Ol' Willy
Arcane
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Petition to move Cyberpunk 77 thread to General Gaming
- Thread starter Ol' Willy
- Start date
Falksi
Arcane
100%
good fucking shit happen
Unwanted
It should stay in RPG until release day because our Polish trannies need crystal copium like this to not kill themselves. After all is said and done it should be moved to the proper forum section.
fork
Guest
Nah, the jew has other interests and DU has to recuperate his losses from his election bets. And the rest of the staff are retarded leftists. So there's that.
Joined: May 3, 2020
It would make sense only if we would move all Action RPGs to general gaming; Fallout 3, New Vegas, Deus Ex Human Revolution & Mankind Divided, Witcher 2 & 3, Oblivion, Skyrim, Mass Effect series, Dragon Age series, Gothic series and many more, and then we can ask if we move all these action rpgs it will make the forum more clean or more messy. I think more messy, so i dont think its good idea.
Mods can always make subforum for indie and isometric rpgs.
luj1
You're all shills
An isometric combat simulation with character elements. Born when people began giving stories to figures in miniature wargaming.
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Looks rpg enough for me. If this is considered not an rpg, then neither is Fallout New Vegas, all the shit Bethesda peddles, and every second thread in the GRPG forum.
That said it would be funny to split GRPG into normal rpg forum and Real Proven General RPG. For RPG and RPGRPG (or RPG²).
luj1
You're all shills
Those are character elements, which you can add to any format - shooter (NOLF), strategy (DotA), adventure (Disco). Doesn't make it an RPG which is isometric and turn based.
Do you count RTWP as spicy turn based, or are the Baldurs Gate games not rpgs?
I guess I can ultimately get down with the opinion that action rpgs are not true rpgs, since they feel vastly different to play. Also Ultima and Wizardry were turn based, and they are the genre grandfathers.
But making rpgness dependable on the camera angle is silly. Wizardry is not isometric, it is first person.
overly excitable young man
Guest
There's this obscure rpg that doesnt even have stats.
It let your enemies explode if you said a magic word.
They talk a lot about it in GRPG.
It let your enemies explode if you said a magic word.
They talk a lot about it in GRPG.
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2015
- Messages
- 5,094
Petition to move Ol' Willy to rpgwatch.
Corvinus
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2011
- Messages
- 1,969
That is true - they aren't.
luj1
You're all shills
You are right, let me rephrase. Isometric and turn-based is the purest form.
Wizardry retains everything except perspective, Baldur's Gate retains everything except turn-based, but is still round-based. So they both are RPGs.
Corvinus
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2011
- Messages
- 1,969
I couldn't agree more - if a site that used to be as prestigious as the Codex labels that awful shit as RPGs (and has done for years, despite complaints; Bethesda is listed as a RPG developer), there's no issue with keeping "Cyberpunk" 2077 in the same toilet. A flush is well overdue, though - not only in the RPG section, but also in the NEWS department. *Especially* in the NEWS department.
Ontopoly
Disco Hitler
Player skills --> Not an rpg. I can't zip pity zoo my mouse as quickly as these fucks, and being able to aim looks like it matters more in cyper punk than planning out your character. Character Skill planned out and assigned by me --> Real certified RPG.
Peachcurl
Cipher
I agree that Johnny Depp would have been preferable to Keanu.
good fucking shit happen
Unwanted
This is correct.
These days I'm inclined to think that the distilled essence of the RPG is a deep progression system (where you get into a quasi-mathematico-logical trance - or even an actually mathematico-logical trance, if you have the chops - when you're pondering your build) as an aspect of simulation and roleplaying. But with some of the classic RPGs, there are a lot of fake levers that look interesting but don't really do anything - still, there's that aspiration there, to simulate in-depth and have lots of options to juggle and weigh up in your mind, and the lack of in-game things for those levers to hook into is perhaps just a function of time, money and energy running out for devs.
Restricting to isometric seems a bit parochial, but I'm definitely inclined to favour turn-based as a requisite. But that would exclude RTwP, which doesn't seem right, since many of the classics are RTwP.
One thing's for sure: "action" control and player twitch skill is extremely problematic (and that even includes the amount of it that you need for RTwP), because it limits simulation possibilities relative to turn-based, and seems immiscible with proper progression systems. But then some games have managed to offer some kind of rickety, but fun, blend.
*sigh* back to the drawing board.
Restricting to isometric seems a bit parochial, but I'm definitely inclined to favour turn-based as a requisite. But that would exclude RTwP, which doesn't seem right, since many of the classics are RTwP.
One thing's for sure: "action" control and player twitch skill is extremely problematic (and that even includes the amount of it that you need for RTwP), because it limits simulation possibilities relative to turn-based, and seems immiscible with proper progression systems. But then some games have managed to offer some kind of rickety, but fun, blend.
*sigh* back to the drawing board.
good fucking shit happen
Unwanted
Now that it is out I have a harder time with defining this game because this type of game has become its own genre over time. I think this is what the term lootershooter means.
Genres are reference points of similarity, so I will list some games that are like this.
Fallout 4 - You find locations, suck up items, kill badies and move on to the next place, then you get better items and craft things to do this more effectively. This was an evolution of Bethesda games since Fallout 3, so Fallout 3 is really the grandpappy of CP77. Skyrim was the game that placed this gameplay loop on the map for other developers to start copying. If you blame Todd Howard for DLC which Bethesda more or less invented or popularized with their horse armor then this is another thing that Todd can claim credit for.
Far Cry 2 and onward in that series, same game really - Same thing, you find locations with a couple of enemies, you sneak into the place and use a couple of very shallow systems to mess with them in different ways and to make your job easier, but at the end of the day you can just go in guns blazing and not really care about all that. It's just for people who want to larp tacticool or Deus Ex. CP77 just replaces mercs and lunatics with gangs and shit like that in an urban setting instead of mostly nature.
Assassin's Creed - this series went towards that unified Ubisoft open world formula after some entries and it had a huge impact on The Witcher 3. Previously CDP made first a more traditional RPG with a rhythm minigame instead of proper combat, then they made something like late EA-era Bioware did, popularized with Mass Effect. Some still stick to that old style, for proper RPGs then you have games like Pathfinder, for Bioware style games you have all those Eurojank titles published by the frogs at Focus Home Interactive.
Diablo 2 and World of Warcraft - The loot being in these clearcut tiers with arbitrary level requirements to use it. Same core concepts.
Borderlands - Numbers exploding out of enemies in an FPS so it can larp being an RPG, itemization, the parallels you could draw in terms of pure gameplay are endless.
Dragon Age Inquisition and Mass Effect Andromeda - Fairly different games but CP77 is similar in how it dumps all its sidestories in these text dumps in what would in a game like in a Bethesda Fallout just be hinted at environmentally. I think this is a result of having too many writers hired and you need to have them write something. It's like trying to cram the terminals and texts of a Deus Ex game where you are involved and care about the story and the characters into Borderlands within the framework of Far Cry 2+. The main story can afford these motion captured animations and VA work and all that, but the rest of the writing doesn't get the same polish and is just left in the gameworld as pure text. I don't think it has ever worked and on every game I've seen this sort of thing in it has been a massive waste of development time. Words words words with no investment.
One game that isn't a lootershooter but has a fuckton in common with CP77 is Sabotain. Now that CP77 is out it's now clear that it wouldn't be a stretch to call it Sabotain with extra steps. Back when it was released the open world lootershooter had not yet been perfected and all that time wastey bullshit wasn't in, but the core game is almost exactly the same. It's fucking scary how similar they are even. Same exact things, down to gangmembers standing next to lootable chests you could optionally kill if you wanted.
Is this genre an RPG genre? I don't think so since they are are more or less action games. But what is this new genre of open world games with that Skyrim/Fallout 4 gameplay loop called? Could you just say open world lootershooter and that would be enough? Whatever it is CP77 is the apex of it. It is to lootershooters what Singularity was to its generation of console shooters. A Frankenstein's monster made up of all the most prominent ideas of the generation.
Genres are reference points of similarity, so I will list some games that are like this.
Fallout 4 - You find locations, suck up items, kill badies and move on to the next place, then you get better items and craft things to do this more effectively. This was an evolution of Bethesda games since Fallout 3, so Fallout 3 is really the grandpappy of CP77. Skyrim was the game that placed this gameplay loop on the map for other developers to start copying. If you blame Todd Howard for DLC which Bethesda more or less invented or popularized with their horse armor then this is another thing that Todd can claim credit for.
Far Cry 2 and onward in that series, same game really - Same thing, you find locations with a couple of enemies, you sneak into the place and use a couple of very shallow systems to mess with them in different ways and to make your job easier, but at the end of the day you can just go in guns blazing and not really care about all that. It's just for people who want to larp tacticool or Deus Ex. CP77 just replaces mercs and lunatics with gangs and shit like that in an urban setting instead of mostly nature.
Assassin's Creed - this series went towards that unified Ubisoft open world formula after some entries and it had a huge impact on The Witcher 3. Previously CDP made first a more traditional RPG with a rhythm minigame instead of proper combat, then they made something like late EA-era Bioware did, popularized with Mass Effect. Some still stick to that old style, for proper RPGs then you have games like Pathfinder, for Bioware style games you have all those Eurojank titles published by the frogs at Focus Home Interactive.
Diablo 2 and World of Warcraft - The loot being in these clearcut tiers with arbitrary level requirements to use it. Same core concepts.
Borderlands - Numbers exploding out of enemies in an FPS so it can larp being an RPG, itemization, the parallels you could draw in terms of pure gameplay are endless.
Dragon Age Inquisition and Mass Effect Andromeda - Fairly different games but CP77 is similar in how it dumps all its sidestories in these text dumps in what would in a game like in a Bethesda Fallout just be hinted at environmentally. I think this is a result of having too many writers hired and you need to have them write something. It's like trying to cram the terminals and texts of a Deus Ex game where you are involved and care about the story and the characters into Borderlands within the framework of Far Cry 2+. The main story can afford these motion captured animations and VA work and all that, but the rest of the writing doesn't get the same polish and is just left in the gameworld as pure text. I don't think it has ever worked and on every game I've seen this sort of thing in it has been a massive waste of development time. Words words words with no investment.
One game that isn't a lootershooter but has a fuckton in common with CP77 is Sabotain. Now that CP77 is out it's now clear that it wouldn't be a stretch to call it Sabotain with extra steps. Back when it was released the open world lootershooter had not yet been perfected and all that time wastey bullshit wasn't in, but the core game is almost exactly the same. It's fucking scary how similar they are even. Same exact things, down to gangmembers standing next to lootable chests you could optionally kill if you wanted.
Is this genre an RPG genre? I don't think so since they are are more or less action games. But what is this new genre of open world games with that Skyrim/Fallout 4 gameplay loop called? Could you just say open world lootershooter and that would be enough? Whatever it is CP77 is the apex of it. It is to lootershooters what Singularity was to its generation of console shooters. A Frankenstein's monster made up of all the most prominent ideas of the generation.
good fucking shit happen
Unwanted
Exactly, Fallout 4: Far Cry Edition with a new coat of paint belongs with the games closest to it. Away from the RPG section.
luj1
You're all shills
After playing a bit:
Unlike VTMB this feels closer to a looter shooter than to an rpg gameplay wise. Gatekeeping its rpg status is fine.
I am not exactly sure why, since on a technical level it should have more rpg elements, but it feels like less of an rpg than Witcher3. Maybe just the subconscious setting association.
The attribute system is not a proper attribute system but just some skill level wank larping as attributes.
Unlike VTMB this feels closer to a looter shooter than to an rpg gameplay wise. Gatekeeping its rpg status is fine.
I am not exactly sure why, since on a technical level it should have more rpg elements, but it feels like less of an rpg than Witcher3. Maybe just the subconscious setting association.
The attribute system is not a proper attribute system but just some skill level wank larping as attributes.
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