Which CRPGs from the 80s and early to mid 90s hold up best today?

[Gregz]

Which CRPGs from before the Infinity Engine era hold up best today? Graphics are not a turn-down, basically I'm wondering which games have a good Suffering to Fun ratio, and good story with at least playable controls.

• The Bard's Tale
  
• Wasteland
• Might and Magic II
• Dungeon Master
• Ultima V
• Angband
• Burntime

 

[octavius]

For the benefit of new readers:

I played many of the CRPGs released from 1985 to 1995 - and replayed many of them -, and generally they do stand the test of time IMO.

CRPGs I enjoyed back then, and enjoyed when I replayed them:
The Bard's Tale
Dungeon Master
Gold Box games
Might and Magic 2
Chaos Strikes Back
Wizardry: Bane of the Cosmic Forge
Ultima Underworld

CRPGs I enjoyed back then, not quite as fun when I replayed them:
Ultima IV
Phantasie III
BattleTech: tCHI
Eye of the Beholder
The Bard's Tale II: The Destiny Knight

CRPGs I enjoyed more when replaying:
Dragon Wars
Black Crypt
Ultima Underworld 2

CRPGs I enjoyed when I played them for the first time the past five years:
Wizardry 1-5, 7
Phantasie
Might and Magic I
Ultima V
Demon's Winter
The Magic Candle
Knights of Legend
The Dark Heart of Uukrul
Disciples of Steel
Might&Magic 3-5
Darklands
The Legacy: Realm of Terror
Betrayal at Krondor
Lands of Lore: The Throne of Chaos
Dark Sun: Shattered Lands
Nahlakh
The Aethra Chronicles
X-COM (remake)
Jagged Alliance
Anvil of Dawn

CRPGs that needed an unoffical patch or a remake to be enjoyable:
The Bard's Tale III: The Thief of Fate
Ultima VI

Conclusion: old crud is still crud, but the classics have in general stood the test of time.

 

[mondblut]

All real time blobbers (from Dungeon Master , through EoB 1-3, Lands of Lore, to Stonekeep and Anvil of Dawn) are 100% playable - Legend of Grimrock games have mostly identical gameplay and are quite modern.

But they sucked back then and they suck now.

 

[smaug]

Best GB game that holds up is Champions of Krynn, highly recommended over POR and earlier GB's.

 

[Jarpie]

I would say Dungeon Master is the 1980s RPG that aged the best, not only in terms of gameplay but also controls and even performance. Wizardry I is also really solid to this day, but the console ports play way better than the original releases.

I replayed Dungeon Master in the last spring, and the UI is still very fucking elegant, and the graphics are still very good, thanks to great art-design. Only thing I'd say is lacking probably for modern times is that it has just one set of dungeon graphics.

 

[luj1]

Which CRPGs from before the Infinity Engine era hold up best today? Graphics are not a turn-down, basically I'm wondering which games have a good Suffering to Fun ratio, and good story with at least playable controls.

Dark Sun, Wizardry 6, Wasteland

 

[anvi]

Depends what you mean by hold up. I think most RPGs are not even worth playing, and the older ones especially are just too old and too basic. I loved Gold Box games but I think they are obsolete now unless it is your first RPG and wanted to learn with something simple. Late 90s was a different story, some really great games that are still worth playing.

 

[Bester]

I think a more interesting question is "which of these games can a modern gamer, that never played them, simply sit down in front of and play".

And the answer is - they're fucking difficult to play, because the control scheme will be extremely unintuitive and infinitely removed from modern controls and modern abstractions, and a lot of knowledge required to play will be hidden in manuals.

So the answer is none of them. But Betrayal at Krondor is passable and a modern player can get into it with an effort, but it's impossible to understand how to play Darklands, and Dark Sun is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

I'll repeat Dungeon Master. I haven't played many of its clones, but DM itself is fairly easy to understand. Just don't make the same mistake I did and get the FM Towns version thinking it'll be just like the DOS one but with CD-quality music, it may be in English but you can't use the arrow keys to move around.
Also suggesting:
Elvira (more of an adventure, but eh)
Exile (1995)
Jagged Alliance: Deadly Games (the original has too many features that make it annoying to play)
Might & Magic 3-5
Legacy: Realm of Terror (very modern, but very difficult)
Starflight 1&2

 

[Terenty]

Ultima Underworlds are very much playable and enjoyable. Betrayal at Krondor too if you've got lot of time on your hands.

Everything else will make your eyes and ears bleed if we are being honest here

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Which CRPGs from before the Infinity Engine era hold up best today? Graphics are not a turn-down, basically I'm wondering which games have a good Suffering to Fun ratio, and good story with at least playable controls.

The games prior to Biowarean decline that hold up the best are generally those that were the best quality at the time, although with some acknowledgement that Dungeon Master's innovative user interface was eventually widely copied and resulted in substantial general improvement over the often-clunky UIs of earlier games, and also that the graphics of some early CRPGs can be difficult to view for the lengthy duration required for a playthrough (but many of these have ports with better graphics).

Dungeon Master and its sequel Chaos Strikes Back are easily playable on Windows via Return to Chaos. More broadly, you can try Rogue, Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord, Telengard, Ultima III: Exodus, Tales of the Unknown, Volume 1: The Bard's Tale, Wizard's Crown, The Faery Tale Adventure, Nethack, not only Dungeon Master / Chaos Strikes Back but a multitude of real-time blobbers that imitated it (Captive, Eye of the Beholder, Black Crypt, et cetera), Pool of Radiance (also Champions of Krynn and the other Gold Box games), Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge, Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss, Might & Magic: World of Xeen, The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall, Fallout, and probably a few dozen other worthwhile CRPGs.

There are also some notable examples of non-RPGs with substantial RPG elements, such as Sword of Aragon, Quest for Glory, the first two Heroes of Might & Magic, X-Com, Jagged Alliance, and so on.

 

[sys0nar]

Is the remake or original Realms of Arkania the definitive way to play?

 

[octavius]

I think a more interesting question is "which of these games can a modern gamer, that never played them, simply sit down in front of and play".

I think the Phantasie games could make good cell phone games, being relatively simplistic and having auto-maps.

Dungeon Master should still be eminently playable, except maybe too hard for a modern gamer.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Infinity Engine games are garbage, so you probably won't enjoy actual good games. Still, here are some of my favorites.

Ultima IV was the game that introduced me to CRPGs back when I was a consoletard a decade ago. It was the Master System port though, which is not ideal for seasoned players, but perfect for beginners. It has outstanding exploration, a great plot, and very innovative simulationist design philosophies, but it also has shitty combat, little to no challenge after the initial struggle, and poor customization options. Still one of the best games ever, but avoid it if you're a combatfag.

Ultima V has much better mechanics, balance, combat, and quality of life features, and it's a fun and challenging game till the very end, but it also axed the virtue system from the previous game. The plot is good for 1988 standards and NPCs are better written, but this is not necessarily a good thing in this game, as it makes talking with NPCs more frustrating, as it's easy to miss some clues. Still, this one feels as a huge improvement.

Sword of the Samurai is an RPG/strategy/arcade hybrid, where you compete with other clans to become shogun. It has a nice historical setting, a good reputation system, and many non-scripted "evil" options (you can assassinate rivals, kidnap their relatives, betray allies, and so on) which may or may not affect your karma. A must play game if you already like other historical games like Darklands, Pirates! or Expeditions: Conquistador, or if you like Kurosawa films, as this feels like a homage to Ran.

Darklands is the only RTwP game worth playing (besides Planescape: Torment, which is a good storyfag game despite its mechanics), and a big FUCK YOU to the generic AD&D games from that era (not unlike Fallout 5 years later). Very detailed historical setting and simulationist mechanics, infinite sandbox quests, and very interesting customization options. RTFM, as it's one of the best ever written.

Realms of Arkania is a hardcore simulationfaggotry, with tons of customization options and spells which affect way more than just combat (including negative attributes, social skills, nature skills). Not necessarily a hard game though, and combat is kind of crap. You can safely skip the first game and start playing Star Trail, since both games are very similar, but the sequel is way more polished and has an actual plot.

Ultima Underworld is still one of the most immersive RPGs ever, this game is a huge achievement way beyond being the first of its kind. If you like games like Morrowind, Arx Fatalix or Gothic, give this one a chance.

Telengard is a fun little arcadish dungeon romp, a very simple (and brutal) game without actual objectives. I don't know why I keep coming back to it.

Alter Ego is a modern life simulator, with character creation and customization, skillchecks, and C&C. It's a very well written game, and in my opinion, an early example of RPG without combat, take that Disco Communism.

Dragon Wars mixes well crafted blobber combat and exploration with more modern RPG mechanics an concepts from Wasteland, like different ways to solve quests, skillchecks, a less derivative setting, and a more involving plot. A must play game.

Might and Magic: World of Xeen is casual stuff, but very charming casual stuff. It's a very well made open-world exploration game with engaging and very fast turn-based combat. Earlier M&M games are actaully more engaging and challenging, but this one is the most polished one, and the easier to get into if you're not a fan of classic blobbers.

Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord is still the definitive blobber though, a dungeon survival game with very polished and well-thought-out mechanics, and very exciting gameplay despite its age. It has excellent NES and SNES ports if you can't stand ancient GUIs.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Fallout created the cRPG genre in 1997, so this entire thread is fake news.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Fallout created the cRPG genre in 1997, so this entire thread is fake news.

People who know nothing about games like Darklands, Realms of Arkania or Quest for Glory usually believe this kind of bullshit, but still, a kind of respectable statement since it was made to mock combatfags who only care about grinding and finding phat lewt.

 

[Bester]

Infinity Engine games are garbage, so you probably won't enjoy actual good games. Still, here are some of my favorites.

Ultima IV was the game that introduced me to CRPGs back when I was a consoletard a decade ago. It was the Master System port though, which is not ideal for seasoned players, but perfect for beginners. It has outstanding exploration, a great plot, and very innovative simulationist design philosophies, but it also has shitty combat, little to no challenge after the initial struggle, and poor customization options. Still one of the best games ever, but avoid it if you're a combatfag.

Ultima V has much better mechanics, balance, combat, and quality of life features, and it's a fun and challenging game till the very end, but it also axed the virtue system from the previous game. The plot is good for 1988 standards and NPCs are better written, but this is not necessarily a good thing in this game, as it makes talking with NPCs more frustrating, as it's easy to miss some clues. Still, this one feels as a huge improvement.

Sword of the Samurai is an RPG/strategy/arcade hybrid, where you compete with other clans to become shogun. It has a nice historical setting, a good reputation system, and many non-scripted "evil" options (you can assassinate rivals, kidnap their relatives, betray allies, and so on) which may or may not affect your karma. A must play game if you already like other historical games like Darklands, Pirates! or Expeditions: Conquistador, or if you like Kurosawa films, as this feels like a homage to Ran.

Darklands is the only RTwP game worth playing (besides Planescape: Torment, which is a good storyfag game despite its mechanics), and a big FUCK YOU to the generic AD&D games from that era (not unlike Fallout 5 years later). Very detailed historical setting and simulationist mechanics, infinite sandbox quests, and very interesting customization options. RTFM, as it's one of the best ever written.

Realms of Arkania is a hardcore simulationfaggotry, with tons of customization options and spells which affect way more than just combat (including negative attributes, social skills, nature skills). Not necessarily a hard game though, and combat is kind of crap. You can safely skip the first game and start playing Star Trail, since both games are very similar, but the sequel is way more polished and has an actual plot.

Ultima Underworld is still one of the most immersive RPGs ever, this game is a huge achievement way beyond being the first of its kind. If you like games like Morrowind, Arx Fatalix or Gothic, give this one a chance.

Telengard is a fun little arcadish dungeon romp, a very simple (and brutal) game without actual objectives. I don't know why I keep coming back to it.

Alter Ego is a modern life simulator, with character creation and customization, skillchecks, and C&C. It's a very well written game, and in my opinion, an early example of RPG without combat, take that Disco Communism.

Dragon Wars mixes well crafted blobber combat and exploration with more modern RPG mechanics an concepts from Wasteland, like different ways to solve quests, skillchecks, a less derivative setting, and a more involving plot. A must play game.

Might and Magic: World of Xeen is casual stuff, but very charming casual stuff. It's a very well made open-world exploration game with engaging and very fast turn-based combat. Earlier M&M games are actaully more engaging and challenging, but this one is the most polished one, and the easier to get into if you're not a fan of classic blobbers.

Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord is still the definitive blobber though, a dungeon survival game with very polished and well-thought-out mechanics, and very exciting gameplay despite its age. It has excellent NES and SNES ports if you can't stand ancient GUIs.

How old are you, gramps?

If you explain to me how to play Darklands, I'll give it another go. I don't understand the interface and gameplay to the point where I can't do anything, and I don't know what I'm supposed to do anyway.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

How old are you, gramps?

Many of my favorites were released before I was born, so no, I'm not just some nostalgic oldfart like many others here.

 

[Lukifell]

Wizardry
PoR / Gold Box

Those are the only 80s/90s games I’ve come back to. Different parties will keep things fresh and they’re hard enough to provide a challenge to even veteran gamers.

 

[Cat Dude]

All crpg blobbers

 

[octavius]

Infinity Engine games are garbage, so you probably won't enjoy actual good games.

 

[Gastrick]

Games don't age, you do. Whether a game holds up or not is based on whether you can get over the learning curve and enjoy a genre/style of game. Any game that held up then will hold up today.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Dark Sun is somewhere in the middle.

Dark Sun has very comfortable control scheme. Everything is easily accessible by mouse and when it becomes too slow you learn the shortcuts (it takes 5 minutes to Google them up), and most of them are more or less intuitive. C for Cast, I for Inventory, O for Overworld map, G for Guard, etc. Using items is the most cryptic part, you got to drop them from the inventory, pick them up with the cursor and use in the gameworld; aside from that nothing is really hard to get for a normal person.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Games don't age, you do. Whether a game holds up or not is based on whether you can get over the learning curve and enjoy a genre/style of game. Any game that held up then will hold up today.

I disagree. Many eighties classics are still very enjoyable today because they're so unlike modern games or even late nineties "golden age" RPGs, but when successors offer the same kind of experience but better, many pioneers end up losing their appeal. Look at Ultima VI for example, an innovative open world RPG lauded at the time as a masterpiece, that today is just that old kiddie RPG enjoyed only by nostalgic Gen-xers, since storyfags became more demanding after games like Fallout and PS:T, modern settings make Britannia look like a retarded theme park, mainstream sandboxes like Minecraft are exponentially more interactive, mouse driven GUIs have improved a lot since 1990, and so on. Ultima VI might have been a very unique and exciting game at the time, but today it feels like a mere prototype, and even older entries in the series seem more interesting and fun.

 

[JarlFrank]

Playability or 'quality of life' is relative. A lot of those old CRPGs look hardcore as fuck but are actually extremely comfy to play due to the all keyboard controls. I have had much fun playing old blobbers with my laptop on my belly and a hot coffee and a cold beer next to me. A game like Wizardry 6 is arguably more playable than a game like Baldurs Gate with its heavy mouse use and scrolling and constant space pressing and all that crap.

It's funny, for me mouse usage is a lot more comfortable than having to hit the right key of a dozen different keyboard commands because I like to play in the dark and my fingers tend to slip sometimes.