I not get one if KM is auto?

A) Build a village
B) Go there
C) Talk to the named guy
D) Do his quests
E) Wait until he makes stuff.

Only exception is Bokken the alchemist that stays at Oleg's before you recruit him.

Also build his workshop at the village management screen.

 

[Xamenos]

How do you get an Artisan? Do I not get one if KM is auto?

A) Build a village
B) Go there
C) Talk to the named guy
D) Do his quests
E) Wait until he makes stuff.

Only exception is Bokken the alchemist that stays at Oleg's before you recruit him.

Also build his workshop at the village management screen.

He said he has it on auto, I don't know what happens then.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Any melee enemies that require Sneak Attack are literally useless because they will come to you first due to high initiatives to die while the "tank" walks last and slowly to you.

That's how I've lost the Dog about 3 hours ago. He failed the initiative roll, I did not notice it - and 2 rogues with falchions ate him alive by sneak attacks against flat-footed. He managed to take half HP of one of them, but did not survive the encounter. And that was on pityful Challenging.

I think the only reason the game punished me for not paying attention is because the rogues arrived to the Dog simultaneously - due to RTwP.

 

[Cromwell]

I just dont have it in me to play with turn based mode exclusively. I tried but theres just to much to kill. I also didnt find an option to delay an action, whenever someone has his turn I use them, am I retarded here?

 

[Haplo]

How do you get an Artisan? Do I not get one if KM is auto?

A) Build a village
B) Go there
C) Talk to the named guy
D) Do his quests
E) Wait until he makes stuff.

Only exception is Bokken the alchemist that stays at Oleg's before you recruit him.

Also build his workshop at the village management screen.

He said he has it on auto, I don't know what happens then.

He doesn't get artisans.