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Turn-based combat is not fun

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
TB is inherently inferior to real time simply because as an abstraction it will never be able to emulate the real deal to the extent that a real time system can.

What the fuck are you on about? Turn-based can emulate it the same as real-time. Probably better.

:lol:

Turn based can simulate reality (which is real time) better than real time.

:lol:

I really have heard it all.

Do people not realize that RTWP is actually just turn-based combat sped up and without the individual choices? Games like Baldur's Gate still track rounds and only gives each combatant the appropriate number of actions per round, and even allows you to pause at the end of a round. Neverwinter Nights used a real-time six second timer to emulate the six-second rounds in 3rd Edition D&D and still locked you into the appropriate number of attacks or actions. So, if anything RTWP is an even worse emulation of what you can do in turn-based combat.

Do you not realize that Baldur's gate is not real life? They overcomplicated that shit because they were trying to translate a turn based system into real time while trying to stay faithful to the original but it was all unnecessary. They could have easily set a standard attack speed and changed cast time/actual attack speed based on your stats (like you would in a normal real time or rtwp system)
 

undecaf

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Turn based can simulate reality (which is real time) better than real time.

:lol:

I really have heard it all.

I think he means that TB can simulate the minutia of reality more accurately in a percievable form than realtime gameplay, because you can have an effect that makes a difference from the tiniest instances that you might miss in realtime gameplay, because you don’t really have time to notice them (but in real life you would, because you have your senses). Like a broken toe or finger, for example (should the game have that).
 

Sarathiour

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The only instance of a fun turn-based RPG I can think of, is the Mario and Luigi series. In these video games published by Nintendo, you can actually affect the damage you deal with fun little minigames, and you can dodge attacks if you are skilled enough.

Ha, you seem like a truly prestigious gamer, sir :obviously:

I might recommand you to play YIIK, which is the pinnacle of the experience you are craving for.

Have fun ! :martini:
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Every thread on the topic of turn-based combat versus real-time combat should include a reminder that RTwP is a horrid abomination that combines the worst aspects of both and should be eradicated from the genre. :M
 

flyingjohn

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Turn based is the only combat system that is entirely reliant on your skill/planning without any outside factors like reflexes or ability to tell apart a needle in rtwp fights or getting fucked by path finding.
It can also be mastered without said elements and can be easily learned by casuals.Therefore it is perfect for any system that is is character driven,like rpg's.

Rtwp is for people who like the concept of combat but don' want to actually deal with the actual combat since most of rtwp is automated.And the harder rtwp fights only make you long for tb because of the annoying micromanagement.


Tb fans are people who like meticulously building a train set while rt fans are people who like modifying and watching trains go while occasionally pressing a button.
 

JoonaAhonen

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Turn based is the only combat system that is entirely reliant on your skill/planning without any outside factors like reflexes or ability to tell apart a needle in rtwp fights or getting fucked by path finding.
It can also be mastered without said elements and can be easily learned by casuals.Therefore it is perfect for any system that is is character driven,like rpg's.

Rtwp is for people who like the concept of combat but don' want to actually deal with the actual combat since most of rtwp is automated.And the harder rtwp fights only make you long for tb because of the annoying micromanagement.


Tb fans are people who like meticulously building a train set while rt fans are people who like modifying and watching trains go while occasionally pressing a button.
I don't actually play with trains. You can go back to your toys, while I sit here, playing not only you, but the intellectuals' favorite: real-time RPGs. TB is for slow people. TB is for virgins that want to fap to a female enemy before she is dead on the ground, unless they're a necrophile, in which case it will generally be better to wait for her being dead on the ground, since necrophilia is often strong enough of a paraphilia to make corpses the afflicted one's primary attraction. This is why I believe necrophile virgins are more inclined to play video games with real-time combat, than are their non-necrophile peers.

Let me counter your claims:

1. Turn-based combat is reliant on you sleeping over the heavy issue of a boss fight, hoping to wake up in the morning with an epiphany. It is not for gamers that want to test their skill. You need fluid intelligence for RT. The thing about pathfinding is valid though, but bad pathfinding isn't terribly common in my experience. I never used VATS in Fallout.

2. It is good for casuals, sure. I'm no casual though.
 
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Ol' Willy

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There is nothing TB can do that RT cannot do because REALITY IS IN REAL TIME.
Yes, the reality argument. You know, reality is 3D and first-person - should all games be like that? Reality doesn't have save/load - should we eradicate that? Reality doesn't even has the character creation. This way you stuck playing your life as a fat and ugly RT fag, while I play as smart and beautiful TB enthusiast.
 

PrettyDeadman

Guest
Real time combat isn't fun either. This is why Planescape Torment and Disco Elysium are considered to be best rpgs on codex.
 

Jvegi

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Turn based is the only combat system that is entirely reliant on your skill/planning without any outside factors like reflexes
No outside factors except for dice rolls and initiative checks you mean.
 

Lurker47

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Turn-based is easier to make good than real-time. Unfortunately, most developers don't bother to make either of them fun.
 

JoonaAhonen

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Oh yes, another prestigious thread from the esteemed author of:

Let's talk about RPGs,

Fallout 77 - GOTY?,

and the great classic:

God of War Enhanced Edition Has Bin Announced for the Nintendo Switch.

Can't wait for the long overdue Let's talk about RPGs 2.
Idk if you're making fun of me, but I still appreciate the kind words. I always wanted to be a video game journalist. I remember reading video game critique by Scorpia back when, and I fell in love with her excellent roasting.
 
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octavius

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Yes, that's a valid point, and certainly a concern in big/difficult fights, where it's easy to screw up if you for example accidentally move your mage while he's already started casting, for example. That's of course the downside to RTwP; it can lead to real clusterfucks where i's hard to keep track of things. But it also means you can react to enemy actions by changing your own current action.
As such it's more challenging than TB where it's easier to have full control.

Some Ai rant, shit that I discovered with my RTS project, only worthy because you are a prestigious codexer:

It is worse for the Ai though, in theory should be more challenging but in practice, you are dealing with Ais and you are way more creative and capable to deal with sudden changes in position than the Ai is. Pretty much all RtwP games are a cheese fest because the Ai cant keep up with you unless you do like PoE that pretty much made movement slow as if your characters had disabilities and killed movement so much, that at that point any advantage for RtwP is moot, or just script a bunch of bullshit like BG 2 did to give mages a chance.

Ex: I mean, there is a lich in there, some of my characters have lower initiative than him, some higher, I cant pull out all my characters from the room before him and his henchmen obliterate me in TB, what is perfectly possible to do on RtwP, the Ai also isnt smart enough to give chase to you and they cant move out of the way from shit like fireballs as easy like you. To program Ai for TB games, you only need to update a raycast once per turn so the Ai can update your position, the Ai can avoid AoE easy because you just need to label future AoE damage tiles as a priority to avoid and the pathfinding dont need to be calculated all the time on real time, the pathfinding also has shorter paths to deal with. I mean, on RTwP, every single frame the Ai need raycasts to keep track of you and update the pathfinding. Also, you as player, can do shit like unstuck and reorganize your characters on the fly, the Ai cant, if the pathfinding fails (the more complex the path, the worse is the chance for it failing), the Ai will get confused. One beauty of TB is that constrain the player on shit that the AI cant handle and test player skill on tactics and builds, something that is much easier as Ai builds are decided by humans and the tactics the AI used are scripted based on the arena it is.(I mean, you can cheese in TB if you have space but that is so boring for being painfully slow)

I'm not even talking of collider clustering problems, the bigger is the group of Ai entities (or narrow the path they need to trace like corridors), the harder it will be to navigate between each other if they have colliders, so they will get stuck all the time , IE games avoided this with a pushing algorithm and that is why it was so hard to properly block enemies with your characters, it was a basic solution. On TB, only one can move at the time, so the chances for they ALL deciding to move at the same time and causing a traffic congestion is way lower. You basically need to program flocking and local avoidance on the Ai what works well on RTS (good luck convincing a RPG developer to waste time with that shit like flow fields or any advanced real time pathfinding for a niche game that will sell 300k at best). There is a reason why so many companies are using realtime games to shill for their advanced Ais (nope, maybe by 2077 a RPG developer will get a good real time Ai like that).

Even with all that shit, if you plan for those Ais to do more than navigate on a basic straight forward path to your direction, that will be a problem, complex movement AND everyone moving at the same time doesnt work, you are capable of complex movement, the Ai isnt. PoE Ai was so bad that it hurt and that sort of shit, isnt totally Obsidian's fault and can only be "fixed" with tons of cheating. Anyone noticed how PoE Ai targeting and pathfinding with Attack of Opportunity mechanics was a mess where it was frequent for characters to just choose the worst possible path and eat AoO like crazy? Well...

If you were making a RTS where there is actually two humans fixing the Ai pathfinding errors all the time with perfect real time adaptation, then that makes sense but if there is an Ai on the other side, TB all the way.

But in practice the best enemy AI I've seen in a CRPG is BG1 and 2 with the SCS mod installed.
 

Dyspaire

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7-Layer Bars

  • 1 cup walnuts
  • 2 sticks (8 ounces) unsalted butter, melted
  • 3 1/2 cups graham cracker crumbs (from one 14.4-ounce box)
  • 4 cups semisweet chocolate chips (1 pound 5 ounces)
  • One 11-ounce bag butterscotch chips (1 1/4 cups)
  • 3/4 cup white-chocolate chips
  • One 14-ounce bag sweetened shredded coconut
  • One 14-ounce can sweetened condensed milk (1 1/2 cups)

How to Make It
Step 1
Preheat the oven to 350°. Spread the walnuts in a pie plate and toast until golden and fragrant, about 8 minutes. Let cool then coarsely chop.

Step 2
In a large bowl, mix the melted butter with the graham cracker crumbs until evenly moistened. Press the crumbs onto the bottom of a 15-by-17-inch baking pan. Scatter the semisweet chocolate chips on top, followed by the butterscotch chips, white chocolate chips, toasted walnuts and coconut. Scrape the condensed milk into a microwave-safe container and heat it at high power for 30 seconds, until just fluid. Drizzle the milk evenly over the coconut.

Step 3
Bake the bars in the center of the oven for about 30 minutes, until the coconut is toasted; rotate the pan once for even cooking. Transfer the pan to a rack and let the bars cool completely, at least 4 hours. Cut the bars lengthwise into 6 strips and crosswise into 6 strips to make 36 bars.


Make Ahead

The bars can be kept in an airtight container at room temperature for up to 5 days, refrigerated for up to 1 week or frozen for up to 1 month.

 

Goldschmidt

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At least good turn-based combat can allow the player to feel clever.

Key word highlighted. We all know about the codex and their precious feelings!

turn based is gay...imagine some gun slinging heavy hitters shooting at each other saying wait, now it's my turn

You stole that mental image from me. Yes, imagine a turnbased duel between two nerdy codexers armed with water pistols, each having to wait their turn to attack. It would be cringey as hell. Everyone on the planet knows that POE has the best action combat in a rpg and it will keep that place for the forthcoming years with the sequel. Fallout combat is pretty boring compared to it.

5a2fef0385600a6111428510.jpg
 

Darth Canoli

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Key word highlighted. We all know about the codex and their precious feelings!



You stole that mental image from me. Yes, imagine a turnbased duel between two nerdy codexers armed with water pistols, each having to wait their turn to attack. It would be cringey as hell. Everyone on the planet knows that POE has the best action combat in a rpg and it will keep that place for the forthcoming years with the sequel. Fallout combat is pretty boring compared to it.

5a2fef0385600a6111428510.jpg

The picture isn't Turn-Based though.
You certainly won't feel clever at all when you'll notice they're both firing simultaneously, this is literally RtwP (pause at first to prepare the duel)
 

ProphetSword

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But in practice the best enemy AI I've seen in a CRPG is BG1 and 2 with the SCS mod installed.

Didn't play that mod so i can't compare but one of the best AI (if not the best) is KotC 2 one.

Haven't seen KotC 2 myself yet, but I can tell you that KotC (1) has one of the best enemy AIs you will ever encounter. If that shit was real-time, you would lose every battle.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Turn based is the only combat system that is entirely reliant on your skill/planning without any outside factors like reflexes or ability to tell apart a needle in rtwp fights or getting fucked by path finding.

"I can't find my character"

M5w8mZT.gif


Like I said, TB preference is literal retardation.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
There is nothing TB can do that RT cannot do because REALITY IS IN REAL TIME.
Yes, the reality argument. You know, reality is 3D and first-person - should all games be like that? Reality doesn't have save/load - should we eradicate that? Reality doesn't even has the character creation. This way you stuck playing your life as a fat and ugly RT fag, while I play as smart and beautiful TB enthusiast.

Like most turn based retards you completely miss the point of my argument.

Third person isn't an abstraction of 1st person, like turn based is an abstraction of real time, retard. It doesn't need to rely on inferior approximations to emulate a feature of the system like turn based. It's just different.

Real time isn't superior to turn based merely because it's real, but because TB is BY DESIGN a handicapped version of real time. It gives up the potential to accurately emulate every scenario in exchange for allowing retards to take as long as their slow, snail like minds can move to make a decision.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Turn based can simulate reality (which is real time) better than real time.

:lol:

I really have heard it all.

I think he means that TB can simulate the minutia of reality more accurately in a percievable form than realtime gameplay, because you can have an effect that makes a difference from the tiniest instances that you might miss in realtime gameplay, because you don’t really have time to notice them (but in real life you would, because you have your senses). Like a broken toe or finger, for example (should the game have that).

It's actually the opposite, real time decisions are limited only by the frame rate whereas turn based decisions are limited by turn length (which is almost always longer than a split second). It's actually very hard to emulate minutia with turn based games and it would become virtually unplayable if you tried.

If you want to give the player complete control over every tiny detail you make a good rtwp system (with lots of autopause features).
If you want the player to manage their attention as a resource and limit how much they can do you make a real time with no pause system.

To do the former in TB you'll always be limited by ap/turns as discrete units much larger than a frame and to do the latter in TB you have to tack on stupid shit like QTEs.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Turn based is the only combat system that is entirely reliant on your skill/planning without any outside factors like reflexes or ability to tell apart a needle in rtwp fights or getting fucked by path finding.

"I can't find my character"

M5w8mZT.gif


Like I said, TB preference is literal retardation.

I never mentioned anything about not finding my character.
I guess you have that issue from playing too much rtwp games.

Not explicitly but it's the same line of argument (the quote is from another retard who argued the same point in a previous discussion). The topic has been done to death here. TBtards can't just say they enjoy TB more, you actually have the balls to claim intellectual superiority, often in the same sentence you admit real time is too much for your brain to cope with. :lol:

How can you expect me NOT TO go for low hanging fruit like that? You can't. It's inhuman.
 

ArisatoSeldom

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Should have been stay away from this holy war, but oh well.

The only party rpg RTwP system which I enjoyed playing with no hiccups was from Growlanser: Wayfarer of Time jrpg. Every unit does have it's "speed" attribute which affects how soon they can do an action (something like real-time mode in FF, but better). Given there are a ways to buff/debuff speed of unit, spell strength progress with the time casted, this all gives some tactical depth to the encounters (excluding trash ones). And good thing that game levels were designed around this systems.
I wish character options and progression were not so simple, but story variations and encounter-puzzles keep you engaged.

As for IE RTwP. Honestly, I have never understood, why should one have real-time, which is emulating TB, which you pause every goddamn round anyway? Phase turn anyone?
If you are making RTwP, you do RTwP and molding system to work smooth with it and design encounters to use your real-time feature. Not some clunky TB emulation, which is no good.
 

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