Who's played Pillars of Eternity 2 turnbased mode?

[Grunker]

Vatnir is pretty cool agree!

 

[Lacrymas]

Inb4 it turns out BG1 had the best idea of what to do with companions. Which I've been preaching for years.

 

[Grunker]

hard disagree

 

[Prime Junta]

This is one of those cases of "if it's not worth doing well, it's not worth doing at all." Influence meters are everywhere now and they're dumb if they don't come with genuine gameplay consequences, like in KOTOR 2 for example. Otherwise it just turns into a harem anime minigame. Deadfire for example would have worked better without the influence meters, both for companions and for factions; just add a couple of gates that stop you from doing all the faction quests for all the factions if you feel it's necessary.

 

[felipepepe]

I really enjoyed PoE2 in TB mode, was one of the best RPGs I played this decade. But it's frustrating how some dumb decisions hurt the game so badly... like how a massive chunk of this game makes no sense unless you played PoE1.

It's crazy, you can easily jump into BG2, Fallout 2, Dragon Age 2, Witcher 2 or whatever without playing the first and you'll only miss a few references... in PoE2, you'll miss almost every single lore element not related to the factions of this area.

Shit like that, the bland story & writing all make it very hard to recommend it to other people without a dozen * at the end. A shame, really.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's crazy, you can easily jump into BG2 [...] without playing the first and you'll only miss a few references

This wasn't true for me. As a teenager, I had heard how great BG2 was (boy, were the rumors false) and decided to play it first. I couldn't get into it at all, I couldn't get a grip on the mechanics, the story was complete nonsense for me, etc. Years after, I played BG1 and loved it.

 

[felipepepe]

It's crazy, you can easily jump into BG2 [...] without playing the first and you'll only miss a few references

This wasn't true for me. As a teenager, I had heard how great BG2 was (boy, were the rumors false) and decided to play it first. I couldn't get into it at all, I couldn't get a grip on the mechanics, the story was complete nonsense for me, etc. Years after I played BG1 and loved it.

I also began by playing BG2, but I loved it from the start. Might be because I was already playing tabletop RPGs, so I knew the AD&D ruleset.

Also, the first area sets everything up pretty good: you are a child of Bhaal, this evil dude kidnapped you and now you must escape. Then he takes Imoen, and you must help her. We can argue if helping Imoen is a strong hook, but I already had all the info I needed. Returning companions like Minsc get fully explained in the intro as well - he's dumb, strong and has a pet hamster. It's entirely different from going blind into PoE2 and trying to understand WTF is going on with Aloth, or how is Éder's relationship with god going on.

Hell, do newcomers even get an explanation on what the gods are? Or why you are a watcher?

 

[Lacrymas]

Hell, do newcomers even get an explanation on what the gods are? Or why you are a watcher?

We got a 10-minute at-first unskippable intro during which we walk ...very slowly... through the Beyond while the narrator tries and fails to give a damn about PoE1's story by reciting it as if reading an ingredients list.

 

[Prime Junta]

I had a lot of trouble getting into BG2, and I also hadn't played BG1 first. I did eventually manage it.

With me though the story wasn't the issue. BG2 is a fairly hardcore AD&D game and it starts you out at mid level, so if you've never played one on a computer before, the learning curve is brutal. There are also a fair few features in it that are kind of the opposite of newbie-friendly:

- Unlimited resting + events that proc based on in-game time. Consequence: a newb rests after every fight, gets swamped by events.
- Very little to no indication of what level quests are. The slaver quests in the back of the Copper Coronet take active ferreting to find out, whereas Firkraag actively invites you into his dungeon, for example.
- Very little indication of where some of the companions are to be found.

My first attempts at getting into it were really frustrating. I got my arse whupped by the circus tent because I had sold the couple of +1 weapons I had to buy non-magical ones I was proficient in. Then when I got to the Copper Coronet I walked straight into Firkraag's place and you can imagine how well that went. Then I ended up in a beholder nest, getting death rayed to death. And so on and so forth.

I think some of these issues could have been avoided with some fairly small adjustments, without detracting from the hardcore appeal of the game. For example, give more hints about how hard a quest is in the dialogues related to it, add an NPC to nudge you towards the slaver quests, tie events to quest progress rather than calendar time, and so on.

I also think the could have benefitted from a more modern tutorial level that starts you out at 1 and then fast-forwards you to 7 or wherever you want it to start. Irenicus's dungeon would even have been a good backdrop to this; you start out level drained, then find things in it that restore your power (level you up). Throw a bunch of enemies with immunities and special attacks there as well to introduce the player to the concept, and you'd be much better equipped to handle Athkatla when you're out of the dungeon.

Put another way, I don't think I'd have the patience now to trial-and-error myself through the early learning curve to really get into it.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Most of these complaints sound rather weird to me. Resting mostly triggers npc dialogue and dream scenes, you get slavers quest from npc standing literally 2m away from Firkraag (sure, you need to read a bit and then talk to another npc standing 2m away) and you don't have to kill any of the shadows in the circus.

Also, running into shit that kicks your butt so you run away and git gud to return later is (was) an integral part of crpgs and very cool. Streamlining it out of the genre is one of the cornerstones of decline, but maybe that's just me. And again, it's not like it happened that often in BG2, outside of obvious and telegraphed (that dragon looks like it might raep you) encounters.

 

[Grunker]

yeah agree with zboj. I have fond memories of having to return to Firkraag, I don't get why that's a bad thing. Sure you could have a more accessible exit but that's more of a usability issue than a problem with the quest. Returning to Firkraag gave you something to look forward to. It's why you can handwave the admittedly very flimsy excuse Firkraag gives for not devouring you on the spot

 

[Grunker]

And I mean, I played that shit as a teen with an, at best, broken understanding of the english language. Even then it was perfectly playable

 

[Prime Junta]

Most of these complaints sound rather weird to me. Resting mostly triggers npc dialogue and dream scenes, you get slavers quest from npc standing literally 2m away from Firkraag (sure, you need to read a bit and then talk to another npc standing 2m away) and you don't have to kill any of the shadows in the circus.

There's a lot more than NPC dialogue and dream scenes. Try it once. I do stand by this: unlimited resting + events that proc by in-game time is a poor design decision. It ruins the pacing. One or the other, not both.

Also, running into shit that kicks your butt so you run away and git gud to return later is (was) an integral part of crpgs and very cool. Streamlining it out of the genre is one of the cornerstones of decline, but maybe that's just me. And again, it's not like it happened that often in BG2, outside of obvious and telegraphed (that dragon looks like it might raep you) encounters.

I don't object to running into shit that kicks your butt. I object to running into shit /blind/ that kicks your butt.

Consider Gothic 2. It is chock full of shit that kicks your butt, and it teaches you that from the very start: wander off the road before you even get into the first town, and you'll get eaten by a shadow beast and/or disemboweled by an orc. You /know/ when you're straying off the path and getting into dangerous territory, and it's supremely rewarding when you pull it off.

With BG2 OTOH there's really no indication -- or very little indication -- that you're about get your head bitten off. The only way to find out which quests are easier than others is trial and error, where error means gruesome and rapid death. No DM would do that in a tabletop game, because it wouldn't be fun. I didn't find it fun in BG2 either. The game only started to be fun when I knew how hard each of the quests was, more or less.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

There's a lot more than NPC dialogue and dream scenes. Try it once.

So what exactly happens? I think you get some couriers reminding about keep business and maybe recruitable-npc related quests, but it'n not like any of this is important or big. I guess some of the recruitable npc quests have time limits (I almost always play without them), but I don't really know why would it be a problem directly related to unlimited resting, unless you abuse it like crazy.

With BG2 OTOH there's really no indication -- or very little indication -- that you're about get your head bitten off. The only way to find out which quests are easier than others is trial and error, where error means gruesome and rapid death.

But there is almost always a clear indication? There's this secret room with statues full of treasure, but there are huge and mean looking golems standing next to them, what will happen if I attempt to loot? There's a huge shadow dragon that's not hostile, because I received an item that makes it non-hostile, what will happen if I attempt to make it hostile? And so on. But these are mostly extra battles with obvious set ups, there really are no big quests during the "free exploration" phase of the game that would completely kick your teeth in just because you're too low level. And you can always just go back if you didn't yet learn that you should have +2 blunt weapons or magic protection penetrating spells. The only exception I can think of is the planar sphere, I guess it's possible to run it without taking something reliably anti-mage with you and then some of the combat there would be brutal (although still doable).

 

[Prime Junta]

unless you abuse it like crazy

There's the rub, I /was/ abusing it like crazy. There is absolutely nothing in the game that indicates that resting for a week as your HP go slowly up is a bad idea, quite the contrary in fact -- "Rest until healed" is an actual in-game option, and it takes a long time if you don't have any/many healing spells memorised. I simply didn't know any better. And there's a /lot/ of events that will proc if you do that.

But there is almost always a clear indication?

Wasn't clear enough for newbie-me. I didn't even realise there /was/ lower-level content in the game as I was having my head bashed in by golems or whatever. (And yes, I did get locked in the planar sphere woefully unprepared too.)

I really don't see the point of arguing about this. BG2 was my first AD&D computer game, and it was incredibly frustrating to get into, for the reasons I listed above. That's just a fact.

It is my /opinion/ that this learning curve could have been greatly smoothed out with a couple of fairly small changes which would in no way have affected hardcore players' enjoyment of the game.

That's an opinion that you can certainly disagree with, but if you want to do it constructively, I'd expect you to go something like "no, signposting the quest difficulty more clearly would be bad because <abc>," or "no, tying the proc events to quest progress rather than calendar time would be bad because <xyz>." But saying "no, proc events don't fire too frequently for you if you abuse resting" or "no, signposting is entirely good enough," or "no, the game makes it quite clear to you that you're not supposed to rest-abuse" is a dead end, because all I can say to that is "that's not my experience."

 

[Dyspaire]

All gameplay debate aside, the Queen's Berth theme from Deadfire has become one of my all-time favorite piece of music from any game I've ever played.

Just lovely:




For reference, I think my absolute favorite bit of music from a game ever is the theme from Kuldahar from Icewind Dale:



Opinions vary.

 

[Grunker]

Heh, I think the Kuldahar theme is vastly superior. In fact I'd use your comparison as an argument against modern RPG music

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

That's an opinion that you can certainly disagree with, but if you want to do it constructively, I'd expect you to go something

Sorry, but I think I gave pretty solid and specific examples. Could the game do more than "Nice treasure to be looted and obviously menacing guardians standing right next to it"? Sure, like placing an npc nearby that tells you what will happen exactly. Oh, wait, except BG2 does that, too, like with D'arnise keep and the guard that tells you about trolls and gives you as many fire arrows as you wish.

I don't think you're making a particularly coherent point tbh. Bringing well-hidden and guarded body parts to a mysterious being entombed in a creepy sarcophagus isn't what I would call less obvious warning signs than "stray too far and get your butt kicked" of Gothics that you've stated as a good example. Also, both series frequently use things like obvious visual cues (if a creature is big an mean then stay away) and all that. Maybe if you have some more examples of quests than the planar sphere (which was given by me and is a pretty big stretch anyway, as someone not picking up that being ready to face strong mages is extremely important in BG2 by that point is rather unlikely).

And I absolutely believe that the game could give you a hard time. Whenever some hardkorr playa claims that BG2 is piss easy I always mind to point out that it is nothing more than a silly revisionism, as the game was actually fairly difficult for the first blind playthrough, offering lots of good, varied challenges. I just never felt any of them came from what you're describing and gave many examples why not.

 

[Prime Junta]

I just never felt any of them came from what you're describing and gave many examples why not.

I believe that your experience was different. I simply do not share that.

And yes I was shit at playing the game. How could I not be, it was the first one of its type that I encountered?

 

[Luckmann]

Inb4 it turns out BG1 had the best idea of what to do with companions. Which I've been preaching for years.

This is one of those cases of "if it's not worth doing well, it's not worth doing at all." Influence meters are everywhere now and they're dumb if they don't come with genuine gameplay consequences, like in KOTOR 2 for example. Otherwise it just turns into a harem anime minigame. Deadfire for example would have worked better without the influence meters, both for companions and for factions; just add a couple of gates that stop you from doing all the faction quests for all the factions if you feel it's necessary.

Playing Plebfire right now, I'm curiously finding myself liking the sidekicks more than the intended companions. I couldn't immediately pin down why, but I think it actually comes down to the characterization imposed by reputation systems. The way the reputation systems work, characters are essentially boiled down to some +/-; Edér will get a +1 every time I help an animal, so he becomes all about the animals and those few other aspects of his character, and Aloth will roll his eyes every time me, Edér and Xoti make fun of something. Always, 100%. Meanwhile, me actually supporting them seems to have no effect at all, which so far is especially noticeable with the Furball Cipher (I forgot his name).

The sidekicks, however, doesn't come with any of that baggage. They feel more "real" and, for lack of a better word, genuine. I enjoy the companion content, so I'm still sticking to companions except for that 6th slot I modded in that I intend to always have a sidekick in, especially since the amount of actual companions in the game is absurdly limited (and I could go on and on and on about how I still can't understand how Aloth and Pallegina got priority over actually-planning-to-kill-a-god-already Durance or I-literally-have-nothing-better-to-do-anyway Devil of Caroc).

But cookie-cutter systemics for determining interpersonal relationships have ramifications in writing, and should probably be avoided. It's always been nothing more than gotta-catch-them-all and game-the-system shit anyway.

And yes, Lacrymas, BG1 had it largely right. There's a very false dichotomy being pushed by developers and apologists, but at least in BG1, you could have a party fitting with your character without fucking yourself. Romances, companion quests, and relationship systems are incredibly overrated. What I would miss the most with a "BG1 approach" is that I really enjoy the characters reacting to the world and my decisions, but that - especially once you realize that "everything must be voiced" is idiotic - is also what would take the least effort, and BG1 already had elements of that.

There's a lot more than NPC dialogue and dream scenes. Try it once. I do stand by this: unlimited resting + events that proc by in-game time is a poor design decision. It ruins the pacing. One or the other, not both.

Plebfire doesn't even need resting. Just walking around doing stuff, time passes extremely quickly, and boom, I keep being assaulted by the progressing storyshitting of the companions.