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A eulogy for Alignment in CRPGs

HeatEXTEND

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It's never going to stop being funny to me how retarded, autistic, wooden and unimaginative these purported "fans of RPGs" are

Apparently GURPS is decline because it doesn't give the slightest shit about your maladjusted-mental-midget "alignment"-based pseudophilosophy

Your accusation is baseless and even bothering to defend one's self against it gives it more credit than it deserves

You are a monkey flinging shit and you will be treated like a monkey flinging shit

I'm starting to see why you hate alignment systems lol. "Yeah well that's because of what when he didn't so I had to because she never did what I when YOU KNOW WHAT FUCK YOU YOU DON'T KNOW ME MAN". Classic.

I can see now why you find modern day Codex so attractive.
You posted more retarded notions in the past? "Conflict with defined right/wrong is inherently boring". That's the type of shit people used to posit here? Seems unlikely.

"How could you translate the alignment system to make it work - mechanically - in a computer game?"
Biggest problem there imo is the work involved. Even a non-shifting system requires a decent amount of reactivity for it to be meaningful, let alone a shifting one. Using a points and gates system should do fine, but who is going to do all that extra writing, who will be keeping all the states and triggers straight?
Some things that should be considered for a shifting system imo:
-Accumulation of actions/choices that get solidified at certain points in the game <- That cuts out a lot of work right there, leaving room for what is there to be good.
-Solidify dramatic choices throughout <- No doing horrible thing A that the game forgets about after doing heroic thing B, sadly much work
-Lock major choices to current and adjacent alignment <- It's a role-playing-game after all, also helps with states and trigger work
-Looking at this thread, I'm-a-very-complicated-individual™ mode, switches off the entire system and just presents every choice every time, NPC dialog would be replaced with generic "thank you" and "fuck you" replies after every player choice.

Imo the keyword to a great alignment system for computer games is "workload" :negative:
 
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Sophomoric sophists that writhe over alignment really fail to grasp the obvious.
  1. Obvious Point #1 - "A place for everything and everything in it's place."
    • Good: Prefers altruistic methods and ends. Avoids or even prevents harmful ends.
    • Evil: Employs harmful means or pursues harmful ends.
    • Lawful: Prefers order. This may be someone who lives by an oath, abides authority, or is extremely rational.
    • Chaotic: Prefers latitude to make discretionary decisions over a framework.
    • Neutral: Anything where there is ambiguity, regardless of which axis. This also applies to characterizing a single act, specific scenario, or a pattern of behavior.
  2. Obvious Point #2 - "It's not relative."
    • The system is not relative. Orc proto-societies fighting off a Paladin war-party at their cave do not become noble. Drow warriors on the ramparts of their city against a Duergar army are not saints and martyrs. These creatures are by nature Evil, as their conduct and nature predisposes them to acts of malice, greed, and harm both to their kin and otherwise. It's not relative. Evil is defined.
  3. Obvious Point #3 - "Alignments are not glorified psychological evaluations."
    • Magic exists. It's a motive force of reality. It has tangible interactions and repercussions. Some of these regard the inherent and fundamental nature of a creature or plane of existence. Deal with it.
  4. Obvious Point #4 - "It's a game about medieval-fantasy adventuring."
    • It's a game with a basic premise. Subversion exists, but they are not the genre. They are made possible because of the genre.
    • The mechanic adds flavor which is distinctive and fun.
    • You are not insightful or profound.
    • You are not making the game more enjoyable.
    • You are the only person impressed by your sophomoric sophistry.
    • Re-read points 1 through 3 so that you may understand point #4.
 

DraQ

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No, I said the DM, not "both the player and the DM". Just like number, it is up to the DM to flesh it up and describe it. Of course you're a shit DM if the description of a character is " in front of you stand a chaotic good elf ranger", and same goes for the player.
So you were wrong. Big deal. You can't bar player access to the alignment information if they have access to alignment targetting magic. That's the whole point - if the alignment is knowable, it will be known.

We can talk about HUD on another topic, it's not like "user-friendly" aids being decline is an hot take.
Except it's the same shit - predigested metadata clobbering gameplay and good game design.
Seems like a misunderstanding
Indeed it is - you are no longer capable of understanding how merely having alignments precludes many interesting situations in RPGs. And I can't help that, apparently.

-Let's take another example. We have a neutral good fighter, who unveiled an evil political plot, after the sacrifice of some of his friend. He finally caught the bad guy, who get arrested but laugh at his face, because he is the son of a high ranking noble, and will be out of jail in three day. Out of rage and spit, the fighter kill him and go to jail instead.
Did he commit an evil act ? Yes
Actually, not necessarily so. He spat in the face of local law/social order, so he almost certainly committed a deeply chaotic one (almost, because what if the fighter comes from culture whose laws and customs dictate that he must avenge his murdered friend? Then this could even be lawful, merely choosing one of two opposing laws to abide), but evil?
What if the fighter could reasonably expect the guy to strike again after he is release? What if the plot will bring unprecedented death and ruin if it comes to a completion and this is the most sensible and most likely to succeed way the fighter could prevent that?

Or do you either conflate lawful and good or posit that any non-evil character must be a pacifist or at least abide by Batman's modus operandi, continuously getting the same villain locked up, knowing perfectly well he will escape and cause numerous innocent deaths?

If a killing is necessarily an evil act, you can't really have paladins, can you?
If any non-lawful act is evil, then so are all the numerous examples of heroes fighting oppressive regime.

Would a paladin fall after doing such thing ? Yes, instantly.
Speaking of which, if I ever had to make a DnD game with traditional classes and alignment system, I would have definitely put in a situation occurring late in game that would make paladin PC either fall or die/suffer permanent setbacks/or act technically in accord with alignment but making the player hate themselves for the rest of the game (and not because of some asinine letter-of-the-law "lol paladins are assholes" caricature). Whether or not the situation or situations would occur in your game would be randomly predetermined at the beginning of the game with around 50% probability.

-Last thing, and that what was my example with Aribeth was all about
No, I don't give a fuck, sorry.

I give up, you have you own headcannon
It's called skullgun.
about alignment being easy to know which is explicitly refuted by Gigax and the rulebook, and that no DM in his right mind would allow. Suit yourself, but don't complain.
Which part of "alignment targetting effects" is so hard to grasp for you?

Why do we know the alignment of our companions in BG ? It's in order to help flesh them out, most of them have very few line, so it's given away because none of them try to hide. I did'nt say that is a good thing.
Of curse it's not a good thing. It's retarded and horrible.

I serves to gate reaction, punishment and reward behind committing to an ideology.
You can do that without embossing said ideology across all reality.

In forgotten realm and Golarion settings, being a force of law, god, evil or chaos as a tangible effect
And it is inescapably shit.

Yes, describing an ideology on only two axis is pretty bareboned, but it is also supposedly quite easy to understand. Sure, you can want to expand it so that we can place you own unique ideology on a sixty case grid, but common sense will prevent any sane person from doing so.
Those two axis are somewhat functional for most of D&D settings, but nothing prevent you from having your own.
How about - let me blow your mind here - NOT trying to map all possible ideologies on ANY grid? Just don't. It's pointless and unenforceable in a cRPG, it's useless to a live GM (at least any that should be GMing), it's shitty for the players. Just don't. Let it go.

Like, committing to mother Russia give you the Vatnik tag, and you can let found "The red hammer of destruction +"5, who only deemed people with the Vatnik tag worthy to wield it.
Meh. Only works when dual wielding anyway.

Just because an act is labeled evil does not make it wrong.
And for that I thank you. This is what I needed. A concise, yet conclusive proof that alignment systems cause brain tumours.
 

DraQ

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Harthwain
The problem is twofold.
First, as far as alignment systems go, traditional DnD one is about the shittiest one can imagine, apart from maybe 4e one.
Second, there is no actual reason to ever have *an* alignment system, and that's just as true for cRPG as for tabletop.

Just because an act is labeled evil does not make it wrong.
I'd say "evil" as a descriptor gives a wrong idea about one's motivation, but it'd also be hard to come with a different word for describing the overall disposition. To clarify: "Evil" doesn't mean "a spawn of hell". More like "a person who acts in his own self-interest in mind, and who doesn't care about hurting others while doing so".
There is a better descriptor for that.
Selfish.
Selfish VS selfless makes a much better and unambiguously defined axis than good VS evil.

For starters, it doesn't create needless confusion between unscrupulously selfish fuck kind of evil and demented suicidal cult kind of evil.
It doesn't create headscratchers regarding WTF is TN supposed to represent, nor how the fuck do non-social animals fit into the diagram if a person with the same sort of outlook would generally be labelled as NE or CE.
And it doesn't tangle value judgement and moral judgement into a single unhappy mess.

Next, you could probably collapse the entire chaotic end of the whole diagram into a point ending up with a triangle stretched between lawful altruistic, lawful egotistic and chaotic. Chaotic admits no external rules, including moral ones, to live by - a chaotic creature is its own sovereign nation and because of that selflessness makes no sense to a being of pure chaos, even though it doesn't really need to be malevolent. It just doesn't care about any kind of social factors.
Lawful altruistic wants to leverage society to create utopia and maximize happiness of everyone.
Lawful egotistic wants to build well organized hierarchy benefiting THEM.
In between you have all sorts of variants, for example going from lawful altruistic towards chaos you admit increasing amounts of freedom, going towards lawful egotistic you admit increasing amounts of suffering into your system.
And so on.

You see, you can make alignment systems by dozens and most will be better than DnD one, even ones derived from it.
It's not rocket surgery.

But the real elephant in the room is - why the fuck would you want to?
Just because it's working as designed doesn't mean it's a good design (for a video game).

Reputation system in BG is too simplistic to work well together with alignment, because it assumes that high reputation equals you being good, while low reputation means you are evil. As you said, it fails at nuances. Like; Edwin should be OK basking in the glory because he's prideful and it could help his own reputation (as a member of the praised company) or Korgan be fine with whatever you're doing as long as the money is flowing his way.
Precisely.

Systems failing mechanically is generally the problem of video games, but simply copying how tabletop DnD works is not going to cut it, considering the different level of interaction in cRPGs. That's why instead of talking about tabletop alignment system (which for some reason everybody is doing in this thread) the much better discussion would be: "How could you translate the alignment system to make it work - mechanically - in a computer game?".
Alignment system buys you nothing in a vidya game. You probably want some programmatic way of simulating NPCs outlook for AI reasons, but that's something you never expose to the players directly. It's not part of your RPG system any more than the shaders you wrote are, and you don't want to hamfistedly imprint this kind of kludge on your entire worldbuilding.

And you don't need that in a tabletop either, because humans are naturally good at reasoning about people's motives and so on - to the point where your regular stone-age bare-assed tribes tend to first try to understand the world by populating the fuck out of it with spirits and shit and then explaining everything with their acts and motivations behind them.

You presumably have a pair of perfectly serviceable hands. And you do stuff with them. All sorts of stuff. They are pretty good at most of that too, I imagine.
But no, let's give you a pair of pliers. And now force you to do everything you'd do with your hands with those pliers. So, you want to type a response to this post? You use pliers. Play some FPS? Aim by holding your mouse with those pliers. Fix yourself a sandwich? Pliers. Drive a car? Pliers. Take a shit? You can use toilet paper, but you have to manipulate it solely with pliers. Fap? Fucking pliers.

Alignment system is those pliers.

The only part where this analogy breaks down is that there are tasks for which pliers are actually useful.
 

DraQ

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Obvious Point #2 - "It's not relative."
  • The system is not relative. Orc proto-societies fighting off a Paladin war-party at their cave do not become noble.
That's right until you run into a GM who is really enamored with the noble savage cliche.
:mca:
Obvious Point #3 - "Alignments are not glorified psychological evaluations."
  • Magic exists. It's a motive force of reality. It has tangible interactions and repercussions. Some of these regard the inherent and fundamental nature of a creature or plane of existence. Deal with it.
:gd:
Pictured: exact kind of magic in question and its effects on characters and their environment.
Obvious Point #4 - "It's a game about medieval-fantasy adventuring."
Players who aren't lowbrow dew-guzzlers and manchildren need not apply.

I become increasingly convinced that Todd "Fantasy for us..." Howard, while not exactly the savior we and the genre needed is the one we deserve.
Dreams regarding engrossing worlds, deep intrigues, reactivity, mechanics and cool characters were never to be.
Running around shouting at stuff, modded dick(s) swinging in the breeze is the only incline realistically possible for this dismal genre so we should stop worrying and learn to love it.
:despair:
As it's the only one we won't run into the ground by fighting every bit of (actual) incline going our way.
 
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DraQ I like how you skipped over "Obvious Point #1". It's pretty essential. Everything has an objective definition. Even "noble savages" are provided for. That's not a problem with the alignment system, it's the DM house ruling an official statistic of a monster race. Blaming the alignment axis on that is misplaced. Garbage in, garbage out.

The alignment system is intentionally broad. It can apply to really any scenario. I reiterate, if someone is splitting hairs or struggling with ambiguity, then it needs to be classified as some form of neutral. Don't ignore that. To pretend like this alignment axis limits the depths of intrigue or scope of adventures and stories is claim that does not withstand scrutiny.
 
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My points were clear and concise. If you're not a sophist, then you should not take offense. Ultimately, you rebutted nothing.
  1. Alignments have objective but broad definitions.
  2. Alignments are not relative.
  3. Alignments have mechanical significance to the rule set and the (traditional) settings.
  4. People should stop trying to square the circle. They're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, most often because they ignore neutral alignments. To understand why there is no problem, see points 1-3.
 

Harthwain

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Biggest problem there imo is the work involved. Even a non-shifting system requires a decent amount of reactivity for it to be meaningful, let alone a shifting one. Using a points and gates system should do fine, but who is going to do all that extra writing, who will be keeping all the states and triggers straight?
I think "If I were to create a simulationist mechanically-driven cRPG, then how could I tell the game the disposition of NPCs towards my character or his actions without hand-crafting everything?" and I am looking at Crusader Kings as the inspiration.

It's easier to tell the game "Greedy characters in your party demand more gold than usual and ask for a rise more often, and are much more likely to leave you if you fail at that". It's not the alignment system per se, but it does give characters reasons for performing an action. And the whole purpose of the alignment system is, essentially, "X does Y, because Z", so at this point the key lies in creating proper triggers which give feedback to the other in-game systems.

Second, there is no actual reason to ever have *an* alignment system, and that's just as true for cRPG as for tabletop.
There is a mechanical reason for the alignment system: some spells and items work only with (or on, or against) characters who have certain alignment.
 

Sarathiour

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It's easier to tell the game "Greedy characters in your party demand more gold than usual and ask for a rise more often, and are much more likely to leave you if you fail at that". It's not the alignment system per se, but it does give characters reasons for performing an action. And the whole purpose of the alignment system is, essentially, "X does Y, because Z", so at this point the key lies in creating proper triggers which give feedback to the other in-game systems.

It's also easier said than done. It works in crusader king because the game is a lot about management . I vaguely remember gaining some kind of tag in POE depending of my action, but don't remember them having consequences. DAO also tried something with some kind of influence bar, where you gain or lose influence with character depending on your choice, but it did not work really well.
I'm dubious, but would like to see a game where such thing could been implemented successfully.
 

Harthwain

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It's also easier said than done.
Of course. In order for this to work properly need to flesh out a lot of interlinked systems and make sure they all act in a way you want them to. But I think the ultimate end result would offer richer gameplay than a heavy narrative-driven games, which are severly restricted by what developers thought the player could do (because it has to be implemented by hand). So the real work here is in implementing the framework and the game "runs itself", making a player one of its many agents (with some notable exceptions).

Starsector blog (http://fractalsoftworks.com/blog/) offers some very interesting thoughts on making "open-world single-player space-combat, roleplaying, exploration, and economic game". I recommend both the read and the game itself (it's not my game, by the way).
 

DraQ

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I think "If I were to create a simulationist mechanically-driven cRPG, then how could I tell the game the disposition of NPCs towards my character or his actions without hand-crafting everything?" and I am looking at Crusader Kings as the inspiration.

It's easier to tell the game "Greedy characters in your party demand more gold than usual and ask for a rise more often, and are much more likely to leave you if you fail at that". It's not the alignment system per se, but it does give characters reasons for performing an action. And the whole purpose of the alignment system is, essentially, "X does Y, because Z", so at this point the key lies in creating proper triggers which give feedback to the other in-game systems.
You can also track state and trigger on that. Might often be easier than trying to catch specific in-game events in all possible variants.

There is a mechanical reason for the alignment system: some spells and items work only with (or on, or against) characters who have certain alignment.
That's a poor excuse. Alignment targetting mechanics comes in two flavours:
  • easily replaced
  • better off dead
The latter category mostly consists of pretty much anything giving access to alignment as metadata, like detect evil. Shit that trivializes stuff in game.
The former includes restrictions where they are meaningful component of character, faction or spell/item concept - those can be replaced by specific ethos (which is much easier to track mechanically due to being spelled out) - and things like protection from evil, which can be easily patched up by more specific targetted spells like protection from lower planes (analogous to protection from undead and its ilk).

The only way you can convince me otherwise is by showing me specific example of use of alignment that fits into neither of those categories that outweighs the vast body of those that do (especially in the latter) - so "PST deconstructs alignments rather nicely", though appreciated doesn't quite cut it.
Yeah, I'm not above aborting occasional Mozart.

It's also easier said than done.
Hogwash. Even Bethesda could do that kind of thing for almost two decades.

It's trivial to give a greedy follower a condition check for whether or not monetary value of their stuff is increasing. It would be even useful in general case to prevent retarded exploits like stripping undesirable RPCs of all their equipment and kicking them right back out of the party.

You could add distinction between "here's your cut" and "hold onto this for me" parts of the inventory for this purpose.

The important part is to not try to force your characters into some a priori broad-strokes framework, but make a hidden one that handles all your cases and apply it to NPCs/RPCs only - PCs have their own controlling intelligence.
and obviously that's only needed for cRPGs - in tabletop NPCs have their own controlling intelligence as well, there is no sense in effectively* backporting the worst weaknesses of cRPGs, or rather even worse version of this weakness into tabletop.

*) Yeah, I realize that alignment systems predate cRPGs, so what? In a way alignment is weaker than systems cRPGs have to put up with out of necessity being too vague to be useful while having even worse impact on everything. That's pretty much the whole point of this entire exchange - alignment system is forcing everyone to mount and use square wheels even if they don't actually own a bicycle.
 

thesecret1

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PLAYER 1: "Okay, so if I go and murder every single one of those orc babies, I am getting lawful good points, because orcs are evil."
PLAYER 2: "Dude, you are literally murdering babies. That's obviously evil."
*Session turns into an hour long shouting match about politics and morality*

Fuck alignment systems, tbh. Reputation systems are far better.
PLAYER 1: "I go and murder the orc babies, the king hates orcs and will be happy for it."
PLAYER 2: "Yeah. The half-orc smuggler we buy shit from may be kinda pissy though."
 

DraQ

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PLAYER 1: "Okay, so if I go and murder every single one of those orc babies, I am getting lawful good points, because orcs are evil."
PLAYER 2: "Dude, you are literally murdering babies. That's obviously evil."
*Session turns into an hour long shouting match about politics and morality*

Fuck alignment systems, tbh. Reputation systems are far better.
PLAYER 1: "I go and murder the orc babies, the king hates orcs and will be happy for it."
PLAYER 2: "Yeah. The half-orc smuggler we buy shit from may be kinda pissy though."
Even if it still derails into an hour long shouting match about morality at least 3/4 of that time won't be spent trying to get on the same page with regards to the definitions of good and evil.
 

mondblut

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There is a better descriptor for that.
Selfish.
Selfish VS selfless makes a much better and unambiguously defined axis than good VS evil.

Because protective wards against selflessness and swords that do double damage against the selfish are the staple of every myth and legend :roll:
 

DraQ

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Because protective wards against selflessness and swords that do double damage against the selfish are the staple of every myth and legend I HAVE NO BRAIN AND I MUST POST HURRR
The former includes restrictions where they are meaningful component of character, faction or spell/item concept - those can be replaced by specific ethos (which is much easier to track mechanically due to being spelled out) - and things like protection from evil, which can be easily patched up by more specific targetted spells like protection from lower planes (analogous to protection from undead and its ilk).
Waiter, one "Illiterate" tag for our esteemed murderhobo.
 

Rinslin Merwind

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Because protective wards against selflessness and swords that do double damage against the selfish are the staple of every myth and legend :roll:
Neither weapons and wards against evil/good/law/chaos. I don't recall any item in any ancient legend that will refuse to abide to a will of it's owner, just because he does not follow narrow moral view of some guy from other continent. In Christian literature, items can't even grant "magical powers" by itself (only God does grant ability to do a extraordinary things in exchange for exceptional devotion), this is heresy.
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
What about crucifix against chaotic evil vampires? :)
 

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