trash combat or no combat

[Roguey]

Tides of Numenera had no trash combat and most people here hated it more than Torment which does because what it did have wasn't good enough.

 

[Tacgnol]

Tides of Numenera had no trash combat and most people here hated it more than Torment which does because what it did have wasn't good enough.

Tides of Purple Prose had a lot of problems. Their attempt to limit combat to meaningful encounters was admirable even if they didn't pull it off very well.

I've always liked the Paizo and 3.5 ideal school of encounter design, 3-4 "difficult" encounters per adventure day. It offers a good balance of sapping the party's resources whilst allowing DMs to design reasonable encounters.

 

[V_K]

Tides of Numenera had no trash combat and most people here hated it more than Torment which does because what it did have wasn't good enough.

The category of trash combat is not about quantity as much as quality. Encounter design in TToN is so uninspired that all of its combat is basically trash, even if there's not that much of it.

 

[undecaf]

I think I'd rather have that trash combat here and there than no combat.

With no combat the rest of the interactivity and gameplay needs some remarkable ideas to fill the same kind of space combat does for the overall gameplay experience. And while I don't think it's impossible to manage, I don't see many developers getting it right since out of combat gameplay seems to be a kinda weak spot across the board.

Nothing's achieved without trying, though.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Scroo]

I would have said rather have trash combat then no combat since I love TOEE even tho the encounters are complete shit. But then again I absolutely love Disco Elysium. I guess it depends on the amount of trash combat, PoE for example became unbearable through the combination of no real rewards, too many super boring encounters and Josh Sawyer

 

[Tacgnol]

Tides of Numenera had no trash combat and most people here hated it more than Torment which does because what it did have wasn't good enough.

Tides of Purple Prose had a lot of problems. Their attempt to limit combat to meaningful encounters was admirable even if they didn't pull it off very well.

I've always liked the Paizo and 3.5 ideal school of encounter design, 3-4 "difficult" encounters per adventure day. It offers a good balance of sapping the party's resources whilst allowing DMs to design reasonable encounters.

kangmaker made me realise that I like to create builds that somehow cheat resources, like using aoe intimidate to scare enemies away

Sadly one thing missing in CRPGs is the ability for tailored encounter design that saps certain resources. DMs will often design or modify encounters that will sap a certain character's resources more efficiently than others.

It's often part of a plan to make an encounter down the line harder as it might be the character that would make that fight really easy is now running on fumes.

It's also a good way of giving lower tier classes a chance to feel useful if they get outshone in most encounters.

 

[MF]

For years, I have longed for an RPG with no combat. Having played one (The Council) and dipped my toes in two more (Disco and Titan Outpost), I now think that the old formula of RPG with avoidable combat is vastly superior.

What I set out to do with Titan Outpost is replace combat with other interesting mechanics that are tied to the character system. The game is an order of magnitude more complex than Disco and actually models and simulates a world where the rules of the system are applied, rather than being a series of scripted events and dialogue checks.

I enjoyed Disco for what it is: An excellent vehicle for Kurvitz's writing with a convincing illusion of agency. Great game, and having the skills act as characters in the PC's internal monologue is a lot of fun, but I don't think it replaced combat with anything approaching the complexity of a good turn-based combat system. For better or worse, Titan Outpost does.

That said, my next game is going to have combat. Not as the main focus, but as one of the pillars.

In regards to the OP, I'd rather have no combat than trash combat. Grinding critters to gain XP is a staple that compensates for the lack of full duplex interactivity you get in PnP, but I never found it enjoyable in CRPGs. At best, it's padding the game time with idle clicking and at worst it's actively annoying the player with damage sponges.

That's a thing RTwP has going for it: Trash combat is less of a nuisance. I'm a turn-based guy all the way, but boy am I glad that Arcanum has a real-time option. It's one of my favorite games, but its combat is about as trash as you can get.

 

[V_K]

What I set out to do with Titan Outpost is replace combat with other interesting mechanics that are tied to the character system. The game is an order of magnitude more complex than Disco and actually models and simulates a world where the rules of the system are applied, rather than being a series of scripted events and dialogue checks.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your game is the same as DE, and I absolutely have no business commenting on the depth of its systems since I only played it for an hour or so before deciding to wait for patches. My post was more about my personal preferences changing than a criticism of those games.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

What I set out to do with Titan Outpost is replace combat with other interesting mechanics that are tied to the character system. The game is an order of magnitude more complex than Disco and actually models and simulates a world where the rules of the system are applied, rather than being a series of scripted events and dialogue checks.

This sounds like it falls into the Harvest Moon category I described on the previous page. I still need to buy it and play it.

 

[MF]

This sounds like it falls into the Harvest Moon category I described on the previous page. I still need to buy it and play it.

I had to look it up, but it looks like it has resource management and base building so you may have a point. I have to admit that I know very little about JRPGs. I played the first Pokemon and FF II and that's about it.

Hah. Imagine Pokemon without combat. Tamagotchi collector.

 

[MajorMace]

Trash combat because if it's turn-based, I can still enjoy it.

Autism is bliss.


Top OP, what about games like Diablo II, where the combat is objectively trash but also essential to the whole game design ?
Because whether you give a no-combat version of PST, or a no-combat version of Diablo II, I wouldn't give you the same answer.

 

[V_K]

Hah. Imagine Pokemon without combat. Tamagotchi collector.

It's called Ooblets.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

CRPGs are combat simulators so the question is invalid.

"Would you rather have a football game with bad football or no football?"

"Would you rather have a racing game with bad racing or no racing?"

etc.

 

[Willow Creek]

CRPGs are combat simulators so the question is invalid.

"Would you rather have a football game with bad football or no football?"

"Would you rather have a racing game with bad racing or no racing?"

etc.

More like would you have most of your matches against 5 years old children in a football game, or compete exclusively against pedestrians in most races in a car racing game, it's just a waste of time, just axe the combat if the game has some merits in the other aspects (unfortunately it's very rare) , or just axe the game.

Even when the combat has some narrative purposes, it will backfire if it's easy / trash.

 

[Horvatii]

Tides of Numenera had no trash combat and most people here hated it more than Torment which does because what it did have wasn't good enough.

Dungeon Rats had almost no trash combat. And which it had, was cut down in patches.

 

[Roguey]

The category of trash combat is not about quantity as much as quality. Encounter design in TToN is so uninspired that all of its combat is basically trash, even if there's not that much of it.

There are four mandatory crises in ToN; the tutorial battle, running away from the Sorrow, massaging the sphincter in the Bloom, and waiting for the device to activate while everyone attacks the Sorrow. There's only one place where you actually have to fight things, the tutorial.

 

[Stavrophore]

My stance is: if there's combat it should be meaningful. I don't like filler.

 

[Lurker47]

Autism is bliss.

One man's tedium is another man's comfort. You're on a forum for RPG's. Undeniably, RPG's are the most autistic genre of games to ever exist.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Autism is bliss.

One man's tedium is another man's comfort. You're on a forum for RPG's. Undeniably, RPG's are the most autistic genre of games to ever exist.

That's point and click adventure games.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Or grand strategy games.

 

[Nyx]

No, no, no, management games is the most autistic genre. Like Factorio and city builders and that kind of thing y'know? Or maybe aviation sims, when you do a pre-flight check even if you don't have to. Point and click adventure games is the least autistic genre out there, no numbers, no symmetry thingy, no procedure thingies, very mechanically light. It's kinda like the anti-autism genre actually. GSG is for larping nerds, not autismos.

 

[V_K]

The category of trash combat is not about quantity as much as quality. Encounter design in TToN is so uninspired that all of its combat is basically trash, even if there's not that much of it.

There are four mandatory crises in ToN; the tutorial battle, running away from the Sorrow, massaging the sphincter in the Bloom, and waiting for the device to activate while everyone attacks the Sorrow. There's only one place where you actually have to fight things, the tutorial.

And?

 

[Nifft Batuff]

I think that the majority of games is "trash combat" from start to finish, so I think that it is better to do other things instead of playing games.

 

[Lurker47]

Autism is bliss.

One man's tedium is another man's comfort. You're on a forum for RPG's. Undeniably, RPG's are the most autistic genre of games to ever exist.

That's point and click adventure games.

That's less for autists and more for dads. RPG's are for people who want to vicariously live as someone who can talk to women.