In DEFENSE of tier magic progression.

[Cryomancer]

Is very common for someone to criticize games like BG2 "it has 300 spells but sleep and a lot of spells are worthless on ToB" or even criticizing D2 for "firebolt and teeth are worthless". This critique is IMO completely wrong. First, why having levels in the first place in a RPG? To measure how advanced your character is. On D&D, a lv 0 guy is a commoner who has no spell casting or weapon proficiency, a lv 1 guy on a specific class, a lv 20 character reached the peak that is reacheable in D&D fictional unvierse. And a epic level char broke the human limitations. That said, an wizard who is near the peak can cast more complex and powerful spells than someone who is lv 1 cuz casted the first spell few hours ago. Levels are measurements, not just "progression" and it applies to spell levels.

That said, spell circles are the concept of "levels" applied to spells. Playing Gothic 2 - returning 2.0 as a necromancer, you have the following spell progression.

• Circle 1 = Arrow of darkness + Summon weak skeleton
• Circle 2 = Exhaustion + summon zombie
• Circle 3 = Spear of Darkness + Summon skeleton warrior
• Circle 4 = Deathball + summon demon which requires demonology and has a separated progression system
• Circle 5 = Army of darkness -> Summons 2 skeleton warriors and a mage armed with spear of darness.
• Circle 6 = "Skull" and Black Mist.

Once the necromancer learned how to make spear of darkness and can throw an bigger and more powerful dark projectile, why he would use the smaller projectile?

On Two Worlds 2 manual, you can see the progression on water magic .

Dark Souls also has a "tier" based spell progression but is masquareted
Soul arrow -> Greater soul arrow -> Greater heavy soul arrow -> soul spear -> crystal soul spear

An lv 150 sorcerer on DS will not be casting soul arrows. What is the problem? An master pyromancer will not be casting fireballs when he can cast great chaos fireballs.
"At the Vinheim Dragon School, the acquisition of this spell marks an apprentice's coronation as a sorcerer." https://darksouls.wiki.fextralife.com/Great+Soul+Arrow

Might & Magic VIII/VIII has a tier based magical progression where :

• Normal spells
• Expert spells
• Master Spells
• Grand Master spells

An "normal" air magician can cast few air spells but not starburst and fly. It requires mastery over air magic. And you need to do promotion quests, on 7, you need to become a Archmage or a Lich to reach gran master level and learn light/dark magic. Warlocks on 3.5e at low level, can cast only "least" invocations, then they learn least lesser, then greater and finally dark invocations. This point, they can permanently transform enemies into toads.

And is not as if low level spells become obsolete on BG2 either. More your character levels up, more low level spells become situational. Mirror image still amazing despite being a low level spell.

I never managed to finish Greedfall. Is a good game, but the fact that you spend the entire time with magic missile and can't even learn how to throw an heavier or faster magic missile, even the damage itself is "tied" to your magic ring, I become bored and never finished. If the game had a progression like magic dart, then magic arrow, then heavy magic arrow, then magic lance or wathever, i would be far more motivated to play the game.,

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Bricker]

+1 so true words

 

[Ol' Willy]

Greedfall is not a good game, though

 

[Cryomancer]

in your mm6/7 example you omitted how basic spells become more and more powerful and that you have mana

You are right. However, not all spells are mana efficient.

Lowly spark becomes best spell from mana efficiency, relevant through whole game.

But static charge doesn't.

And Poison Spray is IMO the best low level magic in that game.

Greedfall is not a good game, though

For you who are used to play 90s Masterpieces yes. But I an saying that Greedfall is good in relation to the declined modern games...

 

[rusty_shackleford]

For you who are used to play 90s Masterpieces yes. But I an saying that Greedfall is good in relation to the declined modern games...

If you liked Greedfall you should play Technomancer. Made by the same dev.
All around good game that gets dragged down a bit by backtracking, pretty underrated though.

 

[JarlFrank]

Depending on what kind of magic system you have (mana based, vancian, or whatever), you can just make early damage spells increase in damage as you level up your skills rather than going the lame and boring way of making higher tier spells just upgraded versions of old ones. It's the easiest way, sure, and allows you to go all "EY LOOK OUR GAME GOT 200+ SPELLS!!!!!" when 150 of these are just exact copies of each other, merely with different damage values.

If a level 1 mage casts firespark and a level 10 mage casts firebolt and a level 100 mage casts epic fireblast of burning, but the only funcional difference between them is the damage value (and fancier effects I guess), they're not three different spells. They're the exact same spell, just scaled to higher levels and rebranded.

Just do something like Wizardry 7 where you can select the spell, then select how powerful you wanna cast it. Higher power levels have a higher mana cost and require a higher skill level to cast reliably. This way, you can get the effect of firebolt+++++ without having to make 5 seperate versions of the spell.

While D&D does have much more powerful high level spells than low level spells, almost none of them are direct "tier-style" upgrades. You don't get Improved Magic Missile and Epic Magic Missile... instead, your plain old level 1 Magic Missile increases in power as your character levels up. Higher tier spells have completely different effects from lower tier spells. Even spells that feel like direct updates tend to have more than just number bloat, such as mid-tier debuff spells only hitting a single target while the top-tier version of that spell has an area effect.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Cryomancer]

For you who are used to play 90s Masterpieces yes. But I an saying that Greedfall is good in relation to the declined modern games...

If you liked Greedfall you should play Technomancer. Made by the same dev.
All around good game that gets dragged down a bit by backtracking, pretty underrated though.

I have heard that fells like a poor man version of dark souls. But the concept of being a technomancer in a highly technological world, is so interesting. So many possibilities and questions that it creates...

If a level 1 mage casts firespark and a level 10 mage casts firebolt and a level 100 mage casts epic fireblast of burning, but the only funcional difference between them is the damage value (and fancier effects I guess), they're not three different spells. They're the exact same spell, just scaled to higher levels and rebranded.

That is not truth.

Looking into the most iconic fire evokation spells on D&D.

• Burning hands - tier 1 - Cone and close quarters AoE
• Fireball - Tier 3 - AoE ranged attack
• Delayed Blast fireball - Tier 6 - More damage than fireball and can be used as a trap.
• Meteor Swarm - An high fantasy version of a mini nuke.

We can repeat the same thing with necromancy. I an pretty sure that skull trap, horrid wilting, etc; are completely different too. The unique spells which makes you critique valid aren't from BG. Missile spells on NWN are probably the unique spells which your critique is valid.

• 1: Isaac's lesser missile storm
• 4: Isaac's lesser missile storm
• 6: Isaac's greater missile storm

Obviously such system is useless if in given game mana regenerates.

Depends how quick the mana regens. On returning is your INT / 20 per 5 seconds. Spear of Darkness costs 30 mana, so with 300 INT, you will at best regen 15 mana per 5 second or can only cast one SoD per 10 seconds. And you can't train INT on returning. To get intellect, you need to do intellectual things like reading books, alchemy, rune making, etc. To become a mage, you need 30 INT and then, pass the initiation. The initiation into the circle of darkness is not easy.

Oh and look at skyrim: empower spell by dual casting, spending even more mana.

Dual casting firebolt and stagging enemies is by far the best combo on skyrim.

 

[JarlFrank]

That is not truth.

Looking into the most iconic fire evokation spells on D&D.

I mentioned D&D spells and how they work in the last paragraph of my post to prove that they aren't merely tier-based.

What you're explaining here right now disproves your point too: D&D's spells are too varied in effects to be considered "tier based" in the way you described in your OP.

Friendly reminder that this is the example you used in your OP:

Same spell effect, just more damage.

 

[Cryomancer]

Same spell effect, just more damage.

Yep. But I still believe that throwing an heavier, larger and faster projectile is more interesting than always throwing the same projectile dealing the same damage... Even if the differences of the two are not that big. Ideally, the 3rh tier ice spell should have a unique propriety, like chance of piercing enemies, slow effect, etc.

 

[V_K]

Honestly only mistake that tes did in my book was to allow spell crafting.

Couldn't disagree more. Spellmaker was the second best thing about TES magic system (the first being a good variety of non-combat utility effects). What TES needed wasn't axing it but making it less granular and more balanced, like e.g. the system in Trazere games.

The first four runes are modifiers, the rest are effects.

Any number of modifiers could be applied to an individual effect, and (virtually) any number of modifiers+effect combinations could be chained in a spell.

 

[JarlFrank]

Yep. But I still believe that throwing an heavier, larger and faster projectile is more interesting than always throwing the same projectile dealing the same damage... Even if the differences of the two are not that big.

So basically what Wizardry 7 and 8 are doing without the need for creating several individual spells that do functionally the same thing but with different numbers.

You can invest more mana into casting a spell to make it more powerful, but it also has a higher failure chance at low skill. That way a high level wizard throws a stronger, faster, larger firebolt than a low level wizard but it's still the same spell. And if you wanna use the low level version even at a high level you can just invest fewer spell points into its casting. It's all nice and systemic and applies to all spells in the game rather than being an artificial "this version of the exact same spells does more damage than the other version lol".

Or M&M's increasing power of spells as you level up.

 

[Cryomancer]

Yep. But I still believe that throwing an heavier, larger and faster projectile is more interesting than always throwing the same projectile dealing the same damage... Even if the differences of the two are not that big.

So basically what Wizardry 7 and 8 are doing without the need for creating several individual spells that do functionally the same thing but with different numbers.

You can invest more mana into casting a spell to make it more powerful, but it also has a higher failure chance at low skill. That way a high level wizard throws a stronger, faster, larger firebolt than a low level wizard but it's still the same spell. And if you wanna use the low level version even at a high level you can just invest fewer spell points into its casting. It's all nice and systemic and applies to all spells in the game rather than being an artificial "this version of the exact same spells does more damage than the other version lol".

Or M&M's increasing power of spells as you level up.

That is the BEST scenario. However, your scenario > upgrades in different spells > always with the same spell > cooldown based rotation management.

 

[Shrimp]

Spell slots, mana pools and other forms of resource management are the biggest arguments for having lower tiers of magic remain present and available.
If you know you only have the power to cast n amount of your most powerful spell but a simple incantation of a weaker spell also will manage to do the job, then why should you waste your power on what likely is an easy victory?
Saving your most powerful magic for the most powerful foes is a natural part of power scaling and adds a sense of progression imo.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[V_K]

Obtaining new spells is trivial(with few exceptions) and they serve only as base to craft your own stuff. Those pre generated spells got not difference in cost to custom made spell.

Both of which are a good thing and make sense in-setting. It's a high fantasy world with a mages guild in every dirty village - of course spells should be common AF. And the fact that your spells follow the same rules as the existing spells adds to verisimilitude. Power growth for magic-users in TES is not about acquiring spells but becoming strong enough to cast them.
Sure, it could have been more exciting if spellmaking required something like soul gems or reagents, like enchanting and alchemy. But even as it is I'd take TES spellmaking over any system with premade-only spells, and especially over Skyrim's castrated magic.

 

[Cryomancer]

well, yeah there are games that make spell craftin fun, like tranny for example.

I HATED tyranny spell system. Cooldowns and low lethality popamole spells everywhere. On Morrowind, you can craft ludicrous powerful spells capable of obliterating an dremora lord in a single cast however, you will probably fail at casting the spell. Unless you are well rested, with mastery over destruction magic and high attributes.

Anyway, I also wanna see more magic in SCI FI settings. Like Technomancer on Starfinder. A tier 1 technomancer can cast Overheat, a Burning Hands clone, a tier 3 can cast Arcing Surge, fly, haste, recharge batteries and fuel tanks, creates a magical robot made of junk and finally a tier 6 technomancer can terraform an planet, teleport between planets, control the gravity and disintegrate enemies.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Cryomancer]

although... creating spell that opens all the chests&doors in radius covering 25% of morrowind island can be considered unique

Alchemy could so so epic things too. Like jumping...



Or how to exploit enemy AI with levitation 0~1 targeted at the enemy.

 

[Cleric of Asmodeus]

I’m playing Kingmaker with the call of the Wild mod and the metamagic feats they add make the low level blaster spells kind of interesting again.

Rime for an entangle with no save for cold spells. Toppling spell to add a trip check to force spells. Intensify spell adds another 5 levels of progression to caster level dependent spells you’ve outgrown. They all only add a level to the spell so they are pretty flexible.

There is also persistent spell and dazing spell which can make lower level spells quite nasty, but they are a bit more expensive; better for rods.

Anyways, it’s fun to have a half dozen tripping magic missiles or rime+staggering snowballs

 

[Joseph Stalin]

Within a well-crafted magic system, every spell would remain useful throughout the playthrough - especially utility spells. Imagine the humble "Light" cantrip, and how within a well-designed RPG where lighting and darkness are vital this simple magic trick would be forever important - as a light source, as a distraction, as bait... sadly, only Larian seems at all interested in environmental gameplay.

 

[Shrimp]

Within a well-crafted magic system, every spell would remain useful throughout the playthrough - especially utility spells. Imagine the humble "Light" cantrip, and how within a well-designed RPG where lighting and darkness are vital this simple magic trick would be forever important - as a light source, as a distraction, as bait... sadly, only Larian seems at all interested in environmental gameplay.

Solasta is experimenting with light and darkness as core mechanics of combat. It still feels a bit experimental at times, but they're definitely at least attempting to do something with it.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I'm failing to see the point of the OP if there is one.

Let's make one then, there is nothing wrong with "tier based" magic system given Might & Magic and late Wizardry systems are included, i particularly like M&M VI and Wiz 8 ones.

But what about most modern retarded tier-based magic systems (or anything tier based for that matter)?
Sure, Diablo paved the way and a lot of MMORPG overused simplistic skill trees and tier systems but games like DOS standardized this kind of crap.

The bottom line is: well thought magic tier systems can be good while mass production studios are going to turn anything to shit anyway, tier or not.

 

[Ol' Willy]

S0rcererV1ct0r

Play full-Psi wizard in Underrail, then share your opinion