Can RPGs ever be as intelligent and engrossing as they used to be?

[Sranchammer]

The world of RPGs is over. The world of Onlyfans has only just begun.

 

[Sigourn]

The Witcher is not a cRPG for fucks' sake.

"Role-playing games" include everything from Wizardry through Fallout through Planescape: Torment through Skyrim and through JRPGs.
What every RPG has in common, generally speaking, is that there are stats that determine the effectiveness of the actors in play. Their importance may range from "very important" to "nearly negligible", but it's there.

But to say Wizardry is like Fallout is like Planescape: Torment is like Skyrim is like Chrono Trigger is simply wrong. These games play nothing like each other.

1. One is a dungeon crawler.
2. One is a cRPG.
3. One is a glorified visual novel.
4. One is an action RPG.
5. One is an RPG where the "roleplaying" is limited to pre-existing characters with goals, motivations and personalities having stats.

cRPGs are the greatest realization of what a computer RPG should be like. They don't focus just on the combat and the dungeon romp (Wizardry) and their combat doesn't rely as much on stats as it does in player skill (Skyrim); neither do they consist almost exclusively of words with tacked on gameplay (Planescape: Torment), not do they sacrifice the creative aspect that makes RPGs "role-playing games" in favor of pre-existing characters (Chrono Trigger).

A cRPG means liberty and creativity. It is the antithesis of very narrative driven games (most commonly found in Japanese RPGs). Just because one likes cRPGs doesn't mean they will dislike something like Chrono Trigger, but I sure as fuck would I struggle to recommend Final Fantasy VII to someone who played and loved Fallout, i.e. it's a nonsensical recommendation (just like recommending Wizardry). Deus Ex may not be a cRPG but at its core lies the liberty and creativity of cRPGs, and I'm sure someone who loves Fallout will probably have a great time with Deus Ex, or other "immersive sims".

 

[Eisen]

Diablo is absolutely a CRPG

Deus Ex, too, even though it's not a CRPG.

Why you consider Diablo a RPG but not Deus Ex? Just asking

 

[oldbonebrown]

The world of RPGs is over. The world of Onlyfans has only just begun.

I need a pinhead rating

 

[Tyranicon]

The world of RPGs is over. The world of Onlyfans has only just begun.

Why not both, together?

Brothers, we must embrace the coming of porn RPGs as glorious incline.

I have absolutely no bias in this.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

The world of RPGs is over. The world of Onlyfans has only just begun.

Why not both, together?

Brothers, we must embrace the coming of porn RPGs as glorious incline.

I have absolutely no bias in this.

Bisexuals as multiclass?

 

[madhouse]

Yes.

 

[Luckmann]

A cRPG means liberty and creativity.

No, it means Computer Role-Playing Game.

It is the antithesis of very narrative driven games (most commonly found in Japanese RPGs).

It is all about what you choose to focus on, which is why the CRPG genre is ridiculously expansive. JRPGs are just a subcategory of CRPGs. Nobody is saying that JRPGs play like ARPGs or hiking sims. Again, this isn't exactly rocket science; genres and subgenres are common. Trash Metal is still Metal. This idea that something can only be categorized as one thing and one thing only and never part of any other category as part of its categorization is some really thick-ass autism.

Deus Ex, too, even though it's not a CRPG.

Why you consider Diablo a RPG but not Deus Ex? Just asking

Diablo is the quintessential dungeon-crawling game, based straight out of an evolution of Rogue/-likes, although it would only be considered an edge case today (especially after the rise of "roguelikes" where the defining aspect is not the lone exploration of floor by floor but the ephemeral nature of the player character), and it practically created the ARPG genre, especially after the release of Diablo II. Gameplay is based almost entirely on the statistics of the character rather than the attentions and capabilities of the player.

Deus Ex is an "immersive sim" and is essentially an excellently crafted FPS with some CRPG aspects. But mostly I like calling it out as a non-CRPG because it really upsets some people that insists that all games that are good has to be CRPGs. In reality, I don't really give a shit how Deus Ex is classified (the original, at least; the newer games are definitely not CRPGs) as it stands out as a gem that expertly straddles several genres and defines itself by excellence regardless of genre norms.

The world of RPGs is over. The world of Onlyfans has only just begun.

Why not both, together?

Brothers, we must embrace the coming of porn RPGs as glorious incline.

I have absolutely no bias in this.

Siiiiiiimp.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

The Witcher is not a cRPG for fucks' sake.

"Role-playing games" include everything from Wizardry through Fallout through Planescape: Torment through Skyrim and through JRPGs.
What every RPG has in common, generally speaking, is that there are stats that determine the effectiveness of the actors in play. Their importance may range from "very important" to "nearly negligible", but it's there.

But to say Wizardry is like Fallout is like Planescape: Torment is like Skyrim is like Chrono Trigger is simply wrong. These games play nothing like each other.

1. One is a dungeon crawler.
2. One is a cRPG.
3. One is a glorified visual novel.
4. One is an action RPG.
5. One is an RPG where the "roleplaying" is limited to pre-existing characters with goals, motivations and personalities having stats.

cRPGs are the greatest realization of what a computer RPG should be like. They don't focus just on the combat and the dungeon romp (Wizardry) and their combat doesn't rely as much on stats as it does in player skill (Skyrim); neither do they consist almost exclusively of words with tacked on gameplay (Planescape: Torment), not do they sacrifice the creative aspect that makes RPGs "role-playing games" in favor of pre-existing characters (Chrono Trigger).

A cRPG means liberty and creativity. It is the antithesis of very narrative driven games (most commonly found in Japanese RPGs). Just because one likes cRPGs doesn't mean they will dislike something like Chrono Trigger, but I sure as fuck would I struggle to recommend Final Fantasy VII to someone who played and loved Fallout, i.e. it's a nonsensical recommendation (just like recommending Wizardry). Deus Ex may not be a cRPG but at its core lies the liberty and creativity of cRPGs, and I'm sure someone who loves Fallout will probably have a great time with Deus Ex, or other "immersive sims".

CRPG literally means "Computer RPG". What did you think the c stands for?

 

[Bloodeyes]

bullshit

You're an obnoxious, pig headed fucking sack of shit. Fuck you, fuck your bullshit and anything you have to say about anything. I've managed to go 13 years without using the ignore function but dear god I'm close with you. Fuck the fuck off you smarmy, smug illiterate dumbfuck. I refuse to further explain myself to the likes of you. You don't want to believe that I don't know the origins of the term cRPG after thirteen years on the fucking codex? Fine believe that asshole, I'm not going to change your mind. Seeing as you fucking agree with my central point I won't waste any more time arguing that bullshit with you, you spastic fucking sperglord. We agree, we're all on the same page here. Now go fucking hang yourself cunt.

 

[Bloodeyes]

If you knew someone liked The Witcher 3, would you recommend they play Fallout of PS: T? Maybe you'd recommend that to everyone, but you couldn't know based on their enjoyment of The Witcher 3 that they would enjoy those more traditional cRPGs because they are fundamentally different types of games that appeal to different types of people. Separate genres.

If you knew someone like "insert Heavy Metal band", would you recommend they listen to "insert Death/Doom Metal band"? ... blabla lba Separate genres.

I don't know. I don't listen to metal so I'm not sure how different death/doom metal is from heavy metal. But if they're ass different as Fallout 4 and Arcanum I would not recommend them and would consider them separate genres of music.

It's a bullshit distinction you're making. Heavy metal and Death/Doom are both part of the Metal genre, much like Diablo, The Witcher and Baldur's Gate are both part of the cRPG genre. Within that genre, there might be subgenre, subclassifications, but really that depends on your criteria, and there are no standards here.

Also cRPG is meant to differentiate pen and paper RPGs from computer RPGs.

Metal is shit and I know the origin of the term cRPG.

 

[Sigourn]

CRPG literally means "Computer RPG". What did you think the c stands for?

I understand that to a lot of people "cRPG" means "any computer RPG", and to a lot of people "JRPG" means "a genre of RPGs" (which includes stuff like Undertale, and leaves out stuff like Dark Souls) while to many others including myself it's simply a descriptor ("an RPG made by a Japanese company"). So please understand what I mean by "cRPG": a sub-genre of RPGs which attempts to mimic most aspects of the (traditional) tabletop RPGs, including but not limited to just:

1. Being able to build your character or group of characters.
   
2. Being able to roleplay your character through dialogue.
3. Being able to complete quests in different ways, roleplaying your character/s.
4. Stat-driven combat where player input is limited to choosing their strategy/tactics and directing their characters to execute them.

Naturally I wouldn't have posted why I posted earlier if I just wanted to define cRPG as "computer RPG".

 

[GrafvonMoltke]

No. Next question.

 

[Serus]

Get off my lawn!

Nostalgia aside, the trifecta of existential threats are not going anywhere:

• Consoles
• Lack of literary influence Storyfags
• Business considerations

The same thing happened to film when computerized graphics became more practical than practical effects. The market bifurcated between Marvel & else for awhile, but as the technology matures we now have Indies who can use it as a tool, rather than as a substitute for plot.

We can see that now in games with the fruits of kickstarters and their follow ups. Technology will continually lower barriers to entry in this field, at which point we'll have such a broad selection, that every taste will be accounted for.

 

[octavius]

After 13 years on the Codex my Wisdom stat has increased to such an unprecedented high level that I've learnt that playing games is far more fulfilling than endless bitching about wether the games I enjoy are "real RPGs" or not.

 

[Sigourn]

Get off my lawn!

Nostalgia aside, the trifecta of existential threats are not going anywhere:

• Consoles
• Lack of literary influence
• Business considerations

I'd say "consoles" and "business considerations" are one and the same: devs release games in consoles and PC because it's just more profitable. Those that don't are devs with a strong vision (or lack of money to release multiplatform) that would simply not work on a console because mouse and keyboard is far more comfortable for the game they are designing (this is unlike M&K vs controllers when it comes to games like first-person shooters: sure, M&K is more accurate, but controllers don't slow down the game's pace to a crawl or make it unplayable).

 

[Luckmann]

I refuse to further explain myself to the likes of you.

You never "explained yourself" to me, nor did I ever ask you to do so, but cool story, bro.

You don't want to believe that I don't know the origins of the term cRPG after thirteen years on the fucking codex?

No, you obviously understand the term now. I never claimed otherwise. After all, without the realization that you were wrong, you could never start the process of rationalization regarding why you're not ACKSHUALLY wrong. This isn't the first time I see this; people trying to defend their ignorance rather than to accept reality when faced with it.

Seeing as you fucking agree with my central point

Your only "central point" has been that CRPG does not mean Computer Role-Playing Game because muh language and but muh boyfriend. Nothing else was ever contested or had to be clarified to you, and given the amount of effort you put into your little drama freakout, it seems to have been some kind of central pillar of your cognitive dissonance.

I won't waste any more time arguing that bullshit with you, you spastic fucking sperglord. We agree, we're all on the same page here. Now go fucking hang yourself cunt.

Man, I haven't seen anyone this autismally butthurt about a minor correction since Roqua. It takes dedication being this committed to stupid.

If you knew someone liked The Witcher 3, would you recommend they play Fallout of PS: T? Maybe you'd recommend that to everyone, but you couldn't know based on their enjoyment of The Witcher 3 that they would enjoy those more traditional cRPGs because they are fundamentally different types of games that appeal to different types of people. Separate genres.

If you knew someone like "insert Heavy Metal band", would you recommend they listen to "insert Death/Doom Metal band"? ... blabla lba Separate genres.

I don't know. I don't listen to metal so I'm not sure how different death/doom metal is from heavy metal. But if they're ass different as Fallout 4 and Arcanum I would not recommend them and would consider them separate genres of music.

It's a bullshit distinction you're making. Heavy metal and Death/Doom are both part of the Metal genre, much like Diablo, The Witcher and Baldur's Gate are both part of the cRPG genre. Within that genre, there might be subgenre, subclassifications, but really that depends on your criteria, and there are no standards here.

Also cRPG is meant to differentiate pen and paper RPGs from computer RPGs.

Metal is shit and I know the origin of the term cRPG.

Rock is probably a better example. Rock is a genre that is fairly well defined. Yet just like CRPGs, it is rife with amorphous yet distinct subgenres, such as Surf Rock, or Country Rock. Despite the fact that these are all variations of Rock, they are all still Rock. As new types of rock are invented and crystallize, such as "Garage Rock Revival", they are essentially added as subgenres of the overarching Rock genre. Take specific note of how Rock as a genre was not redefined because of the popularity of Garage Rock Revival - a new subgenre was essentially created because there was a perceived need.

You probably wouldn't recommend Garage Rock Revival to someone that expresses a love for Hard Rock. But they're both still types of Rock.

CRPG literally means "Computer RPG". What did you think the c stands for?

Naturally I wouldn't have posted why I posted earlier if I just wanted to define cRPG as "computer RPG".

You didn't answer the question, nor did you provide a rationale for why CRPG should be reinterpreted as something it has never meant. There' are legitimate reasons why someone would propose the "creation" of discrete subgenres, as have been mentioned, if someone cares about genre classifications. There is no legitimate reason to misrepresent and reinterpret an existing genre abbreviation just because one initially misunderstood its meaning.

Or at least none that I've seen yet.

 

[Bloodeyes]

cuntery.

I'm not angry at being "corrected". I'm angry because I never even said the thing that you are correcting. Fucking quote me where I did. Straw man bullshit like this pisses anybody off. Nobody likes having words put in their mouth.

 

[Sigourn]

CRPG literally means "Computer RPG". What did you think the c stands for?

Naturally I wouldn't have posted why I posted earlier if I just wanted to define cRPG as "computer RPG".

You didn't answer the question, nor did you provide a rationale for why CRPG should be reinterpreted as something it has never meant.

I've always known what "cRPG" stands for. Which doesn't prevent me from defining it a different way, just like how that one YouTube video did (which lines up with my definition).
It's why I posted the "JRPG" example. Everyone knows what the "J" stands for, and yet, there's a vast majority of people who argue that a western game can be a JRPG. So it's clear that what the acronym means has no bearing on what games the acronym is applied to. Same with my definition of cRPG.

In other words, I never misunderstood what it meant. I just think its meaning is meaningless, just a convenient abbreviation that only makes sense in certain circles, i.e. if you are going into a tabletop forum it makes sense, but since this is a videgame subforum, what's the point? Did anyone seriously think the title of this thread referred to "RPGs" a.k.a. "tabletop RPGs"?

nor did you provide a rationale for why CRPG should be reinterpreted as something it has never meant.

I find "CRPG" to be an incredibly appropiate name for a subgenre of computer RPGs which try to closely imitate the tabletop RPG experience. Am I daft for bringing my own personal definition into the discussion? Probably. Still, I agree that grouping vastly different computer RPGs into the same banner is retarded, and the Top 100 RPGs list makes little sense because of it. At the moment, the only thing that keeps the list together is that all of those games have been released on computer (because many of them aren't even exclusives to personal computers, and many of them originally released on consoles, even).

 

[Silly Germans]

After 13 years on the Codex my Wisdom stat has increased to such an unprecedented high level that I've learnt that playing games is far more fulfilling than endless bitching about wether the games I enjoy are "real RPGs" or not.

How many Tome's of Understanding did that require ? I fear there aren't enough to share.

 

[Luckmann]

I'm not angry at being "corrected".

No, you've made it very clear that you're extremely angry at being corrected.

I'm angry because I never even said the thing that you are correcting. Fucking quote me where I did. Straw man bullshit like this pisses anybody off. Nobody likes having words put in their mouth.

You've defended the misunderstanding of "CRPG" at every turn, trying to rationalize that it should be reinterpreted based on that misunderstanding. To try to deny doing so is just pathetic, considering the record of the preceding pages.

I've always known what "cRPG" stands for. Which doesn't prevent me from defining it a different way, just like how that one YouTube video did (which lines up with my definition).

That only means that your "definition" is factually incorrect. It really is extremely simple; all CRPG means is Computer Role-Playing Game. There is no reason whatsoever to reinterpret that.

It's why I posted the "JRPG" example. Everyone knows what the "J" stands for, and yet, there's a vast majority of people who argue that a western game can be a JRPG. So it's clear that what the acronym means has no bearing on what games the acronym is applied to. Same with my definition of cRPG.

No, it's not at all the same thing. CRPG is a pre-existing genre, as are JRPGs. The fact that there are non-Japanese JRPGs is irrelevant to that. JRPG is simply a subgenre, regardless of where it was made. JRPGs never really meant "CRPG from Japan", but always referred to a style of CRPGs that (practically) originated in Japan.

In other words, I never misunderstood what it meant. I just think its meaning is meaningless, just a convenient abbreviation that only makes sense in certain circles, i.e. if you are going into a tabletop forum it makes sense, but since this is a videgame subforum, what's the point? Did anyone seriously think the title of this thread referred to "RPGs" a.k.a. "tabletop RPGs"?

The contextual relevance of "RPG" is not in itself an argument as to abolish a generally relevant term. All forms of rock are music (...arguably), and yet in a rock forum, you would not have to clarify that you're talking about rock. This doesn't mean that you should reinterpret rock as only referring to nu-Rock or vice-versa.

nor did you provide a rationale for why CRPG should be reinterpreted as something it has never meant.

I find "CRPG" to be an incredibly appropiate name for a subgenre of computer RPGs which try to closely imitate the tabletop RPG experience.

The fact that you feel that way is not in itself a good reason as to why something should be reinterpreted as meaning something it has never meant. "Computer Role-Playing Games" is simply the overarching genre. Nothing more, nothing less.

Still, I agree that grouping vastly different computer RPGs into the same banner is retarded, and the Top 100 RPGs list makes little sense because of it. At the moment, the only thing that keeps the list together is that all of those games have been released on computer (because many of them aren't even exclusives to personal computers, and many of them originally released on consoles, even).

There is not really a problem to group vastly different things under the same banner. It's fairly common. What you need are relevant subcategorizations, the nature of which aren't always obvious.

It's a genuine issue that there is no established subgenre for the type of games that predate the "subgenrefication" of CRPGs, but the solution to it isn't to try to reinterpret CRPGs, but to actually create a new term. My suggestion would be to try to avoid "classic" (even though it is likely the most common descriptor) simply because you're just going to have this issue again later, as everyone and their mother is going to try to peddle their game as "classic". Also, not a fan of CCRPG, nor would it follow the common established abbreviation norm of "JRPG" or "ARPG", etc. Terms where there is genuinely never any need to clarify that you're talking about a CRPG, since they are by their very nature already recognized as such. But it worked for MMORPG so whatever.

 

[Ismaul]

If you knew someone liked The Witcher 3, would you recommend they play Fallout of PS: T? Maybe you'd recommend that to everyone, but you couldn't know based on their enjoyment of The Witcher 3 that they would enjoy those more traditional cRPGs because they are fundamentally different types of games that appeal to different types of people. Separate genres.

If you knew someone like "insert Heavy Metal band", would you recommend they listen to "insert Death/Doom Metal band"? ... blabla lba Separate genres.

I don't know. I don't listen to metal so I'm not sure how different death/doom metal is from heavy metal. But if they're ass different as Fallout 4 and Arcanum I would not recommend them and would consider them separate genres of music.

It's a bullshit distinction you're making. Heavy metal and Death/Doom are both part of the Metal genre, much like Diablo, The Witcher and Baldur's Gate are both part of the cRPG genre. Within that genre, there might be subgenre, subclassifications, but really that depends on your criteria, and there are no standards here.

Also cRPG is meant to differentiate pen and paper RPGs from computer RPGs.

Metal is shit and I know the origin of the term cRPG.

First, learn about classification. Some classes encompass others and are more general. This is the relation between "computer game" and "cRPG", much like the one between "cRPG" and "hack n slash RPG", or "metal" and "death metal". My comparison's value doesn't change depending on if you like metal or not.

But I'm quite sure my explanation is pointless, since you're such a goddamn retard and pride yourself on being one, given your signature.

 

[DalekFlay]

Let's face it. All new, non-independent RPGs created going forward...

Your post was dumb right at this point. You can't expect AAA games to cater to the people who played Baldur's Gate back in the day. If you look it up, Baldur's Gate didn't sell anywhere near what popular games today sell. It was a different time. The RPGs you want do exist, but they're the indies you so casually toss off.

Think of today's AAA games as the Transformers and Avengers of the gaming industry, the MTV games. You either get some enjoyment from that or you don't, but you can't expect a square to be a circle. You shouldn't be bummed or disappointed that indies and some AA are where your niche enjoyment comes from... you should be happy that modern development and delivery methods mean you can get those games which cater to you, the faded and largely irrelevant old timer. Instead you whine like a bitch that MTV doesn't advertise the kinds of RPGs you want. Get a grip.

 

[Ol' Willy]

So please understand what I mean by "cRPG": a sub-genre of RPGs which attempts to mimic most aspects of the (traditional) tabletop RPGs, including but not limited to just:

1. Being able to build your character or group of characters.
   
2. Being able to roleplay your character through dialogue.
3. Being able to complete quests in different ways, roleplaying your character/s.
4. Stat-driven combat where player input is limited to choosing their strategy/tactics and directing their characters to execute them.

Naturally I wouldn't have posted why I posted earlier if I just wanted to define cRPG as "computer RPG".

Meaning CRPGs, of course, the rest are just mongrels

What is an RPG? The favourite RPG Codex question. But the answer is simple. RPG is a Role-Playing Game, danke schön, Captain Obvious. But what is a Role-Playing?

A lot of people confuse Roleplaying and LARPing. Like, "I play a good character, so I tend to do good thing and don't lie to people". That's LARPing, my friends. You can LARP like this in any given game. Even in Doom. Like, "My Doomguy was raised on farm, where his father taught him how to shoot with his old Remington. Because of this I tend to use shotguns most of the time. And, being a farmboy, my Doomguy dislikes Energy weapons.". Entirely possible.

Roleplaying presumes indirect interaction of player with the gameworld through the medium of player character. That is, games with direct interaction have a hard time being proper RPGs: it's not your character, it's you and your skill. It's you who controls movement and aiming directly in any given FPS, so it's your fault and lack of skill on your side if you miss or fail to dodge the incoming attack. The character in any game with direct control is your "puppet", totally depending on your skill. In RPG, it's your character who aims and shoots, and any miss is lack of skill on your character's side. That's why isometric perspective with indirect controls is the best medium for a RPG game. Though, FPS and third-person games where skills affects your controls to a greater degree could be described as RPGs (see Deus Ex). Also, now you can see why minigames have no place in RPGs: they test player skill, not the character's. While games with direct control put player at the position of "doer", games with indirect controls put player the level above - at the position of "choicer".

That's roleplaying. The columns, on which the roleplaying lies are:

1) Player character as indirect medium between the player and gameworld.
2) Outcome depends more on character skills and less on player' skill. Player chooses, character does.
3) There should be a lot of such interactions, obviously.
4) And choice, after all. Otherwise, it would be "Predetermined character playing game".

Everything else falls into these categories. You have dialogue: lines, that your character can come up with. Maybe you, player, know something, but you can't say it because your character doesn't know this. Interactions with objects: maybe you, player, know how to fix three-phased electrical motors, but your character doesn't have Repair skill and thus fails. Etc.

And elephant in the room: what about combat? Thing is, combat just suits roleplaying games well. Combat is fun. Combat translates to indirect controls well. Combat has high replay value. Combat allows for a lot of choices. Game without combat could be a proper RPG, but, I reckon, it takes an exorbitant amount of skill to make it equal to RPG with combat in aforementioned criteria. There is still no combatless RPG equal to the best RPGs with combat.