Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Underrail: The Incline Awakens

Trash Player

Scholar
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Messages
438
Still a difference of 220% critical damage.
I see. But still, it's a question of "crit more" or "crit heavier". With SI, of course speccing CP would be the optimal choice, but I played as a conlet. And I really needed these crits because base damage is crap. Bladelings and Shrooms were pain exactly because of this.
Wait, you haven't figured out they are immue to crits? And dealt with them by plinking them?

Edit: I failed to read. Nevermind.
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,711
Location
Secret Level
You'd need to make a test char and shoot Gorsky a whole bunch to determine that.
So now my character plinked a few times at Gorsky and it seems like the high technicalities bonus is multiplicative with the guns skill bonus, and critical bonus gets applied afterwards.
Set up: low quality laser pistol with average damage 14. The actual average damage dealt to Gorsky was 31, with a 100% critical bonus doubled for 62. Guns skill is bonus for this character according to wiki (no idea if the wiki is right here) should be a ca. 1.47 multiplier, high technicalities at 11 int should be 1.48, which seems to be about right: 14x1.47x1.48 is 30.5.

Someone more advanced at math can do the comparison for specialization points vs. critical power. Though technically you can get both if you play on classic (high technicalities is only 5 points), since reaching max level is not a problem.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
24,574
Location
Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
So, for a change I started full wizard run. Went Psychosis route, but somewhere along the way I realized the critical mistake I made: while distributing stat points, I specced W and INT, as necessary, with leftovers put into AG - for stealth, MP and stuff. But damage output is low, critical chance is not high and 3 CON means no Survival Instincts.
facepalm.png


Question to more experienced wizard players: so, the damage will catch up or the build is crippled? I calculated that I will be able to raise critical chance up to 70%, but this will come late in the game and there's a lot of stuff to do earlier.
 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,278
So, for a change I started full wizard run. Went Psychosis route, but somewhere along the way I realized the critical mistake I made: while distributing stat points, I specced W and INT, as necessary, with leftovers put into AG - for stealth, MP and stuff. But damage output is low, critical chance is not high and 3 CON means no Survival Instincts.
facepalm.png


Question to more experienced wizard players: so, the damage will catch up or the build is crippled? I calculated that I will be able to raise critical chance up to 70%, but this will come late in the game and there's a lot of stuff to do earlier.
You can't raise psi critical chance with stats, you will rely on Psionic Mania and a good crafted headband to get crits.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
So, for a change I started full wizard run. Went Psychosis route, but somewhere along the way I realized the critical mistake I made: while distributing stat points, I specced W and INT, as necessary, with leftovers put into AG - for stealth, MP and stuff. But damage output is low, critical chance is not high and 3 CON means no Survival Instincts.
facepalm.png


Question to more experienced wizard players: so, the damage will catch up or the build is crippled? I calculated that I will be able to raise critical chance up to 70%, but this will come late in the game and there's a lot of stuff to do earlier.

SI is most useful early game, later on you won't miss it - after >20 lvl you'd not even bother with it.
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,711
Location
Secret Level
So, for a change I started full wizard run. Went Psychosis route, but somewhere along the way I realized the critical mistake I made: while distributing stat points, I specced W and INT, as necessary, with leftovers put into AG - for stealth, MP and stuff. But damage output is low, critical chance is not high and 3 CON means no Survival Instincts.
facepalm.png


Question to more experienced wizard players: so, the damage will catch up or the build is crippled? I calculated that I will be able to raise critical chance up to 70%, but this will come late in the game and there's a lot of stuff to do earlier.

SI is most useful early game, later on you won't miss it - after >20 lvl you'd not even bother with it.
Agreed, my psychosis wizard never bothered with SI mid-game and later. Once you get past mutant depot, you can make do with just one casting of mania. Get creative with tnt and bear traps, and on most maps you'll be able to lure all enemies for one big explosion.

Small tip: play it friendly with pirates in the expedition. Katya has a great choice of drug ingredients for sale, including for trance.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
24,574
Location
Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
That's reassuring. But pray tell me, before The Big Nerf:

- there was no innervation window, allowing you to use any spell at any time?
- no psi-reserves thing, allowing for free mana regeneration and unlimited use of Psi-boosters?

And you people didn't see the nerf coming?
 

Ghulgothas

Arcane
Joined
Feb 22, 2020
Messages
1,598
Location
So Below
Does Locus of Control gel well with Psychosis/Psionic Mania? I'm trying plot out how to get the psi-side of my Psientist build more up to snuff and I'm wondering how it would play with some of the other schools.

EDIT: Nevermind remembered it only works with Thought Control.

What's more fun to play with, Metathermics or Psychokinetics?
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
That's reassuring. But pray tell me, before The Big Nerf:

- there was no innervation window, allowing you to use any spell at any time?
- no psi-reserves thing, allowing for free mana regeneration and unlimited use of Psi-boosters?

And you people didn't see the nerf coming?

People have been calling for wizard nerfs since release. He nerfed everything but it, while it was the worst offender.

Tbh I don't think the changes will hit PSI too hard, but they will make it much more boring.

Does Locus of Control gel well with Psychosis/Psionic Mania? I'm trying plot out how to get the psi-side of my Psientist build more up to snuff and I'm wondering how it would play with some of the other schools.

EDIT: Nevermind remembered it only works with Thought Control.

It's worth getting even if you never cast a TC ability.
 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,278
That's reassuring. But pray tell me, before The Big Nerf:

- there was no innervation window, allowing you to use any spell at any time?
- no psi-reserves thing, allowing for free mana regeneration and unlimited use of Psi-boosters?

And you people didn't see the nerf coming?

Psi was less overpowered before Expedition added Temporal Manipulation, new items, new feats and specialization.
It didn't urgently need nerfs unless you were a minmaxer, and if you were you could break the game with traps, assault rifles, fist weapons... whatever. Fist and rifles were also notorious for requiring significantly less oversight than psi, leading more players to main them.

Basically you would just run out of psi and the booster would be on cooldown, the most common average player complaint regarding psi. So either you had created a good build with fallbacks that could handle enemies at 0 psi, or you would suffer. Again, provided you were not a minmaxer freak that would break the game anyway with a different build.
 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,278
I would have liked to have seen the vintage psi system in action tbh.

The way it worked was
- specializing in all schools at once was made difficult by each school having a dedicated base stat rather than just Will https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wisdom
- psi did not regenerate naturally, you would have to find psi boosters to cast just like System Shock 2, possibly with the option of getting psi directly from shrooms with the Shroomhead feat https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Shroomhead
- psi boosters worked differently, giving less psi immediately on use, then some more psi over time

These things were reworked to make the psi system cleaner and more user friendly, but they also made psi stronger. Unfortunately this set up a pretty complex and irritating nerf for psi much later.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
I would have liked to have seen the vintage psi system in action tbh.

The way it worked was
- specializing in all schools at once was made difficult by each school having a dedicated base stat rather than just Will https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wisdom
- psi did not regenerate naturally, you would have to find psi boosters to cast just like System Shock 2, possibly with the option of getting psi directly from shrooms with the Shroomhead feat https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Shroomhead
- psi boosters worked differently, giving less psi immediately on use, then some more psi over time

These things were reworked to make the psi system cleaner and more user friendly, but they also made psi stronger. Unfortunately this set up a pretty complex and irritating nerf for psi much later.

You might be able to find an ancient alpha version or demo somewhere if you really want to give the old psi system a go. Alpha version 0.1.13 was the last with old psi system. But you won't find a psi system quite like you described.

The first playable iteration of psi system was stronger and less fun than the regen system. Wisdom and Charisma were already cut back then, so psi already had the problem that it only needed one base ability for everything. Psi didn't regenerate, but instead your psi pool scaled from Will. It was so huge that you could never run out of psi in a fight. Psi cost didn't matter at all when choosing what to invoke and psi boosters were just cheap goldsinks that you pop between fights - or you could just abuse shroomhead and fight with free 40% psi pool, it was often enough. Psi abilities also generally had longer ranges, to the point where it was always enough and you never had to worry about your movement. Styg tweaked the ranges a bit after the move to regen-based psi and that gave the psi abilities a bit more character - cryokinesis would be the sniper ability, tk punch would be close to melee punching, and so forth.

The reasons for those changes were a bit different. I can't say for sure what was going on during pre-alpha, but it seems to me that the removal of Charisma and Wisdom was mainly motivated by lack of uses for social stats in a combat-heavy game, not so much to streamline psi. The regen system was brought back (yes, back) to make psi costs meaningful; this both nerfed psi and nade it more interesting to play. Shroomhead got cut because it just didn't work with regen and it never worked well in the first place. It only encouraged degenerate gameplay like backtracking to shrooms after every fight.

Short history of psi:
2009-2012: Internal pre-alpha. Psi had 3 stats and regen. In hindsight, getting rid of 2 psi stats was a huge mistake. But it was done in very early development stage, the stat system back then was quite different.
2013-2014: Early public alpha. Will only, no regen, huge psi pool.
2015-2020: Late alpha to Underrail 1.2. The psi regen system most underrailers know. In hindsight, a long-term psi resource should've been added along with this system.
2020+: Vancian cave wizards.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Started a new run, after I lost my 130+ hour savegame. (F)
https://underrail.info/build/?HgMMA...AeAEABFygWMB4zwppLUylaJhHCtMKkTuKnvgritJQF378

It's a homebrew energy weapons run where I didn't look up any guides for help (so the breakpoints aren't exact or anything, and the 12 Dex 11 Perception and 13 Intelligence probably are a bit unorthodox).
But I think it should beat the game just fine on Dom, especially using classic XP.

The reasoning for 12 Dex was that with Gunslinger, this should allow me to fire a laser pistol 4 times or a plasma pistol two times (6/3 with the buff consumable) and is a lesser investment than 15 to shoot the laser 5 times --- provided the breakpoints I saw in some thread from 2014 are still correct for that.
11 Perception is just for that Expedition Scrutinous feat, and 13 Intelligence is basically just for the lulz; apparently it doesn't make a huge difference whether you level Perception or Intelligence when it comes to damage using High Technicalities, so I might as well level Intelligence for fun so I 100% can craft anything I desire without spending many skill points.

I didn't think too much about the feats. Is Gun Nut a must? And I heard Execute isn't terribly useful but I thought it'd be fun, especially if it works against EMP'd robots.
 

Sheepherder

Augur
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
657
Started a new run, after I lost my 130+ hour savegame. (F)
https://underrail.info/build/?HgMMA...AeAEABFygWMB4zwppLUylaJhHCtMKkTuKnvgritJQF378

It's a homebrew energy weapons run where I didn't look up any guides for help (so the breakpoints aren't exact or anything, and the 12 Dex 11 Perception and 13 Intelligence probably are a bit unorthodox).
But I think it should beat the game just fine on Dom, especially using classic XP.

The reasoning for 12 Dex was that with Gunslinger, this should allow me to fire a laser pistol 4 times or a plasma pistol two times (6/3 with the buff consumable) and is a lesser investment than 15 to shoot the laser 5 times --- provided the breakpoints I saw in some thread from 2014 are still correct for that.
11 Perception is just for that Expedition Scrutinous feat, and 13 Intelligence is basically just for the lulz; apparently it doesn't make a huge difference whether you level Perception or Intelligence when it comes to damage using High Technicalities, so I might as well level Intelligence for fun so I 100% can craft anything I desire without spending many skill points.

I didn't think too much about the feats. Is Gun Nut a must? And I heard Execute isn't terribly useful but I thought it'd be fun, especially if it works against EMP'd robots.
Gunslinger and Gun Nut don't work with e. pistols.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
What, really? Great, two more feats.
Picked Recklessness and Pack Rathound.
 
Last edited:

Sheepherder

Augur
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
657
Yup, and Execute will not work on EMP'd robots. Only Cryostasis enables Execute on robots, meaning that Dreadnoughts and Nagas cannot be executed.
Also, get Recklessness. Point Shot is also good. Sharpshooter is good, but you'll be moving a lot, so it'll function as alpha strike only feat, so you can put it off for later. Get Power Management earlier, it'll cut down on the AP you spend on reloading. Get the other e. pistol feats earlier as well, they help a lot.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
While I am sure that sounds like fun, it also seems like not required overkill. Even on Dominating, enemies didn't really have that many HP. And with Carnifex, I can just put a bear trap down and shoot him a few times instead of 2-shotting him.
I can always try it out and take it if I end up really liking it. Can always sacrifice pack rathound, especially since I won't be carrying 50000 grenades and 5000 bear traps anymore.
 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,278
The reasons for those changes were a bit different. I can't say for sure what was going on during pre-alpha, but it seems to me that the removal of Charisma and Wisdom was mainly motivated by lack of uses for social stats in a combat-heavy game, not so much to streamline psi. The regen system was brought back (yes, back) to make psi costs meaningful; this both nerfed psi and nade it more interesting to play. Shroomhead got cut because it just didn't work with regen and it never worked well in the first place. It only encouraged degenerate gameplay like backtracking to shrooms after every fight.

Short history of psi:
2009-2012: Internal pre-alpha. Psi had 3 stats and regen. In hindsight, getting rid of 2 psi stats was a huge mistake. But it was done in very early development stage, the stat system back then was quite different.
2013-2014: Early public alpha. Will only, no regen, huge psi pool.
2015-2020: Late alpha to Underrail 1.2. The psi regen system most underrailers know. In hindsight, a long-term psi resource should've been added along with this system.
2020+: Vancian cave wizards.


Nice to see the full history of things, I can definitely imagine psi being even stronger at certain points.
I don't agree though that a secondary psi resource was necessary, magic in the vast majority of games is balanced with just one resource, whether it's a limited amount of casts or some type of mana. You certainly don't need two resources and also limits on what you can cast.

The path I would have taken is move more things to INT, so that only INT controls psi pool and psi regen and WIL has no effect on it at all, such that you want at least 10 in both and have to choose between magic power and stamina.
That is already more demanding than a guns build, where STR only needs to rise to 5-6-7 if that, and you can fully rely on PER as the main stat, raising it to 18 or some ridiculous amount, and the build works like a well-oiled machine with mostly dumped stats.

From there you can do a few more things if they're still necessary, like making Psychokinesis more reliant on Strength, so you can't have those 3,000 damage punches without investing in other stats, that type of thing.
 

Stavrophore

Most trustworthy slavic man
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
12,608
Location
don't identify with EU-NPC land
Strap Yourselves In

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom