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Game publishers

Aemar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 18, 2018
Messages
6,055
Since there are quite a lot of people around here involved in the game development, I would like to ask what are the pros and cons of working with publishers. Based on your own experience, how essential are these companies in this day and age?
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
Most people should avoid them because they aren't smart enough to read and understand the contracts they are signing.
 

Aemar

Arcane
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Aug 18, 2018
Messages
6,055
Most people are at least smart enough to hire lawyers to help them sorting out various types of contracts. You can't deny yourself a business opportunity based solely on the reasoning you just mentioned.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Most people are at least smart enough to hire lawyers to help them sorting out various types of contracts. You can't deny yourself a business opportunity based solely on the reasoning you just mentioned.
A contract is only as good as your ability to enforce it (in this case zero). Let's say the publisher breaks the contract. Now you need to hire a good lawyer (good enough to go against a publisher that has a legal department or a firm on retainer), which will cost you upfront (nobody will touch for a %). The process will take months, sometimes years. Few people can afford to play this game, pay the lawyer for months and years, etc. Proving that the publisher broke the contract won't be easy either, so after all this time and money spent on lawyers you can still lose or get very little (less than what it cost you).
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
Most people are at least smart enough to hire lawyers to help them sorting out various types of contracts. You can't deny yourself a business opportunity based solely on the reasoning you just mentioned.
The bolded statement is not factually true. Nor is it if we limit the demographic to game developers.
 

Bester

⚰️☠️⚱️
Patron
Vatnik
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Sep 28, 2014
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11,006
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USSR
Most people are at least smart enough to hire lawyers to help them sorting out various types of contracts.
When I hire freelancers, I usually write contracts in a sort of Legal Simple English. Usually one pagers. This is basic courtesy.
If a company sends you a 50 pages contract, either ask them to uncomplicate it, or just look for someone else to do business with.

As for original question, I've never worked with a publisher in gamedev. In mobile gamedev, they can do a lot of stuff for you, because ads and analytics are a thing. In PC gamedev, I'm not sure what they can offer other than development money. If this is what you need, then you obviously have to present a playable demo and then work from there. There's lucrative opportunities for all involved. But if you don't need development money, I don't think they can do a lot in terms of promotion. Paying youtubers and making sure someone at RPS writes about your game, I'm just not sure it's worth much. But I don't know, it's a guess.

Also what VD wrote. I'm just coming out of a breach of contract with a Canadian 3d artist. I'm not going to sue him, cause it's just not worth the trouble. He basically robbed me of 5k bucks. Our contracts were solid, but I'm not hiring a lawyer for a small amount like that.
 
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The Avatar

Pseudodragon Studios
Developer
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
336
Location
The United States of America
Are publishers still a thing? Weren't they that thing before Steam existed-that you had to do if you wanted to release a physical boxed game in a store? Sounds like there's no point in having publishers these days, as they just take even more money out of the 30% cut Steam already takes. You'd be better off finding a marketing person.
 

RobotSquirrel

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
1,947
Location
Adelaide
Are publishers still a thing? Weren't they that thing before Steam existed-that you had to do if you wanted to release a physical boxed game in a store? Sounds like there's no point in having publishers these days, as they just take even more money out of the 30% cut Steam already takes. You'd be better off finding a marketing person.

You're confusing publisher with a distributor. Historically you'd be right but in the modern sense publishers behave more like an investment venture capitalist bank. Anything that can be outsourced usually is. This is why so many people myself included believe the publisher model is obsolete. They are an un-necessary middleman now. Intellectual Properties are basically the only reason publishers are still relevant. They sit on a pile of IPs like a Dragon guarding treasure.

On the mobile front my advice would be just don't. As time goes on Mobile is becoming increasingly irrelevant as we see appstores move towards netflix/gamepass type distribution. Is it a cartel, yes! damn right it is but the market allowed it to happen and didn't even question it. I'd even say that Steam v Epic is a fairer engagement than Apple v Google. I am biased because I saw THQ's collapse in mobile from the perspective of a 3rd party developer. I don't wish that experience on anyone.
 

bylam

Funcom
Developer
Joined
Oct 30, 2006
Messages
707
Since there are quite a lot of people around here involved in the game development, I would like to ask what are the pros and cons of working with publishers. Based on your own experience, how essential are these companies in this day and age?
I've been on both sides of this. Worked as a client studio with EA and Eidos on The Secret World and Age of Conan respectively. Recently (last year or so) I've been working with studios who have games that Funcom will publish. This became one of my responsibilities in around Sept/October last year.

Big publishers hedge their bets. They spread their investments across multiple projects and cancel them quickly if they fail to deliver. The contracts are airtight and tend to be extremely detailed. The big publishers tend to be extremely on top of things and they do continual assessments. They are ruthless and they are definitely "a business". They can be your best friend if you are going to deliver but they will drop you cold if you fail to get stuff done. The rumor going around at Funcom (and I was not high up enough to confirm this) was that EA bought the retail rights to The Secret World solely to have full control over the launch date and make sure it did not launch anywhere near The Old Republic. What's several million dollars compared to the several hundred invested, after all? The advantages - they will invest money in your project. And if they truly see it becoming something special, they will back it with marketing and press. Don't underestimate that. The disadvantage - you've gotta deliver or you will be cut and they will have their money back before you see a cent.

Smaller publishers offer a lot less. They usually offer to provide marketing/press but for a cut of the profit and no/small amounts of money on the table. You have to gauge how much value their marketing is worth. Do they really have the reach that they claim? How have their last titles been? You've got to make sure the contract is favorable and pretty much all publishers have a recoup clause - they get their money back before you see a cent as the developer.

Funcom tends to go for co-development contracts - both sides contribute to the budget of the project. It makes sure everyone has skin in the game. Because it honestly is about trust and relationships at the end of the day. We deliberately look for game types that suit our experience so that we can offer tech support etc. We do marketing and organize deals (this is perhaps where a publisher will help the most - we have direct contacts and support at Microsoft, Steam, Sony, Epic etc.) and we can get dev kits early and provide scaling QA (as the needs of a project require).

There are plenty of examples of self-published doing great and there is no *need* for a publisher in this day and age. However, a publisher can be a signal boost and provide a bunch of support that is beyond what most indies can afford on their own. Publishers (in my experience) are not trying to rip you off, but they also aren't going to assume any risk that they don't have to. Go into any negotiations with open eyes and make sure you get a tangible overview of the benefits before committing to anything.
 

Chris Koźmik

Silver Lemur Games
Developer
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
414
I have a very limited experience on this, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I'm releasing on Steam/GOG without a publisher, and well it works fine. For Nintendo Switch I got a publisher (the porting company is a publisher on that platform) and well, it works well too :D So... I can see benefits of taking a publisher and of not taking one :D I think it's definitely worth considering but not a must.

I think the most important thing when it comes to publisher/investor is to not take one which provides just money, that's insuffiicient. The publisher/investor must have some competitive advantage that can be utilized by your game (marketing prowess/know how/etc).

Oh yes, reading a contract & understanding it is a good thing as well :D But be wary of lawyers, I have heard numerous stories where the publisher actually pointed out that the stuff proposed by the developer's lawyer are actually bad for the developer (real story: one lawyer hired by the developer inserted in the legal document that "the developer will provide a product with no bugs", obviously once the publisher told them so the developer simply signed the publisher's version of papers :D). Probably you will be better of examining the papers yourself than to trust a non gaming lawyer. When I'm using lawyer's service I always read it, ask what something means if I don't understand and provide some changes for cases known for me as a developer. Plus I always, always read and examine all the papers myself, there is no substituting this (unless you hire your own lawyer full time).
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

Graverobber Foundation
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
3,086
Location
デゼニランド
From personal experience -- you don't need a publisher now and anyone who says otherwise is most likely living in a bubble. However, having a dedicated person or two to handle the marketing side of things is always a good idea -- many developers (myself included) aren't very good at it and tend to dive deep into the development to the point there's little time or energy left to actively promote the product itself.

If you have the funds, if you can promote the game on your own, and if you can get people to playtest it and provide feedback, what's the point of another cook in the kitchen?
 

The Avatar

Pseudodragon Studios
Developer
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
336
Location
The United States of America
I take it back. As we learned from the recent Wayward Realms fiasco, certain publishers can fund you millions of dollars if they think your project is good enough. Paradox Interactive is one of them. Are there any other publishers with deep pockets who are willing to throw money to small indie game developers?
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
Patron
Bethestard
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
21,144
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
If you're a small indie developer then make small games on your own and use that money to fund bigger projects. Anything else is building a house on sand. If your small projects are shit and make no money then I guess you just weren't cut out for the job.
 
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