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Is grinding ok?

Is grinding ok?


  • Total voters
    110

Nortar

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Pathfinder: Wrath
One more stale joke about grinders and you're getting banned. last warning
What, you don't want to grind through all the jokes?)

Maybe there would have been more serious replies if you defined grinding in your OP.
Yes, everyone knows what it is, just like everyone knows what's an rpg, right?

Is it a process of repeating certain actions/content multiple times in order to improve your stats/gear/skills/whatever before going for more difficult stuff?
If defined so broadly, then the whole rogue-like subgenre (in it's modern reading at least) gameplay is basically a grind.
Dialblo (and clones) is a grind for gear, soul-likes is a grind for skill/memory.
Most MMOs offer grind for grind's sake.

So in my opinion, the only case when grinding is ok, is if it's not required for progress and you enjoy doing it.
 

InD_ImaginE

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Pathfinder: Wrath
The only time I can imagine grinding being okay in non-MMO is when there is a heavy opportunity cost assigned to the very action itself. This of course is non-existent in most western RPGs where there is no meaningful time progression.

A good example is Tales of Wuxia (a Chinese game) which is an SLG - RPG hybrid. Sure you can grind, but you are literally missing events and non-exp building opportunities when you do. Even then it is less grinding and picking option to train in menu which takes seconds.
 

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko

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With grinding one must remember that attempt to fix the "problem" might be even more cancerous than grind itself.
What are options for it?
Character re-speccing at will or AoD-style, which leads to trial-and-error character building?
 
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laclongquan

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Depend on how often you do it in games, though.

I will note that Alpha Centaury's Gaians sweep to and fro the fungus patch to get pearls, capture worms is a form of grinding. Yet this is an acceptable mechanic even if we know a lot of gamers grind it.

Morrowind grind the actions to levelup skills.

NWN2 Mask of Betrayer where you grind the ghosts in the oven~

Fallout 2 caravan system to grind the encounters with your fellow caravan guards. Or hell, then entire random encounters on world map. Fallout 1 Boneyard where you grind the Deathclaws to farm XP.

Planescape Torment to grind the monsters in Undercity. Or the usual abishais on the street.

Silent Storm/Hammer & Sickles also grind action to level up skills.
 

barghwata

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Yeah well hey: no pain, no gain. You either put in the work, level up like a big boy and DOMINATE or just rush ahead like a flimsy little soylet and die like a noob in the first real fight. And what do you do then, huh punk? Savescum like a subhuman, that's what, as if that's how to play like a man.

Scrub, git gud. Retards whine, real men grind.

*tips respectfully*

Yeah yeah........ what actually happens is that men rush ahead without grinding and still manage to beat higher leveled enemies with skill, while solyet pussies get their ass beat so they go back and grind untill their character is overleveled enough to compensate for their lack of skill.
 

mondblut

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Mandatory grinding when you absolutely cannot proceed without first doing the same stupid encounters for days = bad
Optional grinding when you absolutely can proceed without first doing the same stupid encounters for days, but doing the same stupid encounters for days makes the rest of the game so much easier to bruteforce = good

AKA the difference between JRPGs and proper RPGs.
 

Ol' Willy

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Fallout 2 caravan system to grind the encounters with your fellow caravan guards. Or hell, then entire random encounters on world map. Fallout 1 Boneyard where you grind the Deathclaws to farm XP.

Planescape Torment to grind the monsters in Undercity. Or the usual abishais on the street.

Silent Storm/Hammer & Sickles also grind action to level up skills.
All of this is purely optional, and this is why these are good examples.
 

thesheeep

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I don't like grinding myself.
But I think it is a perfectly fine mechanic if it suits your target audience and style of game.
If you take something like Path Of Exile and rip out the grind, well... honestly there wouldn't be that much left, would there?

What really sucks is inserting grind into a game that is otherwise not really suited for it or when it is done in a way that only artificially (and usually unnecessarily) stretches playtime.
One example of that would be the infamous Inquisitor game. Anyone who's been to the mines knows what I'm talking about.
 

Luckmann

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Depends on the game, but in general I would say that grinding is "OK" if it is something you can just do, but it shouldn't be the assumption that you should need to.

If you need to do it, it is likely going to be something I'll realize just as I'm getting tired of whatever is going on and it may absolutely lead to me putting the game down. But on the other hand, if a game is good, I have no qualms with running the same missions over and over anyway, which doesn't even come across as "grinding".

Troubleshooter, I'm looking at you.
 

octavius

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If you have to grind (as in repeating combat encounters for more XP) in a CRPG it's probably too difficult and/or old for you.

Of all the RPGs I've played the only one in which I've actively grinded is the JRPG Wizardry Chronicle.
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Nope. Grinding for levels/gold was the original Skinner box design that tainted the genre forever. It's also strongly related to trash mobs which are also something the genre should get rid off years ago. If someone made an FPS game where you fight the same enemies in the very similar locations over and over and over again it would be considered garbage if it the devs released it after 1993. Yet that's exactly what happens in many Kingmaker dungeons.
 

anvi

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I would have said that I have zero tolerance for grinding, if it wasn't for EQ which proved to me that it can be good if the combat / locations / gameplay loops, are good enough.
 

JarlFrank

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Unless you are an MMO, progression shouldn't be tied to how much the player is willing to do a repetitive task over and over again wasting their time.

No exceptions for MMOs either. Gamers need to grow a spine and demand from devs to stop with their predatory tactics. There is no need for grinding in MMOs, they would have been more enjoyable without it.

Absolutely.

I have tried many MMOs during the 00s but never managed to keep my interest for more than 3 weeks because of all the repetitive grind involved in them.

The genre should be about running through dungeons with friends or doing PvP, not repeating the same content over and over again to finally gain a new level after the 100th time.

As much as I hate NWN, its persistent world multiplayer is so much more fun and a more proper multiplayer RPG experience than any WoW-style MMO could ever be.
 

anvi

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I mean technically every FPS is a grind. You shoot an enemy at minute 1, and then you repeat the same thing a million times until the end credits. RPGs can be kind of the same, even some tactical turn based game can be a grind if each battle is mostly doing the same things. You could say all RPGs are one big grind if you don't like all the running around and reading shitty quest text and then doing your lame little combat routine on 1000s of goblins or whatever.

It is all about the context. One man's tedious ass grind is another man's Underrail.
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
I mean technically every FPS is a grind. You shoot an enemy at minute 1, and then you repeat the same thing a million times until the end credits. RPGs can be kind of the same, even some tactical turn based game can be a grind if each battle is mostly doing the same things. You could say all RPGs are one big grind if you don't like all the running around and reading shitty quest text and then doing your lame little combat routine on 1000s of goblins or whatever.

It is all about the context. One man's tedious ass grind is another man's Underrail.

The difference is that in your typical quality FPS game you meet different sets of monsters in different locations and as you progress through the game the difficulty is steadily increasing, throwing more complicated encounters at you. Dooms don't have leves where you walk into a flat room, shoot 3 imps, walk into another flat room, shoot 3 imps again and repeat that for an hour or so.
Everyone would call it out for being an unimaginative boring mess. Yet that's exactly how grinding and some RPG dungeons feel like.
 

anvi

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I mean technically every FPS is a grind. You shoot an enemy at minute 1, and then you repeat the same thing a million times until the end credits. RPGs can be kind of the same, even some tactical turn based game can be a grind if each battle is mostly doing the same things. You could say all RPGs are one big grind if you don't like all the running around and reading shitty quest text and then doing your lame little combat routine on 1000s of goblins or whatever.

It is all about the context. One man's tedious ass grind is another man's Underrail.

The difference is that in your typical quality FPS game you meet different sets of monsters in different locations and as you progress through the game the difficulty is steadily increasing, throwing more complicated encounters at you. Dooms don't have leves where you walk into a flat room, shoot 3 imps, walk into another flat room, shoot 3 imps again and repeat that for an hour or so.
Everyone would call it out for being an unimaginative boring mess. Yet that's exactly how grinding and some RPG dungeons feel like.
I know man I played Oblivion :/
 

Ol' Willy

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If someone made an FPS game where you fight the same enemies in the very similar locations over and over and over again it would be considered garbage
Add cutscenes to the formula and you will get one of the most popular franchises ever

call-of-duty-4-modern-warfare-cover.jpg
 

octavius

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I mean technically every FPS is a grind. You shoot an enemy at minute 1, and then you repeat the same thing a million times until the end credits. RPGs can be kind of the same, even some tactical turn based game can be a grind if each battle is mostly doing the same things. You could say all RPGs are one big grind if you don't like all the running around and reading shitty quest text and then doing your lame little combat routine on 1000s of goblins or whatever.

It is all about the context. One man's tedious ass grind is another man's Underrail.

You are confusing grinding with poor encounter design.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I mean technically every FPS is a grind. You shoot an enemy at minute 1, and then you repeat the same thing a million times until the end credits. RPGs can be kind of the same, even some tactical turn based game can be a grind if each battle is mostly doing the same things. You could say all RPGs are one big grind if you don't like all the running around and reading shitty quest text and then doing your lame little combat routine on 1000s of goblins or whatever.

It is all about the context. One man's tedious ass grind is another man's Underrail.

The difference is that in your typical quality FPS game you meet different sets of monsters in different locations and as you progress through the game the difficulty is steadily increasing, throwing more complicated encounters at you. Dooms don't have leves where you walk into a flat room, shoot 3 imps, walk into another flat room, shoot 3 imps again and repeat that for an hour or so.
Everyone would call it out for being an unimaginative boring mess. Yet that's exactly how grinding and some RPG dungeons feel like.

Yeah the problem with grind is that it makes you repeat the same encounter over and over, or repeating similar randomly generated encounters over and over, with little to no variation in enemy constellations and environment.

In a good shooter, encounters are made up of
a) the monsters
b) the environment
Proper level design is important. You don't just vary the amount and type of enemies, you also vary their placement and you vary the environmental hazards.

Fighting 5 melee enemies on a bridge leading over lava is far different from fighting 5 melee enemies in a boxy room with no hazards in it. Similarly, engaging a bunch of flying enemies in an open an vertical space is a lot different from engaging them in a narrow corridor where they can't make use of their flying ability.

This is why FPS games only really became good with Doom, and most so-called Doom clones of the 90s (which were more like Wolf 3D clones) failed to be as fun as Doom: Doom introduced height levels and therefore verticality into the genre. Now you can have stuff like jumping puzzles, enemies attacking you from above, flying enemies like cacodemons, etc etc. Wolf3D and its clones had no choice but to give you ever-samey featureless square rooms due to tech limits.

RPGs need to embrace environments as a factor in encounters much more. Some games do it pretty well already: Battle Brothers has height advantage, some types of ground tiles like swamp that cost more AP to traverse, etc. Blackguards did a lot of interesting things with its encounters, giving each one some unique mechanics.

The more possible elements you can add in an encounter, the more interesting it will be. Variation is key. Oldschool dungeon cralwers spiced up the dungeon crawling by adding environmental puzzles, like having to use the jump spell in old tile-based Might and Magic games to bypass trigger tiles that would close a door.

Grind is pretty much anti-variety. Grind is the same encounter in the same environment, over and over.
Dragon Age Origins had an encounter design that felt like a grind to me. Every dungeon had a dozen rooms that all contained the exact same encounter with no environmental variation in it, either: 3 melee + 2 ranged + 1 caster, copypasted over and over again. No creativity in its design, nothing fun, just rote repetition of the same generic encounter. That's what grind is.
 

Reinhardt

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Play ironman - then you suddenly will learn to appreciate opportunity to grind some easier fights. No more "i'm big boy, i will reload hard fight 200 times!"
 

Butter

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Play ironman - then you suddenly will learn to appreciate opportunity to grind some easier fights. No more "i'm big boy, i will reload hard fight 200 times!"
Your epeen points get revoked if it's discovered that you had to grind to complete your ironman run.
 

anvi

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I mean technically every FPS is a grind. You shoot an enemy at minute 1, and then you repeat the same thing a million times until the end credits. RPGs can be kind of the same, even some tactical turn based game can be a grind if each battle is mostly doing the same things. You could say all RPGs are one big grind if you don't like all the running around and reading shitty quest text and then doing your lame little combat routine on 1000s of goblins or whatever.

It is all about the context. One man's tedious ass grind is another man's Underrail.

The difference is that in your typical quality FPS game you meet different sets of monsters in different locations and as you progress through the game the difficulty is steadily increasing, throwing more complicated encounters at you. Dooms don't have leves where you walk into a flat room, shoot 3 imps, walk into another flat room, shoot 3 imps again and repeat that for an hour or so.
Everyone would call it out for being an unimaginative boring mess. Yet that's exactly how grinding and some RPG dungeons feel like.

Yeah the problem with grind is that it makes you repeat the same encounter over and over, or repeating similar randomly generated encounters over and over, with little to no variation in enemy constellations and environment.

In a good shooter, encounters are made up of
a) the monsters
b) the environment
Proper level design is important. You don't just vary the amount and type of enemies, you also vary their placement and you vary the environmental hazards.

Fighting 5 melee enemies on a bridge leading over lava is far different from fighting 5 melee enemies in a boxy room with no hazards in it. Similarly, engaging a bunch of flying enemies in an open an vertical space is a lot different from engaging them in a narrow corridor where they can't make use of their flying ability.

This is why FPS games only really became good with Doom, and most so-called Doom clones of the 90s (which were more like Wolf 3D clones) failed to be as fun as Doom: Doom introduced height levels and therefore verticality into the genre. Now you can have stuff like jumping puzzles, enemies attacking you from above, flying enemies like cacodemons, etc etc. Wolf3D and its clones had no choice but to give you ever-samey featureless square rooms due to tech limits.

RPGs need to embrace environments as a factor in encounters much more. Some games do it pretty well already: Battle Brothers has height advantage, some types of ground tiles like swamp that cost more AP to traverse, etc. Blackguards did a lot of interesting things with its encounters, giving each one some unique mechanics.

The more possible elements you can add in an encounter, the more interesting it will be. Variation is key. Oldschool dungeon cralwers spiced up the dungeon crawling by adding environmental puzzles, like having to use the jump spell in old tile-based Might and Magic games to bypass trigger tiles that would close a door.

Grind is pretty much anti-variety. Grind is the same encounter in the same environment, over and over.
Dragon Age Origins had an encounter design that felt like a grind to me. Every dungeon had a dozen rooms that all contained the exact same encounter with no environmental variation in it, either: 3 melee + 2 ranged + 1 caster, copypasted over and over again. No creativity in its design, nothing fun, just rote repetition of the same generic encounter. That's what grind is.

I agree with all of that, but the problem is that EQ was considered grindy at the time and yet it did all of those things, maybe even better than most FPS's. It had probably one of the biggest bestiaries in any graphical game, and the environments were very varied and interesting and interactive. There were fire immune enemies you fight on a bridge over lava, cold immune enemies in the frozen tundras, magic immune enemies, underwater, forests, deserts, etc. The variety was awesome, and the combat was awesome so it didn't even feel very repetitive. I don't even think people cared about having to fight endlessly, the issue with EQ was the length of time they made it take. At low levels you kill 5 enemies and ding a level. It feels good, you are progressing fast. But at level 30 ish that was more like 80 kills to get a level. And then in higher levels it was more like 300 kills for a level, and then they had trouble adding more levels into the engine so they added 'hell levels' which required like 2-3 times the amount of XP. So to get from level 50 to level 51 was like a week or more of grinding for most people. Even a perfectly fun game starts getting questioned when they drag it out to last years.

But my point is it is complicated, there isn't really grind and no grind, it is all relevant. All the running in Underrail felt grindy and time wasting to me. WoW thought they were clever by replacing EQ's constant battles with constant quests instead. But that is a grind too. And what they probably didn't expect is that a lot of people prefer grinding enemies than grinding quests, because it gives much more freedom and can be more fun, etc. In GTA when I died on a mission and it respawns you miles away and you have to commute through toll booths and shit to get back to where you were, that to me is grind. And 100% repetitive. EQ was also grind, and yet you could play one of a dozen classes that play totally differently, and you had thousands of very different things you could do and places you could go to.
 
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