Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Trashos]

thats because cave wizards can play nothing but cave wizardry and are unwilling to learn.

Not like me, always playing sneak stabby stab

You are the Determinator, I thought you would be ecstatic with psi's 100% chance to hit.

No not really. For the most part it is a lot of uneccessary tedium and it made weak abilities with niche uses only worthless now.

I think we are saying the same thing with different words. Guns had to strategically manage their resources already. Bullets (number and type), grenades, traps etc. Psi users didn't have to do that, and now they do. You call it tedium, I call it strategic resource management.

Psi was already heavy in tactical resource management (ie, psi management during a fight), but not strategic. A Psi user could walk from SGS to Junkyard through the caves as often as he wished, while a guns user would have to think about the bullets wasted on the beetles that block the way. Now the Psi user has to think about the psi wasted.

I do agree that the lesser psi abilities need some looking into now.

 

[CHEMS]

Cave Wizards resources literally grow on the ground.

 

[Tygrende]

Styg, when you're gonna give us MACHINE GUNS?

I can already suggest the names: Fiend, Ravager, Leviathan. Please do not deny our DAKKA needs

You can already reach triple digits of bullets fired per turn with SMGs. ARs are all about bursting, too. Machine guns wouldn't have a niche to fill I'm afraid.

Slightly related, I did a mostly single shot only AR build once. It sucked.

 

[Tigranes]

I've spent last few days running various half-baked builds into Depot A on Dom/Oddity and seeing how it goes. Honestly, I think I find that almost more fun than playng all the way through, at least after over a dozen full plays.

No psi / leather armour Hammerman = didn't go too well, I'm sure it can work with more theorycrafting but just couldn't overcome the lack of tools in an early game low AP no-Psi dude.

Typical hammer wizard = did better, though I've never been sure if Force User isn't a trap feat on psi dippers. But melee on Dom definitely seems fiddlier unless you really work the numbers.

Versatility chem pistol = many ways this could be done, and this one did OK, but despite changes over patches I still can't seem to get the most out of versatility. much of it probably a mindset/playstyle thing when you're no longer sticking to 2 or 3 weapons the entire game. In particular I can't seem to effectively grok doing melee and ranged both - with any ranged boy I just try to never get close.

Pistol crit = pretty standard build, SI & relentless etc, though decided to dip into Cooked Shot for kicks. Switched across pistol, laser and chem + obligatory molotovs and Depot A pretty breezy, easy enough to also down the robots. I might fiddle with plasma/electro guns though I've never found them useful. Not sure if going up to 5STR for Steadfast Aim is worth it but I'm sure someone's crunched numbers for that.

Nothing particularly weird or amazing but finding Dom/Oddity pretty enjoyable early game. Finished Depot A on lv9 for that last build, will see how it does with Burrowers.

 

[CHEMS]

I don't like oddity on Dominating. Feels like i'm lagging behind in most encounters.

 

[Trashos]

electro guns

I mean, it is Electrokinesis for pistol users. What is there not to like? I have never used it as my main weapon, but I often have it in my off hand.

 

[CHEMS]

Goddamn, specced sixth shell is god tier. I just dealt 1000 damage and it wasn't even a crit.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Hard is to easy and dom is to tiresome.

 

[hell bovine]

Perhaps devoted psi players were used to not having to manage their resources strategically, only tactically. Now they have to check whether they have enough inhalants with them, whether they have innervated the ability they want to use in the upcoming fight etc. They also probably had to rework some of their combos. Inertia, as usual with changes of mindset. They will get used to it.

Nope. I've run a psi up to core city and from a tactical point of view the only difference was in how force field works now. While an improvement, it could use some work, because enemies sometimes attacked it while they had a path free, thus wasting their turn. Other than this, inhalants are not scarce since you can buy them eveywhere, so it's simply yet another drug to add to the shopping list while in town. I also didn't bother changing the innervated abilities, since you can just spam the same thing in every fight. (about the only exception was getting pyrokinesis before rathound lair, to blow up the traps)

 

[Ol' Willy]

I think we are saying the same thing with different words. Guns had to strategically manage their resources already. Bullets (number and type), grenades, traps etc. Psi users didn't have to do that, and now they do. You call it tedium, I call it strategic resource management.

It's still not as tedious as having 20 big repair kits on you all the time and picking all possible mechanical loot to recycle it and make more. I played Brr non-crit build on hard and it was outrageous - durability goes away like a fart in the wind and I was forced to repair guns all the time. I started using AKM only because it has no durability.

Now I know the solution: if I ever play full-auto build I play only on Classic and rush level 20 ASAP to get fully specced Disassemble.

With full-Psi, though: inhalators are light, cheap and sold everywhere. Lategame I had like 50 of them on me all the time and it wasn't a problem.

 

[Sykar]

I think we are saying the same thing with different words. Guns had to strategically manage their resources already. Bullets (number and type), grenades, traps etc. Psi users didn't have to do that, and now they do. You call it tedium, I call it strategic resource management.

It's still not as tedious as having 20 big repair kits on you all the time and picking all possible mechanical loot to recycle it and make more. I played Brr non-crit build on hard and it was outrageous - durability goes away like a fart in the wind and I was forced to repair guns all the time. I started using AKM only because it has no durability.

Now I know the solution: if I ever play full-auto build I play only on Classic and rush level 20 ASAP to get fully specced Disassemble.

With full-Psi, though: inhalators are light, cheap and sold everywhere. Lategame I had like 50 of them on me all the time and it wasn't a problem.

You probably never really changed abilities much then and used the same one or two combos over and over. Innervation system is completely idiotic making your PSI pool go zero every damn time you just want to switch just a single ability. Never mind that the extra slot from the PSI head band has to be constantly re-inervated as well because you lose it as soon as you switch head gear and since you have to constantly switch between motion detection and head bands at the very least that slot is almost worthless.
As to your problem, that is specific ONLY to SMGs. No other gun needs this and the real problem is that people are unwilling to use anything but SMG burst so your guys fault entirely. Copious use of grenades alone with Threepointer thrown in the mix noticably reduces the amount of repair kits and ammo. Never mind setting up some traps before hand helps as well.

 

[Trashos]

Well, if the main argument is that inhalants are abundant, cheap, and light anyway, then you guys can always suggest to Styg to make them scarce, expensive, and heavy.

Never mind that the extra slot from the PSI head band has to be constantly re-inervated as well because you lose it as soon as you switch head gear and since you have to constantly switch between motion detection and head bands at the very least that slot is almost worthless.

This sounds like an oversight, and you will probably get Styg to fix it. So unless he intended it to be like this, I do not consider this a systemic drawback.

Innervation system is completely idiotic making your PSI pool go zero every damn time you just want to switch just a single ability.

You (and others) are saying above that inhalants are unnecessary tedium, and what I understand by that is that you do not think they add to the challenge or strategy. Now you are complaining that they are fully consumed when even a single ability is changed. That's a complaint in the opposite direction. Do they add challenge and strategy or not?

Anyway, some planning ahead solves this issue. And the requirement to plan ahead is what makes me like this new system better.

 

[Ol' Willy]

You probably never really changed abilities much then and used the same one or two combos over and over. Innervation system is completely idiotic making your PSI pool go zero every damn time you just want to switch just a single ability. Never mind that the extra slot from the PSI head band has to be constantly re-inervated as well because you lose it as soon as you switch head gear and since you have to constantly switch between motion detection and head bands at the very least that slot is almost worthless.
As to your problem, that is specific ONLY to SMGs. No other gun needs this and the real problem is that people are unwilling to use anything but SMG burst so your guys fault entirely. Copious use of grenades alone with Threepointer thrown in the mix noticably reduces the amount of repair kits and ammo. Never mind setting up some traps before hand helps as well.

- I changed abilities a lot. TC as a main tool of trade, but it's completely useless against robots and way less useful against critters. So it's a shuffling between TC, PK and various defensive abilities all the time. But as I said, inhalators stopped to be a problem shortly after Depot A. I changed my set-up almost before every fight, and the only abilities that never left my set up were Overload, Electrokinesis and Imprint, the rest four - situational.
- Didn't use extra slot. Seven slots were fine with me.
- Didn't use motion detection. Crawlers were fine with LoC and Imprint, mines made me suffer but eh? It wasn't my first run so I know where to expect them.
- Durability problem was present in my AR build on Hard. What traps - with zero stealth? Grenade spam is hardly an answer.

 

[Ol' Willy]

I might fiddle with plasma/electro guns though I've never found them useful.

High quality amplified Electroshock pistol with alfa-strike of Aimed Shot can kill 3-4 enemies easily; now realize that this pistol is considered "quiet". It also stuns robots. And the bolt always jumps on crit. With full-crit build Electro pistol is a weapon of mass destruction.

 

[Parabalus]

I might fiddle with plasma/electro guns though I've never found them useful.

High quality amplified Electroshock pistol with alfa-strike of Aimed Shot can kill 3-4 enemies easily; now realize that this pistol is considered "quiet". It also stuns robots. And the bolt always jumps on crit. With full-crit build Electro pistol is a weapon of mass destruction.

What damage numbers do you get on non-resistant enemies?

 

[Trashos]

his sounds like an oversight, and you will probably get Styg to fix it. So unless he intended it to be like this, I do not consider this a systemic drawback.

Now that I have thought about this some more, maybe it is not an oversight and we are just expected to consume inhalants very-very often. Which would make sense, as psi was traditionally the build with the most money. So I do not fucking know whether this was intended or not.

 

[Parabalus]

You (and others) are saying above that inhalants are unnecessary tedium, and what I understand by that is that you do not think they add to the challenge or strategy. Now you are complaining that they are fully consumed when even a single ability is changed. That's a complaint in the opposite direction. Do they add challenge and strategy or not?

You have essentially infinite inhalants, but have to endure watching the animation if you change something. Similar to resting in BG? It works against innervating, at least for me.
They don't even weigh a lot.

his sounds like an oversight, and you will probably get Styg to fix it. So unless he intended it to be like this, I do not consider this a systemic drawback.

Now that I have thought about this some more, maybe it is not an oversight and we are just expected to consume inhalants very-very often. Which would make sense, as psi was traditionally the build with the most money. So I do not fucking know whether this was intended or not.

It's intended, as otherwise how would it work? You unequip it, you lose it.

There's no shortage of other bad optional enhancements anyway.

 

[Sykar]

Well, if the main argument is that inhalants are abundant, cheap, and light anyway, then you guys can always suggest to Styg to make them scarce, expensive, and heavy.

Never mind that the extra slot from the PSI head band has to be constantly re-inervated as well because you lose it as soon as you switch head gear and since you have to constantly switch between motion detection and head bands at the very least that slot is almost worthless.

This sounds like an oversight, and you will probably get Styg to fix it. So unless he intended it to be like this, I do not consider this a systemic drawback.

Innervation system is completely idiotic making your PSI pool go zero every damn time you just want to switch just a single ability.

You (and others) are saying above that inhalants are unnecessary tedium, and what I understand by that is that you do not think they add to the challenge or strategy. Now you are complaining that they are fully consumed when even a single ability is changed. That's a complaint in the opposite direction. Do they add challenge and strategy or not?

Anyway, some planning ahead solves this issue. And the requirement to plan ahead is what makes me like this new system better.

What it changes is that people now tend to focus on one specific setup spamming the same abilities over and over. That you think losing your entirel PSI pool by merely switching out one ability is reasonable is beyond stupid it is like losing all the ammo in your magazine just because you switched to armor piercing bullets. As to difficulty, it changes nothing just more tedium and money drain which just means you sell more junk or invest into money feat(s). I repeat it changes nothing in terms of difficulty it only adds more tedium. What the hell is so difficult on pressing P, chose your abilities and push the button for inhalant? Nothing. Not an ounce of diffiluty added. What made a real difference where the nerfs to Berserk and LoC for example.
As to "oversight" the current patch has not been changed in what 2 months? 3 months? At this point I find it hard to believe that anything will change much any time soon.

 

[Trashos]

It's intended, as otherwise how would it work?

Yes, you are probably right.

As to difficulty, it changes nothing just more tedium and money drain

Well, if it is a money drain then it adds to the difficulty. Psi had the fattest purse, it was time to even the field a little bit.

What it changes is that people now tend to focus on one specific setup spamming the same abilities over and over.

I do not believe that this is the intention, and I believe that you will all get the intention eventually. The way I see it, the intention is that you should be using inhalants. If you 'd rather save money than doing that (or doing some serious planning ahead), then that is up to you.

 

[Trashos]

Here is the deal with the hat: I initially thought of Kingmaker, where +INT hats give more spell slots, which you lose if you take the hat off, but you get them back intact when you put your hat back on.

But that is probably not the intention here. The intention here, assuming that the current design was intended (which we agree that it probably was), is for the hat to be situational, and you have to burn an inhalant every time you want to use it. So it is a different intention.

 

[Sykar]

There are already several strong choices for PSI headbands competing with each other and you throw in one that is at best situational and most of the time outright worse and you think that can be excused. Just no comment, what you people let Styg get away with is unbelievable. Here is a hint, there was nothing wrong with PSI inherently. Maybe, just maybe there was someting wrong with SMGs but hey do continue to believe that suddenly bringing in a hamfisted D&D solution that did nothing but add more tedium is a "good" solution.
Of course Sty could have increased biology skill demands on PSI booster crafting, add in a rare resource and make them more expensive in the stores. Woaah, genius solution! Or just nerf the standard PSI booster to 50 points restored and introduce more PSI booster types similar to health hypos which restore more. Man this is just SO difficult!
Here is another idea, instead of lazily hand out the most powerful PSI abilities like Berserk or Destabalization on relatively cheap mentors, find trainers in dangerous and hidden areas and make them give you some perilious quests chains!
I am sure this would have been SO much more difficult to implement that what we got now. /sarcasm

 

[Trashos]

The hat can be pretty strong if you REALLY need that extra slot for one fight or you are about to go somewhere where you do not have to change hats. It looks fine to me.

With all due respect, your various arguments are extremely conflicting with each other. You are frustrated, calm the fuck down.

 

[Trashos]

Case in point.

 

[Sykar]

Yes clicking the button is so hard and is only done when you are frustrated.
Dumbfuck

 

[Ol' Willy]

What the hell is so difficult on pressing P, chose your abilities and push the button for inhalant? Nothing.

Setting up your spell arsenal is what matters. Countless times I entered the fight, got slaughtered, reloaded, changed some spells and went back to fight - to succeed.

Pre-nerf, as I understand, you just waltzed in and unleashed all your arsenal regardless of the enemy type.