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Video games are/aren't art, DISCUSS!

Gargaune

Magister
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,136
Interactivity, or rather "agency", isn't an immutable roadblock for artistic expression, you can tell a story in different ways to achieve the same effects. Obviously, it's a lot more difficult and laborious, but it's feasible.

If videogames themselves are art, not just the assets with them (visuals, writing, etc.), then I wonder where player agency fits in. Is it more "artistic" to create the perfect Doom map with great enemy placement and secrets, or is it more artistic to let you stack buckets up to climb over a security gate and get a shotgun earlier in the game? In the traditional sense the more a designer designs, the more an artist they become, and yet typically a game is praised for how much freedom it gives the player.
I don't think it's necessarily a case of one approach always being "better" than the other, videogames can derive artistic value from either and often elements of both, but, in as much as a medium is foremost defined by its unique characteristics, I personally feel that emergent gameplay is a more sophisticated incarnation of gameplay agency and a stronger representation of the craft where applicable. After all, that "freedom" is still designed and it takes careful consideration and balancing, you're not just programming object affordances and letting the player loose among them. As for the traditional multiple-choice paths most commonly used in plot components, they're an instance of agency though probably not the same sort of freedom you meant, as a tangent.

Basically, I can enjoy both Doom and STALKER for what they offer, but I more deeply admire the latter.
 

Zer0wing

Cipher
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
2,607
Yes. They are. I have much worse addictions than toys, believe me.

But while we're on the subject
20201126-044215.jpg

What made you think for half a fucking second that I would be ashamed of such an accusation?
I don't see a real star of any action figure collection.
41vrbwNF8wL._AC_.jpg
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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The game is the instrument, playing it in a way that's fun for the player is the art.

And some instruments require various degrees of mental incapacity in order to be played well.
 
Glory to Ukraine
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Honestly I am amazed that there are people nowadays who would seriously deny that video games are art.


Marcel Duchamp came up with the whole Fountain thing (literally an urinal he bought and turned 90 degrees from intended positioning) in fucking 1917, there were tons of academic articles written about it and in 2004 it was declared “the most influential artwork of the 20th century.”


People literally take pictures of their assholes and put them in galleries nowadays along with all sorts of other retarded shit. Hell you can probably spray some random colours on a piece of toilet paper and get some pretentious faggot to buy it as a piece of art for decent money. There was this guy from Russia who nailed his dick and balls to a piece of wood (last I heard he moved to France and was involved in leaking a sex tape of the guy who ran for mayor of Paris or something like that) and that was widely considered art too, Pussy Riot are best known for the “Punk prayer” in that cathedral, but they did tons of other stuff (IIRC one of the girls from the cathedral “performance” previously went to a supermarket and put a frozen chicken in her vagina) – all of that was widely characterised as art too.

In other words “art” is a completely hollow term and has been so for at least a century by now. Literally anything can be art if somebody declares it to be and given what kind of things have been generally accepted as art at this point there is
a) no reason to see something as somehow prestigious because its art
b) no reason to vehemently deny that something is art when somebody else makes claims to the contrary

Contemporary cinema along with video games or overturned toilets might be on the other side of the continuum from Goethe´s Faust, but claiming they all do not fall into a largely meaningless category of “art” is indefensible in the current year.
 
Unwanted
Dumbfuck
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Oct 29, 2020
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999
Location
Free Market Paradise
(IIRC one of the girls from the cathedral “performance” previously went to a supermarket and put a frozen chicken in her vagina) – all of that was widely characterised as art too.
Very art but has any of the CDP devs stuffed a frozen chicken up their vagina yet? Didn't think so. We don't even know if Cyberpunk 2077 will feature urinals or use textures based on pictures from inside a dev's colon yet.
 

TemplarGR

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
5,815
Location
Cradle of Western Civilization
People need to define and understand what art is in the first place, and then they will understand why video games cannot be art. They do contain forms of art like graphics, music, and stories, but they are not art themselves.

Art is the expression of a person's (or even a culture's) feelings and thoughts into the material realm. For example a painting is art because it illustrates something the painter is admiring or thinking. Sculptures are art for the same reason. Books are art for the same reason. Films and music for the same reason. They put in material form thoughts and sentiments of another person so other people can appreciate them and feel/think the same things. In terms of civilizations, they are landmarks that showcase what the culture was all about so it won't be lost in time, for example the ancient Greek art. They are like dog tree markings, but more sophisticated.

There is a subgroup of games that could be considered art, but those games typically fail at being video games and they are heavily skewed in other art forms, stuff like interactive movies or visual novels, which are heavy on the movie and novel part, and thus there is a serious amount of art in them to the point where the gameplay part rarely matters anyway.

A nice example of a vidya game that could be considered art by some, is "To the moon". That game could be arguably called art, but if you see it as a video game, it is lacking. It is basically a visual novel with a few kindergarten puzzles. The meat and potatoes of it is the story, which is quite good and sentimental. It is as art as any book. But no one plays "To the moon" for the video game part, literally no one.

TL: DR: The extreme vast majority of games are not art. And the only way to have artistic video games is for them to fail at being video games.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2018
Messages
999
Oh look, a butthurt faggot got out of the woodwork because i attacked his addiction, like any heroin addict.... Look pal, video games are TOYS. Get over it.
Yes. They are. I have much worse addictions than toys, believe me.

But while we're on the subject
20201126-044215.jpg

What made you think for half a fucking second that I would be ashamed of such an accusation?

More to the point, what made you think that this assertion makes what I said untrue?

Edit: Heated gamer moments
Your addiction is weak. Try being into Gunpla and Warhammer if you want to know what suffering for an addiction truly is.
 

Butter

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
7,523
Honestly I am amazed that there are people nowadays who would seriously deny that video games are art.


Marcel Duchamp came up with the whole Fountain thing (literally an urinal he bought and turned 90 degrees from intended positioning) in fucking 1917, there were tons of academic articles written about it and in 2004 it was declared “the most influential artwork of the 20th century.”


People literally take pictures of their assholes and put them in galleries nowadays along with all sorts of other retarded shit. Hell you can probably spray some random colours on a piece of toilet paper and get some pretentious faggot to buy it as a piece of art for decent money. There was this guy from Russia who nailed his dick and balls to a piece of wood (last I heard he moved to France and was involved in leaking a sex tape of the guy who ran for mayor of Paris or something like that) and that was widely considered art too, Pussy Riot are best known for the “Punk prayer” in that cathedral, but they did tons of other stuff (IIRC one of the girls from the cathedral “performance” previously went to a supermarket and put a frozen chicken in her vagina) – all of that was widely characterised as art too.

In other words “art” is a completely hollow term and has been so for at least a century by now. Literally anything can be art if somebody declares it to be and given what kind of things have been generally accepted as art at this point there is
a) no reason to see something as somehow prestigious because its art
b) no reason to vehemently deny that something is art when somebody else makes claims to the contrary

Contemporary cinema along with video games or overturned toilets might be on the other side of the continuum from Goethe´s Faust, but claiming they all do not fall into a largely meaningless category of “art” is indefensible in the current year.
It's really great that a bunch of marxists ruined the concept of art for entire generations and now we can't distinguish the real thing from garbage anymore.
 

ADL

Prophet
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
3,680
Location
Nantucket
I feel like a retard for responding to bait about whether or not video games are art but Kingdom Come Deliverance evoked more emotion out of me than any menstrual blood paintings I've seen at exhibits so I'd say they can be.
29906170001_4488488930001_video-still-for-video-4488330481001.jpg
 

Alexios

Augur
Patron
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
444
I feel like a retard for responding to bait about whether or not video games are art but Kingdom Come Deliverance evoked more emotion out of me than any menstrual blood paintings I've seen at exhibits so I'd say they can be.
really setting the bar high
 

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
594
who gives a shit about art I just want to have fun with my vidya
either by good stories or good gameplay that's all I ask since you can't ever have both
artfags get the fuck out
 

typical user

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
957
They are art. People might disagree but then again people also think Earth is flat, vaccines give autism and Jefrey Epstein killed himself.
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,536
I actually stopped even thinking of art as anything other than paintings and small "artsy" handcrafted stuff (like rings and similar). And that is a good thing. Just because the "elites" pronounced something as art (like movies) does not make it true.

And games are not art, and thank God for that. Art, like anything else, can be either good or bad, and bad art is worthless and infinitely inferior to, for example, a good game.

Only narcissistic imbeciles think that by proclaiming something as art it immediately become more valuable than before. It does not.
 

Max Heap

Arcane
Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Messages
617
[....]

Oh, and by the way, Dostoevsky and Kubrick are overrated as hell. [...]

Ironically you are acting like the underground man in 90% of your posts.


Besides: Art - as a contemporary concept - has lost any meaning. It's shit. Literally shit. A can of shit is art.
I can't think of any worse ideal to aspire to than what's called "art".
Video games, as a modern form of media, have all the possibilities to return to the classic principles of beauty.
And they do. Many of them focus on strong emotional reaction through awe inspiring scenery for example.
I'd argue that even something as "casual" as Skyrim has invoked more emotion in more people than any contemporary artwork.

And that's why large portions of the art scene and its cancerous (politicized) spin-offs hate video games so much. It is sheer jealousy of these classic principles. They see it almost as a reactionary act of treason within the field of visual media.
And they can do nothing, absolutely nothing about it. They see games having such an impact, but the technical side is a puzzle box to them. Most can't even break into the field. Doesn't help that many modern "artists" are also hangnail enthusiasts. So the best they can muster up are "alternative games" like walking simulators revolving around trivial nonsense.
 
Last edited:

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,837
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Define "art" first, otherwise the question is moot.
Define "demon" otherwise your username is moot.

Categories are often fuzzy, and very strange. In the modern category of fish, we include salmon, eels, plaice and sharks, but not dolphins. It could easily be argued this is madness, because a dolphin is in many respects closer to sharks than sharks are to eels. And that's an easy categorization, if you want something actually hard try to define dog breeds in a way that capture various mixed breeds.

There's a lot of arguments based on agenda when it comes to vidya being art. Some want to declare it so, because they feel it makes them more prestigious. Others want it not to be so, because they think art is pretentious or hallowed and they don't want vidya to be (or think it is) pretentious or hallowed.

Personally I think it is a bit weird to include movies, paintings, music and sculptures in art, but rule out video games. You can make the argument that vidya is not art but rather an art exhibit, but I feel that is a bit like arguing a pile of paintings is not art.
 

Joggerino

Arcane
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Oct 28, 2020
Messages
4,472
Besides: Art - as a contemporary concept - has lost any meaning. It's shit. Literally shit. A can of shit is art.
I can't think of any worse ideal to aspire to than what's called "art".
Video games, as a modern form of media, have all the possibilities to return to the classic principles of beauty.
And they do. Many of them focus on strong emotional reaction through awe inspiring scenery for example.
I'd argue that even something as "casual" as Skyrim has invoked more emotion in more people than any contemporary artwork.

And that's why large portions of the art scene and its cancerous (politicized) spin-offs hate video games so much. It is sheer jealousy of these classic principles. They see it almost as a reactionary act of treason within the field of visual media.
And they can do nothing, absolutely nothing about it. They see games having such an impact, but the technical side is a puzzle box to them. Most can't even break into the field. Doesn't help that many modern "artists" are also hangnail enthusiasts. So the best they can muster up are "alternative games" like walking simulators revolving around trivial nonsense.

Agree with everything you said. Remember this art piece? Fuck modern art.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,164
Obligatory:

http://www.studiesincomparativereli...ibit_Works_of_Art-by_Ananda_Coomaraswamy.aspx

This sperging about art is a red herring anyway. The real question people are asking is whether video games provide anything that is meaningful or profound. The answer is no, they don't. The argument that they feel good is irrelevant. I get intense pangs of pleasure and nostalgia everytime i hear the theme of a favored game from my childhood, but to confuse that with meaning emanating from the game itself is silly. For that matter i get pangs of pleasure when thinking about my first action figure but so what, are toys art now?
 

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