Decline Does full camera control add any benefit to "isometric"-style cRPGs?

[Lord_Potato]

The few isometric games with fixed camera that have been published during the last several years are: Pillars of Eternity 1&2, Tyranny, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Underrail, Disco Elysium (propably I'm missing two or three titles). I've never seen them criticized for lack of clarity.

You are fucking blind then.

Ok, which games then?

I'm obviously not blind, I don't have problems with clarity in these games

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I hate rotating camera with a passion.

 

[NJClaw]

not because you can't rotate your camera

because codex is too dumb not to know the concept of getting a better angle to be able to see shit?

A better angle does nothing against two thousand oversaturated visual effects covering the entire screen at the same time. It's not like you can rotate the camera and everything magically stops being blurry.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

not because you can't rotate your camera

because codex is too dumb not to know the concept of getting a better angle to be able to see shit?

just get a better camera angle bro

 

[NJClaw]

just get a better camera angle bro

Maybe the visual effect on that lighting bolt is two-dimensional, and you can find a way to very precisely rotate the camera so that the view is parallel to the effect and you see nothing.

 

[jungl]

nothing wrong with free camera. Character models and other graphics apparently look a lot less like shit in WotR so it will be cool to see that stuff in action in different perspectives.

 

[Quillon]

A better angle does nothing against two thousand oversaturated visual effects covering the entire screen at the same time. It's not like you can rotate the camera and everything magically stops being blurry.

They are not mutually exclusive. What if there is a tree, a building, a dragon etc and your party is behind it?

not because you can't rotate your camera

because codex is too dumb not to know the concept of getting a better angle to be able to see shit?

just get a better camera angle bro

if you could look at this scene from the left side you'd be able to see the overlapping characters left of that effect, even the state icons are blocking other characters from this angle

 

[Tyranicon]

Full disclosure: I removed full camera control from my current game because I didn't want to decorate extra walls, etc.

It's a lot of extra work tbh. I'm lazy.

 

[Takamori]

I don't mind much if there is keybind to reset the camera easily to its "vanilla" position.

 

[agris]

they get criticized because of this

Spoiler

not because you can't rotate your camera

Looks like the Numanuma school of UI design.

Regarding camera: I'm pretty removed from mainstream / popular RPGs on this board, but from solely reading threads here, it sounds like a cargo cult design decision.

My own experience is that the cameras in AoD and Silent Storm allowed full control, and were quite good. Yes, I liked the AoD camera. It made precise control easy when needed, but mostly you just leave it in a fixed perspective.

Silent Storm is a strategy RPG-thing, so probably not what OP is really thinking of.

From a theoretical perspective, most iso-type RPGs do not need a variable camera, and it does feel like wasted development resources as well as resulting in maps designed without a specific perspective in mind. That being said, playing some strategy RPG-things like Hard West or nuXcom 1 with the fixed 90 degree rotation intervals was rage inducing. Either give me Xenonauts-style maps where there's a fixed perspective which assets and map design take into account, or give me free control of pitch, yaw and zoom ala AoD. edit: and don't give it to me unless I actually need it, ala SS.

I maintain that DOS1 was cancer, I fail to see the appeal. The camera was un-noteable to me in the context of the garish UI, horrendous art style, poor attempt at irrelevance in the writing style, and korean-MMO tier garbage itemization system. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[J1M]

One of the strange things I saw touted as a feature in the new Pathfinder game is full camera control. Does it really add anything? I generally find games with a fixed camera to be easier to navigate and don't have to spend any time fiddling around with the camera. I tend not to lose track of things like in similar games with full camera control. From a developer's perspective, the designers never have to worry about the game being looked at from any viewpoint except the one the camera is fixed to.

The developers themselves admit having a rotating camera introduces issues for the player

Next on our list is the camera. In Pathfinder: Kingmaker camera was static, so there were no issues related to positioning and pivoting it, while in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous you will be able to rotate the camera. We had plans to add a button to return a camera into its default position. After discussing the feedback we decided to add sensitivity sliders, so you can set up the rotation speed of your camera. We are also planning to add a compass — which was one of the most requested features — to make it easier to navigate levels and local maps.

Exactly who is this feature appealing to and what's the reason you like it? It seems like nothing more than a gimmick.

Spoiler

Obligatory NWN2 camera reference

Producers like this feature because it allows them to take nice screenshots without needing to involve developers each time. But they don't have the restraint to improve the player experience by leaving it in the debug options. The lure of another feature on the back of the box is too high.

As others have noted, once it is a promised feature all sorts of resources need to go into ensuring levels can be viewed from any angle and it becomes a drain on production speed.

Even worse when there is no 'reset camera' key so it becomes impossible for most players to see the visuals as they were intended.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

It lets you use more than 2 sides of a room. Dimensions of a space can also be smaller and more flexible. Being able to orient yourself as you desire can be helpful in some tactical situations.

In general, its its going to permit more creative area design. D:OS1 some need perspective puzzles in Cyseal.

 

[Ol' Willy]

What if there is a tree, a building, a dragon etc and your party is behind it?

 

[Quillon]

What if there is a tree, a building, a dragon etc and your party is behind it?

now post the transparent dragon

 

[Skdursh]

I don't really care either way and I mean honestly if the "legendary" RPGs of your youth all featured full rotating cameras and the norm became fixed you'd likely be complaining about how it's regression and fixed cameras are retarded.

 

[Sentinel]

Codex demands fixed camera then posts 34567890678945678 posts about how they can't see shit when it hits the fan.

This guy doesn't understand how particles work.

 

[Quillon]

Codex demands fixed camera then posts 34567890678945678 posts about how they can't see shit when it hits the fan.

This guy doesn't understand how particles work.

No, you guys don't understand how overlapping characters work lmao. You see when you're in a fixed angle there'll be moments where characters line up in a certain way they'll overlap, they and their UI objects block one another, and you won't be able to do shit without being able to rotate the cam. Otherwise I already acknowledge overblown vfx is an issue but its not the only issue.

 

[Ol' Willy]

No, you guys don't understand how overlapping characters work lmao. You see when you're in a fixed angle there'll be moments where characters line up in a certain way they'll overlap, they and their UI objects block one another, and you won't be able to do shit without being able to rotate the cam.

Highlighting/reverse highlighting. Allows you to select objects on different "layers"

 

[Dishonoredbr]

I played a lot of Shadowrun and Deadfire , and never had a problem with the camera. If anything , CRPG needs less vfx.

 

[Quillon]

Highlighting/reverse highlighting. Allows you to select objects on different "layers"

Reverse highlighting doesn't make characters/big enemies invisible.

Rotating the camera also allows you to select objects easily, even allows you to workaround the vfx; by default you see more of the vfx with fixed cam with in the cone angle like \_/, you can potentially see it as a much smaller "O" from 90 degree angle or just go and see behind it.

Also go see a therapist for your rotatable cam traumas from past titles with poor implementations.

 

[Lord of Riva]

Is that an honest question? It adds visually to the game you can see the world from different angles and make it visually more consistent. It can easily add to those who base their decisions on the visual aspects of a game.

The more interesting question would then be if making the game more appealing in this regard is beneficial even more when we consider the negative aspects of this, which have been mentioned and the additional work it costs.

I would say for all hence and forth this is not really an issue with any kind of impact that would matter for the game, all aspects it does affect are rather small.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Reverse highlighting doesn't make characters/big enemies invisible.

No, it makes characters behind them visible by showing their outline, with regular and reverse highlighting for selection.

 

[Darkzone]

Reverse highlighting doesn't make characters/big enemies invisible.

No, it makes characters behind them visible by showing their outline, with regular and reverse highlighting for selection.

Spoiler

That is a clusterfuck. Alone the "free" rotation of the camera by 90° would solve this problem of searching for the right pixel to hit the right enemy or to enter the right field.

 

[d1r]

Free camera was super fun the last time I played Divinity OS2 without the "Highlight Items" hotkey. So you actually had to use the camera to explore areas and find items. It's definitely nice to have.

 

[Terra]

Not a crpg, but it immediately struck me how much more laborious a free camera is when they added it to C & C Generals. It's so easy to lose track of where you/other things are. Added to that you have the dual sins of a potentially rotating minimap to further complicate matters as well as the representation of your camera's frustum on the minimap, which may also rotate/scale to add a further layer of complication. I definitely don't need this in my crpgs and besides that it less dev work to make things look decent from a single camera angle/perspective.