Achievements in Gaming (Achievements and the cRPG)

[Jim Profit]

I like achievements just the way they are. Where they're easy, and some are hard, and they only exist for bragging rights.

 

[flabbyjack]

Achievement unlocked: The Wimp - Finish the game without having entered combat

 

[cutterjohn]

Achievements are for ADDHD tards...

 

[piydek]

achievements don't work for RPGs of any kind. that's useless.

but they can work VERY well for arcade games. only they have to be meaningful and actually - which is rare - fucking HARD to achieve. along with the "leaderboards" this is the mechanism that has the possibility to return mechanisms similar to high-score lists, fighting for some particular skill, it's just pure arcade fun if done right.

And i always like the high-scores hunting with my friends back in the C64/Amiga games. But they have to be right games for that. Achievements in RPGs....such as Dragon Age for example are just a ridiculous concept. It doesn't work for RPGs and RPGs gain nothing from them.

Achievements are for ADDHD tards...

That's stupid, achievements system has good potential in the right game-environment.

 

[syllopsium]

Depends on how it's done..

I don't mind it too much in games like Trine, which are more of
an arcade game than a proper RPG. Still, I think they can work in
proper RPGs too - especially non arcadey slightly obsessive ones like
Nethack.

They could definitely work in a conventional RPG without breaking the
fourth wall - having a series of 'most wanted' posters, or people
talk about your achievements is a large part of what some RPGs are
about.

I would agree with everyone else, that an achievement has to require
effort; you shouldn't get many awards for just coasting through the
game.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Reputations and perks aren't achievements. They have real in-game consequences.

 

[random_encounter]

The problem with achievements isn't their existence, but intentional retardo of the gameplay so you can get them all. I mean, some shooters have achievement for losing X times in multiplayer. You can guess how that ends up.

Even the skill-challenged need some love.

They should add a secondary voice track for those to help keep people motivated. "Way to lose, playa! You NAILED that shit! I've never seen anyone eat headshots like that, you a mofuckin' magnet!"

I wouldn't want a voice track if only I've seen something like this already in Crackdown 2. It got fucking annoying having a disembodied voice announce your achievements. If people alreaady think a pop-in is annoying, the voice would be aggravating.

New titles are required to offer 50.000 gamerscore, or something like that.

Depends. Windows Live/Games for Windows enabled titles considered as major releases (Fallout 3, Alpha Protocol) have a minimum requirement of 1000. Add-ons can add on to that (as in Fallout's DLCs) but the criteria for how many each DLC can carry varies.

Rewarding the unskilled is the direct effect, which I don't mind, as it's fun to have the game mock you for being a failure now and then (even though that might hurt today's kids fragile egos). But there are terrible, terrible implications.

Even skilled players started losing games on purpose, or intentionally being a dead weight, hoping their team loses.

Achievements that cater to that crowd aren't as pervasive as others that reward dumb progress. For the most part, achievements have relied on players doing things such as simply reaching a milestone that everyone can get to (killing a boss) or completing a tutorial.

A more extreme example of the scenario you imply is easily found with the Modern Warfare crowd with people setting up private sessions to basically sit around and get shot for certain achievements and then cry why they get their asses kicked against 'real' gamers in public matches.

But why bother? People with too much money can always buy ego points on Ebay and have someone do it for them instead. Just like gold farming.

So how about 5 or 10 achievements, each giving 5000 to 10.000 gamerscore, and most of them are rather hard to get (except for the obvious "completed the mainquest" one)?

Would that be theoretically possible?

Yes, to some extent. Unfortunately, I have to point to JRPGs as an example. Tales of Vesperia awarded achievements for killing bosses in certain ways, or with specific characters, and the achievements were listed as "secret" which meant that you normally have no idea just what the conditions were unless you looked at an online guide. If you saved past a boss and had no recourse to get back to it, the only other way to get it was to replay the x number of hours to try it again.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I wouldn't want a voice track if only I've seen something like this already in Crackdown 2. It got fucking annoying having a disembodied voice announce your achievements. If people alreaady think a pop-in is annoying, the voice would be aggravating.

Yes, I can see what you're meaning - if it were as constant as something like the voices announcing your kill streaks in Unreal Tournament - but I was half being facetious and half considering something that was really only for the loser non-achievements (e.g. lose X games, die X times in multiplayer, etc.). It strikes me that that sort of thing should have some sort of negative value if it's included at all even if it's in the form of annoying or belittling the player. Sort of like having the game point out "Holy shit you suck!" much like a buddy might have if you were getting owned at an arcade machine or the like. I suppose that there are games that kind of do this already such as when they display, "You have died. Switch to easy? Yes/No" I think anyone with self respect goes



Personally, I'd rather not have easy achievements or achievements for losing anyway. I don't mind that they're there, but I think they should at least be somewhat significant.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The voice in Crackdown announces your every step, usually said 2 or 3 sentences, and played for every powerup you got in a fast paced game full of powerups. Not a good example.

 

[random_encounter]

It strikes me that that sort of thing should have some sort of negative value if it's included at all even if it's in the form of annoying or belittling the player. Sort of like having the game point out "Holy shit you suck!" much like a buddy might have if you were getting owned at an arcade machine or the like. I suppose that there are games that kind of do this already such as when they display, "You have died. Switch to easy? Yes/No"

I would also like to see something where more RPGs/games would go back to internalizing the achievements and extend them further out into the actual setting. Hearing comments, reading postings on the local village board, or picking up news on the 'net in a sci-fi setting on your embarrassments or actions would adds to the atmosphere without breaking the immersion and possibly open up new options. Having one of the locals call you a loser and then have that reputation spread if you decide to do nothing about it would be more interesting than dinging a player with only points, I think.

With arcade games, though, I remember insults like that made some of them a lot of fun. In Sinistar, I loved how the main baddie mocked you throughout the game. On my previous example, Crackdown 2, the Voice begins to get insulting if you screw up enough. At one point, he asked what the fuck was wrong with me after failing a certain mission so many times.

Sad part is that there are games out there that offer to lower the difficulty level if you're encountering too hard a time, like God of War III. Die enough, and it will ask you if you want to switch. Or you have games like Bioshock that make death/failure irrelevant thanks to Vita Chambers unless you opt not to use them.

The voice in Crackdown announces your every step, usually said 2 or 3 sentences, and played for every powerup you got in a fast paced game full of powerups. Not a good example.

The second one is relevant because in addition to the voice over the announcer normally does, they pushed to have the Voice announce the achievements themselves in the sequel in addition to the "ding" pop up that accompanies them. Likely because the fans who liked the Voice before would love to have even more if it now.

 

[Nihilism]

Achievements are simply a platform of recognition for what gamers have been doing from the beginning. If you don't care for them, then you probably weren't the type to collect every coin in Super Mario Bros., or every possible heart container in Zelda; and if you're not, then ignore their presence as much you would a lighter shade of green in your turds. They're there for those who want them, and they're hardly a hindrance for those who don't.

 

[Zombra]

This was the only thread I could find discussing the general phenomenon of gaming "achievements".

Fuck achievements, seriously.

Achievement grinders deserve all the pain they get and more.

Achievements are fun if they are a challenge to get. I do think getting achievements for just advancing in the story is a bit boring...

Story achievements have a place, even in a linear game. For example, if you look at a game and see that 60% of players completed Chapter Four but only 3% completed Chapter Five, that tells you something.

 

[oldmanpaco]

I like chivos.

 

[Butter]

There's nothing inherently wrong with achievements, however it's very tempting for devs to use them as an extra source of dopamine for the player. You made a bowl of soup! You're so fucking cool! People are going to see your "achievement" and think about how fucking cool you are.

 

[Grauken]

Story achievements have a place, even in a linear game. For example, if you look at a game and see that 60% of players completed Chapter Four but only 3% completed Chapter Five, that tells you something.

I think that's arguably more important for the devs than the players. That said a good achievement structure tells you how far along in a game you are, which sometimes is a good thing to know (depending on whether you enjoy the game or not)

 

[oldmanpaco]

You made a bowl of soup! You're so fucking cool! People are going to see your "achievement" and think about how fucking cool you are.

I finished POE1 with Expert, Iron Man, and PotD just to get the Frozen Crown chivo. People saw that and realized I'm a pretty cool dude.

 

[Ol' Willy]

I want to point out that Fallout 2 doesn't have "achievements", it has reputation titles that affect the game directly. Childkiller, for example, cuts you off from a lot of companions and some dialogue choices.

 

[Maxie]

I play games for achievements exclusively and have a guide open at all times so that u don't miss any achievement
Fact: a game without achievements of s most likely some gay walking and talking sim for storyfags and delusional boomers

 

[Riddler]

I don't care about achievements in RPGs but there are some instances where I like them.

I think they work well in the context of games such as EUIV for goal setting in an otherwise freeform game. Functionally it's the same as mission objectives.

 

[Van-d-all]

Never cared about them, but I like their statistical aspect to get a peek on how other people play games.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

It's been years since I've seen an achievement pop-up. I've got the steam notification for them disabled and GOG stuff don't usually have em when you play without Galaxy. They do not add anything to the experience. I have one exception, and that is New Vegas's in-built achievment system. I like it because it gives you perks and rewards.

 

[Zombra]

I remember more innocent times, when achievements first existed. In 2007, Valve released the Orange Box, including Team Fortress 2. My old Team Fortress Classic community had drifted apart by then and I was looking forward to the new game, although no one I knew played, so I cruised public servers. TF2 had these little badges, achievements they were called, meaningless "good job" stickers that showed up on the DRM shell for the game. Very simple stuff, like getting a lifetime total of 25 headshots, or play a round with each class. It was fun getting them, and like good achievements should, they inspired me to try some different things and learn the game better.

But one of them required a dramatic, even radical shift in my thinking.

Having no friends on Steam, this challenge appeared insurmountable. But I liked getting the stickers, so when I saw players I recognized on a server with good ping, I started sending friend invites, basically to strangers, something an introvert like myself would never ever do without an incentive. Long story short, this ultimately led to joining a vibrant community of dozens, if not hundreds of players, which lasted for years; a big party in real life, including a tour of the Valve offices; and although the community was ultimately dissolved, a few friendships that last to this day.

Would all of this have happened without that dumb achievement? Maybe something like it - or maybe I would have missed the boat entirely. Who can say?

Point is, they're not always bad.

 

[JarlFrank]

Help me

These days, I like to hunt achievements

But only the cool ones that are challenging, not the grindy ones like "kill 1000 orcs"

 

[Ash]

dug up an old post, now with new additions:

My thoughts as to why achievements are awful, with special mention of why they are extra awful in the context of Deus Ex or a classic RPG in general:

I'm against them because a) old games would often just have "unlockable" content instead of achievements. A challenge for which you get an actual reward. Achievements often simply replace that content these days. b) They spawned "achievement hunters", people that buy (and therefore support the creation of) bad games just to farm the game's achievements. Essentially it is an industry ploy to get autistic retards buying more games and generally more involved with the meta. They also result in the same retards ignoring certain games that DONT have achievements, regardless of if they're good games or not. "No achievements, no buy!". Fuck, most other people blow. c) for some games, like Deus Ex, they encourage grinding/farming/generally out of character behavior to unlock the achievements. Instead of potentially viewing NPCs as living beings, you view them as one of "kill 50 NPCs with a throwing knife". Lastly, d) the pop-up itself can take you out of the game, in games where things are supposed to be immersive. Yes, you can disable the pop-up (on steam, at least), but many are not going to consider why this should be done, and nor should they be expected to.

These things aside they're ok for stat tracking, seeing what friends are up to. But otherwise devs should implement their own challenge and rewards system if that is the type of game they're aiming for or something they value. It's not something a horror game should really have forced upon it, but an arcade game it fits.