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Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

Absinthe

Arcane
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Jan 6, 2012
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4,062
No, just the ones who advertise how bad they are, like yourself.

If you haven't figured out how to play Fighter yet of all classes I don't know what to tell you.
Desiderius, if you honestly haven't realized how spellcasters shit on non-casters from on high, then you are the one who is blatantly bad at the game. I get that if everyone sucks it is easy to feel relevant with a bit of effort but there is a reason why people cite this stupid skit as a demonstration of the problem with putting, say, a Summoner or Druid and a Fighter in the same party:


Really, any competent primary spellcaster can go on a summoning spree or pull hordes of magical solutions to their problems. And Fighters really do become redundant. The problem isn't that it's impossible for Fighters to do consistent damage with their auto-attacks. The problem is that even if they do, it's easy to horribly overshadow them and still shit out all kinds bullshit powers that they can never compete with.
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Animal Companions suck a lot of resources to stay competitive and clog up your frontlines where well-built melee toons outshine them by midgame. I use one, but no more.

To evaluate game design I play the game as designed, not solo.

Summons also clog up the battlefield and do little damage of their own. They're a useful strategic option against mobs that aren't easily tanked on high difficulties. Otherwise they take up slots that often have better uses.

Most of your foes in the game are not people so are not easily controlled, and the most challenging foes who are are not readily mind-controlled by a Bard on high difficulties do to high Will saves. Dominate spells are full round actions which are not trivial to pull off under duress.

The only spell a Magus has that a Fighter doesn't is Mirror Image and there are ways for a Fighter to make up for that. In either case your best action economy is attacking and it takes a Magus all their spells to compete with what a Fighter brings naturally. Obv late game Sword Saint does busted things.

Fast Bombs is interesting in that it is OP for that fight but also quickly runs through your resources. On a meta-KM level I just stick to slow bombs so I can use them strategically each fight to minimize rest.

As for Divinations, are you another butthurt PnPer who doesn't even like the PnP?

That's a whole different level.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
No, just the ones who advertise how bad they are, like yourself.

If you haven't figured out how to play Fighter yet of all classes I don't know what to tell you.
Desiderius, if you honestly haven't realized how spellcasters shit on non-casters from on high, then you are the one who is blatantly bad at the game. I get that if everyone sucks it is easy to feel relevant with a bit of effort but there is a reason why people cite this stupid skit as a demonstration of the problem with putting, say, a primary spellcaster and a Fighter in the same party:


You can pretty much directly play out this video by playing a Summoner if you want. And Fighters really do become redundant. The problem isn't that it's impossible for Fighters to do consistent damage with their auto-attacks. The problem is that even if they do, it's easy to horribly overshadow them and still shit out all kinds bullshit powers that they can never compete with.


One of us has been spamming out screenshots of Fighters dominating the game for the last year on Unfair.

It isn't you.

Have a seat.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Of course even Fighters can't compete with Rangers:

Rangers laying the wood.jpg
 

Absinthe

Arcane
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Animal Companions suck a lot of resources to stay competitive and clog up your frontlines where well-built melee toons outshine them by midgame. I use one, but no more.
If your best argument for Fighters being good is that the Fighter gets his own share of loot to spend on staying relevant, you're really not making a good argument for Fighters. May as well give the Fighter's share of loot to the animal companion. Problem solved.

If the animal companion is getting outperformed, you're probably not buffing and gearing it properly. Stick some armor on it, buff its attack and natural armor (magic fang & barkskin & magic vestment too if your party has it), give it magic items to boost physical stats, and give it haste in combat, maybe throw on some Bard buffs, and it will do large amounts of damage per turn while the Fighter You can also make companions that can soak up damage and have high armor. If you're going to have a Fighter you'd be better off with another Druid, Sylvan Sorcerer, Cleric, Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor, or even just a Ranger. Throw a Boon Companion feat on top and the level penalty vanishes. Clerics and Inquisitors can also cast Divine Favor on their animal companions and Sylvan Sorcerers can cast Transformation and shapeshifting spells on them.

Summons also clog up the battlefield and do little damage of their own. They're a useful strategic option against mobs that aren't easily tanked on high difficulties. Otherwise they take up slots that often have better uses.
IIRC the game nerfs the better summon options and maybe you don't have celestial summons go on smiting sprees to inflict their hit dice in bonus damage on every attack, but it's easy to throw a Bard into the mix for Inspire Courage and maybe throw a Good Hope on top. Summons usually crush encounters, done right.

Most of your foes in the game are not people so are not easily controlled, and the most challenging foes who are are not readily mind-controlled by a Bard on high difficulties do to high Will saves.
Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, make your enemies shaken (can be automatic with Dirge of Doom), and it's like you got +4 to your spell DC.

Dominate spells are full round actions which are not trivial to pull off under duress.
And Bards are mages who can wear armor, put on shields, and have high dexterity scores. And that's not counting the fact that a Bard can cast Greater Invisibility at the same level it can cast Dominate Person. Not to mention they have spells like Blur, Displacement, and Mirror Image.

The only spell a Magus has that a Fighter doesn't is Mirror Image and there are ways for a Fighter to make up for that. In either case your best action economy is attacking and it takes a Magus all their spells to compete with what a Fighter brings naturally. Obv late game Sword Saint does busted things
Blur, displacement. It also gets shit like Web, Glitterdust, Slow, and Stinking Cloud if you just want to disable enemies into the ground. And it has buffs like Haste and Greater Invisibility because fuck you. And that's outside the fact that Spell Combat and spellstrike mean that you can just mash shocking grasp for more damage each round. But the AI is shit at managing this kind of thing so I'm not surprised the Magus feels underwhelming.

Fast Bombs is interesting in that it is OP for that fight but also quickly runs through your resources. On a meta-KM level I just stick to slow bombs so I can use them strategically each fight to minimize rest.
Yeah you can do that too, but brutalizing bosses is a very easy use of Alchemists. Owing to what are either bugs or deliberate design choices, fast bombs are not treated as a regular full attack, but in PnP you can just throw Two-weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot on top for ridiculous damage.

As for Divinations, are you another butthurt PnPer who doesn't even like the PnP?

That's a whole different level.
I was talking about Paizo being fail at design and you responded, so you started a PnP conversation. But sure, we can make it about the computer game.

Also, Amiri's damage is neat but that's a lucky crit (incidentally, sneak attack does not multiply on a crit in PnP) and it's easier to just have an Alchemist nuke it. It's also easier to just have a Vivisectionist for your damage dealer because the best martial damage dealers also tend to be spellcasters in that funny Pathfinder way.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
You complete and total fucktard.

You’re really going to lecture me on using an Animal Companion when I’ve been spamming pics of Okbo and Val’s Smilodon tanking and owning in the face of retards like you who’ve been crying about how hard melee is for the last year?

Yes, when they take up half a spellbook to keep them competitive they’re not as good as a Fighter but the big drawback is the lack of skills and abilities that you’ve been too dense to even explore, let alone master.

Less time jacking off to fags on YouTube, more time playing the actual fucking game you’re expounding on and there may yet be hope for you and those misled by your willful incompetence.

Yes, they also don’t benefit from equipment which is another big downside but Owlcat mostly overcompensated for that.
 

LannTheStupid

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Every tabletopper who refers to rulebooks has to provide verifiable evidence that s/he finished Pathfinder: Kingmaker on Challenging Last Azlanti.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
So, so tired of PnPers talking out of their ass on shit they have no idea about. Lucky crit, right, now do the 500 other damage. Don’t make me get out the NJClaw pics.

I can read the d20. It’s a great game. If you find certain shit unbalancing just don’t use it. Almost everything I thought was unbalancing ends up to have downsides. Even the most obvious persistent AoE ends up taking a good bit of kiting and what not that a good group doesn’t have to mess with.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Here you go:

First Fatecrit.jpg


It even has your almighty Vivi Sneak chip damage, Absinthe, now everyone should be happy.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
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You complete and total fucktard.

You’re really going to lecture me on using an Animal Companion when I’ve been spamming pics of Okbo and Val’s Smilodon tanking and owning in the face of retards like you who’ve been crying about how hard melee is for the last year?
How the fuck you manage to ego-trip this hard on playing PF: Kingmaker, I do not know, but you do you. And I never complained that melee is hard, you fucking retard. I only pointed out that in PF spellcasters are master race and if you want dumb muscle, summons and animal companions have you covered.

Yes, when they take up half a spellbook to keep them competitive they’re not as good as a Fighter but the big drawback is the lack of skills and abilities that you’ve been too dense to even explore, let alone master.
Here's the funny thing: You are comparing an entire player character to another character's class feature. Think on it. And you don't burn half a spellbook to keep ACs competitive, not unless you fucked up your build somehow and have a horribly low number of spells. (Also, Wizards don't get animal companions.)

Less time jacking off to fags on YouTube, more time playing the actual fucking game you’re expounding on and there may yet be hope for you and those misled by your willful incompetence.
I don't keep up with that shit, dumbass.

Yes, they also don’t benefit from equipment which is another big downside but Owlcat mostly overcompensated for that.
So use Mage Armor instead of light armor on the animal companion. But as a matter of fact there are ways to open an inventory screen for your animal companion and gear it silly. Animal companions have item slots like players do. Owlcat incompetence was to try to prevent players from opening the AC inventory screen, but do it right and you can open the AC's inventory screen and go to town. I guess that's bug exploitation? Honestly ACs are supposed to be able to equip items.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
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eh I'm a caster player and I'd say in terms of overall easykillines martials are better. it's almost like because character system is so powerful you can make anything work, which makes it uh "balanced"

all your argument about caster being demigods who can ruin campaigns with Divination is pointless because lol you can't in computer game so who cares?
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Various unique Melee features:

Adaptive Tactics

Adaptive Tactics.jpg


Parry

Big Parry.jpg


Armed Bravery

Glaive Fighter Will Save.jpg


Arrmor Training

GlaiveFighterAC.jpg


Trained Initiative

GlaiveFighterInitiative.jpg


Great Cleave/Improved Cleaving Finish/Dreadful Carnage

GlaiveFighterBigDamage.jpg


GlaiveFighterDreadfulCarnage Part 2.jpg

GlaiveFighterShaken Record.jpg


Pounce

Amiri 14 Pounce.jpg


Disarm

Disarm result.jpg


Dirty Trick

Dirty Tricks.jpg
 

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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Come in here swinging your dick around and can't back it up you get smacked down.

Not about ego trip, it's about getting the facts right and stopping noobs getting fooled by tough talking clueless dipshits.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
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I think melee could do more with combat maneuvres. they were a bit strange due to bugginess and DCs etc. I hope in Wrath the numbers will become reasonable. maybe they should do companion whos build is about them. that would be cool + teach players on interesting builds for martials.

also now you can ride horse or whatever and train armies. definitely good roleplaying ground there for a traditional AD&D fighter or paladin.
 

Absinthe

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Honestly ACs are supposed to be able to equip items.
I would like to see your dog in plate armour.
Open map and press I while hovering the animal companion.

Come in here swinging your dick around and can't back it up you get smacked down.

Not about ego trip, it's about getting the facts right and stopping noobs getting fooled by tough talking clueless dipshits.
Bitch please. You're just here to be a cum-guzzling fanboy and shittalk anyone who points out this game has some seriously fucking stupid issues. I pointed out spellcasters shit all over martials, and you've been asspained since.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I think melee could do more with combat maneuvres. they were a bit strange due to bugginess and DCs etc. I hope in Wrath the numbers will become reasonable. maybe they should do companion whos build is about them. that would be cool + teach players on interesting builds for martials.

also now you can ride horse or whatever and train armies. definitely good roleplaying ground there for a traditional AD&D fighter or paladin.

You can do CMs in P:K, though as Standard Actions they often weren't competitive. In CotW they replaced attax and were fine.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Assplained indeed. You can point all you like, just makes you a retard when you're pointing to your own suckitude.

"Hurr Durr, I can't play melee toons, casters rule."

Not fooling anybody.

Here's the funny thing: You are comparing an entire player character to another character's class feature.

No, I'm pointing out how fucking clueless you are about that entire class, indeed martials in general.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
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Jan 6, 2012
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4,062
I don't keep up with that shit, dumbass.

You posted the cringe vid, not me.
The cringe vid's been posted for fucking years in convos on why D&D sucks and Wizards shitting on non-Wizards is a problem, numbnuts. You always have some retards who don't see the power imbalance problem unless it's pointed out in blatant terms.

Assplained indeed. You can point all you like, just makes you a retard when you're pointing to your own suckitude.

"Hurr Durr, I can't play melee toons, casters rule."

Not fooling anybody.
Dumbass, if you're going to put words in my mouth and then waste your time attacking them, there are better ways for you to play with yourself. I pointed out spellcasters shit on non-casters with a vengeance (which is true) and the only thing your deficient fanboy mind can do is get all buttflustered and defensive about martials totally being good and start projecting that this must be a complaint that martials are too hard to play somehow. You're just being a retard swinging at air. What I'm pointing out is that they operate overwhelmingly as auto-attack dummies, have no fucking niche, and are easily replaced by fucking class features on better classes. I also pointed out that spellcasters tend to make better martials than the fucking martial classes.
 
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