Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

Prime Junta

Guest
Actually I would find it very hard to believe that the main culprit of the delay is narrative development and not some technical/gameplay problems.

Depends. If the game is narrative heavy, it's gonna have a lot of dialogue trees and a lot of complicated quest scripting. If you've got a narrative lead who keeps moving things around and are lacking in ways to automatically maintain integrity of those flags (which might be impossible since a lot of them will be related to authorial intent, i.e. can't be automated away), those are going to turn into spaghetti of broken quests and incoherent dialogues.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
If we believe Mitsoda's words then it's not his department (narrative) that's delaying the release, and he had no input in the decision to delay production. Actually I would find it very hard to believe that the main culprit of the delay is narrative development and not some technical/gameplay problems.

Yes but in a "get it out the door" stage he's probably either irrelevant or making demands to stay "true to the scope" that isn't being completed. I mean, no one knows the whole truth... not me and not Mitsoda fans... but the game keeps getting delayed and Paradox don't have Activision money and I'm not going to immediately assume they're the bad guys.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,665
Political difference can't last that long. And if they want to make sequel to Bloodlines, they need story that depends on Vampires, not on random political blabbering of some people. While it's possible to make a story about how city falls under massive terrorsists spree and how that dragged vampires into problems.
...
Actually lets look what the story would need to sound plausible.
- In current political climate in US the only plausible start of massive terrorist activity is when blacks would initiate it. Because Vampires would be dragged in as victims, the bad people would be blacks (and possibly some hispanos) born in US.
Yea you are drinking serious shit when you think this would be released.
- Obviously looting and rioting by blacks wouldn't last long, thus for longer term riots which are necessary to properly flesh out the story, we would need something that would cause continuation of riot, even after blacks would rob shops for all TV and clothes they personally need. A misguided young whites who are continuing protests against what caused original black riot (even when blacks no longer bother to protest) would be completely believable and should allow a long term story.
This is getting better. This is so impossible to publish.
- While it's a bad idea to have something extraordinarily out of story to affect the story, logic says the riots should be fueled from outside because the person would wants riots to (who knows what reasons) wouldn't risk himself to even approach the town which is rioting. Well the story should be full of humorous elements so next part of story would flow just into it and sound believable. The president of USC nicknamed "Dummy Donald" know to have a spine equal to gummy bears, a president who has blond hair and made his face black to be more approachable by Hispanic electors, who is currently campaigning for his second term, made so underhanded nasty acquisition which was low even for him... Which prevented the person who financially supported riots to continue to fuel riots, thus situation stopped be hopeless. It's really important to show stupidity of "Dummy Donald" in funny way in TV shows and newspapers, to increase the irony of the acquisition which obliterates most of plans of rich greedy moron who wanted to destabilize that area.

- Now ending should be about three groups. Groups of young friends of these white protesters that try to save them from 11 years in prison. Few government officials who want to stop riots and save the town even when that would violate laws to get situation under control. And Vampires who want to not DIE because of riots. Which would inevitable bring in National Guard. Which would very likely cause deaths of most of Vampires in city. Government officials would see Vampires as a some kind of mafia who don't have time to commit crimes because they are trying to stop riots in the city. That should be recurring theme during game.

TV just shown dummy Donald who had another pre-election speech. He claimed how great was his effort during his last election term to help the country to rise economically.

The pub started to talk if he's also black under his belt. Person from ex-tatoo shop (currently outlawed by anti-HIV2 government regulation) claimed it's not endangering to balls even when it's done on balls.

After the pub heard my complain "but Dummy Donald doesn't know it." The pub divided between if he was brave enough to risk it, or if his brain emerged from the depth of his soul and saved him from the full course (on the grounds it's still painful when done on balls, and special paint is expensive and paid for a square inch).

The country was named USC after the fiasco when he changed constitution laws to change dynamically last letter to be the same as Standard And Poor country credit rating. Then he spend massive effort during the rest of his term to prevent country to automatically change name to USD.


...
14 days after ending cutscene. A vampire fixer would finally get out of supermax, and after arrival discovered they basically managed to keep masquarade intact, and would only make it worse. (So you are basically a mafia who cut deal with government to escape investigation. That solved all problems. I really don't understand your complains.)



Basically writing decent story that would allow passable Vampire Bloodlines is not that difficult. Game developers just shouldn't be scared that someone would complain.
 

Wesp5

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,774
If the game is narrative heavy, it's gonna have a lot of dialogue trees and a lot of complicated quest scripting. If you've got a narrative lead who keeps moving things around and are lacking in ways to automatically maintain integrity of those flags (which might be impossible since a lot of them will be related to authorial intent, i.e. can't be automated away), those are going to turn into spaghetti of broken quests and incoherent dialogues.

Dialogues and scripts are easy to fix though! Even a complete amateur like myself could do this for Bloodlines ;), so I don't think they should cause big delays. But having a map not ready prevents you from connecting it with other maps which prevents you from getting a real feeling for the game. I know that from the Prelude mod which almost never came out because of this.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,575
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Dialogues and scripts are easy to fix though! Even a complete amateur like myself could do this for Bloodlines ;)
Mitsoda always said that building a branching RPG, with plotting, consequences, fitting all the pieces together over the course of the whole project, etc. is the most complicated work in game dev. If you find it trivially easy to do, you should immediately start a legit studio of your own. Not being sarcastic. A DEVELOPER tag would look great on you.
 

compvet24

Educated
Joined
May 17, 2020
Messages
83
I liked Bloodlines because each character was interesting, fit the world, believable, unique and had great voice acting. The atmosphere was fantastic, music was spot on for its environments and the amount of freedom to make your way in the world wasn't limited by much.
I hope I am not the only one in thinking that I could not give a FUCK at all about that gay WOD shit, you could take vampires out of it and it'd still have everything I enjoyed about it. The plot is low priority for me, but it seems Hardsuit hasn't even been able to get over that hurdle.
 

Wesp5

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,774
Mitsoda always said that building a branching RPG, with plotting, consequences, fitting all the pieces together over the course of the whole project, etc. is the most complicated work in game dev.

Indeed, but after five years in development, the basics of this must have been set. What I meant was that any specific quests breaking after that should be fixable without causing delays.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
the basics of this must have been set

Must they? What if the auteur everyone holds in awe just insists on keeping on tinkering with it, moving things around, adding a twist here, a check there...?

Don't get me wrong, I think that sort of thing is precisely what makes VtM:B so compelling -- but I can also see how it could turn into a production nightmare, if the narrative team just simply can't shift gears into stabilising and debugging and keeps expanding and rearranging instead.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,665
But as I shown in that above post with bad grammar. It's easy to create a basic storyline which allows to create and easily mod any scripting in each chapter. And when developers are afraid of multiple triggers breaking, they can write a tool that allows them to change them simultaneously. Frankly when CDproject managed just fine with Witcher 3, there is no reason why BL2 developers should fare worse.

Dialogues and scripts are easy to fix though! Even a complete amateur like myself could do this for Bloodlines ;), so I don't think they should cause big delays. But having a map not ready prevents you from connecting it with other maps which prevents you from getting a real feeling for the game. I know that from the Prelude mod which almost never came out because of this.
You worked on it more than 3 years, you are no longer an amateur. In fact, a person with passion and salary that doesn't depend on the game he's modding, can show more skills because he's not as afraid of breaking stuff.
 

Flying Dutchman

Learned
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
475
I don't have LinkedIn, but I think someone here or on Reddit posted that both Schlütter and Schwarzer are still producers at Paradox. If that is the case they were moved and not fired...

On his LinkedIn, Schlutter mysteriously stopped work at Paradox in August of 2020 during the time of the cull, and began work at some German company YAGER in August of 2020.

Also - get this - one of his titles is "Experienced Producer." Is that seriously a thing? If it's serious, they should have fired him before they hired him.

Schwarzer is still there, it looks like, but I don't think he's directly involved with Vampire. He must have drawn the long straw.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,445
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Mitsoda always said that building a branching RPG, with plotting, consequences, fitting all the pieces together over the course of the whole project, etc. is the most complicated work in game dev.

Indeed, but after five years in development, the basics of this must have been set. What I meant was that any specific quests breaking after that should be fixable without causing delays.

It's sadly pretty normal to see a developer create a reasonably tight-looking E3 demo vertical slice and then fall flat on their faces once they have to expand that to a full game.

I mean, Cyberpunk 2077 already looked pretty playable in that 48 minute gameplay video over two years ago, right? What's taking them so long? Similar thing.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,665
It's sadly pretty normal to see a developer create a reasonably tight-looking E3 demo vertical slice and then fall flat on their faces once they have to expand that to a full game.

I mean, Cyberpunk 2077 already looked pretty playable in that 48 minute gameplay video over two years ago, right? What's taking them so long?
Million lines of text and writer's block?
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,810
the basics of this must have been set

Must they? What if the auteur everyone holds in awe just insists on keeping on tinkering with it, moving things around, adding a twist here, a check there...?

Don't get me wrong, I think that sort of thing is precisely what makes VtM:B so compelling -- but I can also see how it could turn into a production nightmare, if the narrative team just simply can't shift gears into stabilising and debugging and keeps expanding and rearranging instead.
As a hypothetical, sure. But this explanation seems rather tortured - is it purely based on BM’s role? The theory that he was sowing staff turnover / unease due to inability to juggle production realities, team bandwidth and promises to publishers seems much more prosaic and thus reasonable.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,232
Location
Ingrija
Mitsoda always said that building a branching RPG, with plotting, consequences, fitting all the pieces together over the course of the whole project, etc. is the most complicated work in game dev.

People tend to overstate the importance of their work. Especially when that's the only thing they are capable of doing.

If you find it trivially easy to do, you should immediately start a legit studio of your own. Not being sarcastic. A DEVELOPER tag would look great on you.

Over the years he probably did more of that "fitting all the pieces together over the course of the whole project" for VTMB than the entire Troika combined, while having none of their tools.
 

Flying Dutchman

Learned
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
475
It's sadly pretty normal to see a developer create a reasonably tight-looking E3 demo vertical slice and then fall flat on their faces once they have to expand that to a full game.

I mean, Cyberpunk 2077 already looked pretty playable in that 48 minute gameplay video over two years ago, right? What's taking them so long? Similar thing.

E3: Agreed. I think it's also the case that E3 can create "pressure" to make an actual realistic slice of what the game is intended to be, but chances are the game could have been crap and off the rails before, during, and after the E3 demo - so rather than falling flat on their faces after the demo while trying to make it a full game, it's also reasonable that sometimes they were already flat on the floor and temporarily rose drunkenly, steadied themselves, made a demo, then collapsed again into the normal equilibrium of continuing to fail to make a game. There's certainly been enough fake E3 and game convention demos in the past.

Also Infinitron (not sure how to link your user name), how do I get access to assigning cool tags to posts? Inquiring minds.
 

Wesp5

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,774
Must they? What if the auteur everyone holds in awe just insists on keeping on tinkering with it, moving things around, adding a twist here, a check there...?

I believe this has to stop the moment the voice-overs are recorded, as it would be too expensive to do them over and over. But of course we don't know if they already reached that point...
 

Wesp5

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,774
On his LinkedIn, Schlutter mysteriously stopped work at Paradox in August of 2020 during the time of the cull, and began work at some German company YAGER in August of 2020.

I didn't know that, but I had never any contact with him, only with Schwarzer, who was the main producer as far as I know. He was so passionate about B2 and came out of the modding scene to begin with, so I wonder why he is still there...
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Must they? What if the auteur everyone holds in awe just insists on keeping on tinkering with it, moving things around, adding a twist here, a check there...?

I believe this has to stop the moment the voice-overs are recorded, as it would be too expensive to do them over and over. But of course we don't know if they already reached that point...

I have heard of situations where writers kept discovering continuity problems that required further revisions, which needed new recording sessions, which got hella expensive. The usual outcome is that large swathes of tangled dialogue are cut, already recorded VO and all.

Obviously I have no way of knowing if this is the case here or even if it's likely. I just think that it's not possible to rule it out either: in a narrative heavy game, the narrative team can definitely cause serious problems for production very deep into the project.
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
15,998
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre

Ismaul

Thought Criminal #3333
Patron
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
1,871,810
Location
On Patroll
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
^ This made me think about the cut lines Kreia has in the KOTOR2 files, but the freaky thing is that Atris's voice actress voices them. Wonder what kind of narrative mix-ups resulted in that happening.
Probably was the original VA for Kreia and was recast as Atris.
Boring!

This is more fun:
Kreia dies but takes posession of Atris' body.
Kreia was Atris all along.
Atris was Kreia all along.
You're gay!
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom