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Underrail: The Incline Awakens

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
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Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
What damage numbers do you get on non-resistant enemies?
Don't remember but I may check it once I get back home if you are really interested. But usually, first target rarely survived the initial shot (hence I almost forgot about possible stun ability of the bolt), the other recipients either died right there or went badly wounded.
 

CHEMS

Scholar
Joined
Nov 17, 2020
Messages
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Raided all the abandoned waterway facility only to find out that i somehow made Core City hostile stealing the jet :negative: this has to happened when the fucking drag n drop finally spawns :negative:
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,442
The hat can be pretty strong if you REALLY need that extra slot for one fight or you are about to go somewhere where you do not have to change hats. It looks fine to me.

With all due respect, your various arguments are extremely conflicting with each other. You are frustrated, calm the fuck down.

Tbf the extra slot is just very bad. It would make more sense if you got more slots depending on its quality, not a flat +1.

The other 3 generic upgrades are all much better, and expedition added spell specific upgrades as well, so there's pmuch never a situation where you want that one more spell.

What it changes is that people now tend to focus on one specific setup spamming the same abilities over and over. That you think losing your entirel PSI pool by merely switching out one ability is reasonable is beyond stupid it is like losing all the ammo in your magazine just because you switched to armor piercing bullets. As to difficulty, it changes nothing just more tedium and money drain which just means you sell more junk or invest into money feat(s). I repeat it changes nothing in terms of difficulty it only adds more tedium. What the hell is so difficult on pressing P, chose your abilities and push the button for inhalant? Nothing. Not an ounce of diffiluty added. What made a real difference where the nerfs to Berserk and LoC for example.

I agree with you, if he wanted to add more money dumps to psi the cost of inhalants and hypos could have been increased instead.

The current system does gate changing spells behind "gee, do I really want to watch this animation again?", which is surprisingly effective though.

The focus on one spell is not strictly negative though, it's just different. It makes it more similar to other builds, where you have one main thing going on, and several side things you switch to when the main one is ineffective. It also makes certain feats more valuable.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Extra PSI slots should have been available through feats and/or specialization points. Trade damage for flexibility is a fine choice. Trading flexibility for less damage AND a lot more tedium? Fuck off.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,442
Extra PSI slots should have been available through feats and/or specialization points. Trade damage for flexibility is a fine choice. Trading flexibility for less damage AND a lot more tedium? Fuck off.

There is some of that in attributes - since you have to either give up CON or WILL to get the INT slots, which drops damage directly.

A feat or spec points would be way too easy.
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,711
Location
Secret Level
I do not believe that this is the intention, and I believe that you will all get the intention eventually. The way I see it, the intention is that you should be using inhalants. If you 'd rather save money than doing that (or doing some serious planning ahead), then that is up to you.
Doesn't matter what the intention was. I wasn't swapping psi abilities not because of inhalants, but because it makes no sense to change the powerful abilities for weaker ones. It's the psi slots that are the limiting factor. But this limitation doesn't impact difficulty, because it's not like you cannot handle combat by spamming the same few spells over and over again.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
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Messages
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Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
Doesn't matter what the intention was. I wasn't swapping psi abilities not because of inhalants, but because it makes no sense to change the powerful abilities for weaker ones. It's the psi slots that are the limiting factor. But this limitation doesn't impact difficulty, because it's not like you cannot handle combat by spamming the same few spells over and over again.
You went through the entire game without changing the spells much? Share the combos you were using, I'm curious.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
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Messages
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Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
I know my build was the only one actually doing both ranged and melee through the whole game.
I'm going to challenge you here, matey! As soon I started to use knives the gameplay greatly improved. For a start I silently dispatch any stragglers with the knife. Place some traps if necessary, start with a grenade - shoot and kite, if anyone comes close - it's chopping time! This becomes one of my favourite builds right know as it offers stealthy kills, ranged options and good shanking all in one package.

Also I'm glad I started this one on oddity, being underleveled ramps up the challenge.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Doesn't matter what the intention was. I wasn't swapping psi abilities not because of inhalants, but because it makes no sense to change the powerful abilities for weaker ones. It's the psi slots that are the limiting factor. But this limitation doesn't impact difficulty, because it's not like you cannot handle combat by spamming the same few spells over and over again.
You went through the entire game without changing the spells much? Share the combos you were using, I'm curious.

My god literally just take a peek at the UR forums:
https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=6116.0
https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=6109.0
https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=4149.msg23828#msg23828

Combat in the New Psi, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love Metathermics
Metathermics is currently the best school of psi to play if you want to get through combats with the greatest psi efficiency. You only need 3 abilities to make this work (though I'd recommend 4), and in the entire game, there are only five fights that are highly resistant to this school (counting all native invasions as one, for purposes of grouping, even though certainly depending on how you play there may be several invasions). Psychokinesis and Thought Control are viable primaries as well. Temporal Manipulation, while technically possible, is not an ideal choice as a primary due largely to the need to cast many spells quickly to get the most out of its main damage spell.

ThermoD was "nerfed" in a most curious way, this patch. It does less damage, but its damage mechanism wasn't changed, so it still scales out of control if you can group up enemies. It also requires fewer Action Points to use, making it reasonable for use without Premeditation. This leads to an inescapable conclusion.

Innervate Cryokinesis, Thermodynamic Destabilization, Pyrokinesis, and Pyrokinetic Stream. Find a chokepoint, and lay down as many bear traps as necessary to make yourself safe. Now, make some noise; you might use a grenade, or perhaps you'd like to carry around a firearm. In any event, what you want is to gather enemies up, which the AI will gladly do. At this point, you should
Place ThermoD on the highest health enemy you can easily kill and which is near the middle of the group (5-10 AP, 30 base psi cost)
Cast Cryokinesis on the target most likely to survive the explosion (7-10AP with unspecced Thermodynamicity, 15 base psi cost)
Throw a grenade (15 AP)
and if necessary,
Premeditate a Pyrokinesis (0 AP, 20 base psi cost with unspecced Premeditation)
After the explosion, as needed
Cast Cryokinesis (7-10AP, 15 base psi) on any stubborn survivors and if you like
Throw another grenade, or
Cast Pyrokinetic Stream.

Congratulations! You have mastered New Psi!

If you would prefer a more classic Psychosis approach, then Innervate Cryokinetic Orb, ThermoD, Cryokinesis, and Pyrokinesis, and after you've acquired a group as you prefer,
Premeditate + Psionic Mania + Cryokinetic Orb (0 AP, 30 base psi cost) and if anything survives
Cast Thermodynamic Destabilization (5 AP with unspecced Thermodynamicity, 36 base cost) and either
Throw a grenade (15 AP) or
Cast Cryokinesis (10 AP w/unspecced Thermodynamicity, 17 base cost) on a secondary target if needed, then end with
Pyrokinesis (17 AP, 48 base cost) or
Throw a grenade.

Congratulations! You have mastered New Psi!

In the event you're dealing with highly flame-resistant enemies, I would suggest:
If dealing with robots, throw a grenade (EMP, plasma, or both)
If dealing with Bladelings like during the Beast fight, then after you've laid down a lot of traps, you should throw grenades down into the kill zone - gas grenades and HE are a great combo, and as the gas debuff ticks on them, even incendiary grenades will do damage.
If dealing with heavily armored enemies, then you should throw a grenade or two to augment your ThermoD damage.

Of course, you don't need to use Metathermics at all. Other builds will also be viable.

For Psychokinesis builds, you'll be working with a lot of stuns. Your psi will do very heavy point damage but not much AoE damage, so you should probably throw some grenades to clear up the weaker enemies while you Innervate and use Proxy + Punch/Implosion and Electrokinesis + Electro Trap. I'd recommend something like:
Lay down traps to create a chokepoint, and make some noise. When the enemy comes running,
TK Proxy (5-10AP, 15 base cost)
Force Punch on a hard target (5-10 AP, 50 base psi cost) then
Premeditate an Electrokinesis (0 AP, 18 base psi cost) to get an additional stun. Then you should probably
Throw a grenade (15 AP) to kill off weaker enemies, and if necessary
Throw another grenade to incapacitate any survivors. At this point you've probably burned through most of your psi pool, so probably take a booster and end the turn. On the following turn, clean up by
Moving the Proxy (5-10AP, 15 base cost) and/or
Electrokinesis (25-30AP, 35 base psi cost). If there are still survivors, you may want to escape LoS so that next turn, thanks to Grenadier, you can
Throw a grenade to clean up what's left.

Congratulations! You have mastered New Psi!

Similarly, Thought Control is still quite viable. You'll only need to Innervate two abilities: Enrage and Neural Overload. Anything else will be QoL. For easier fights against groups of organics, you may want to just
Lay down as many traps as needed to create a chokepoint, make some noise, and
Premed + LoC + (Psionic Mania if Psychosis +)Neural Overload (0 AP, 7 (9) base psi cost) then if anything survives,
Throw a grenade (15AP).

For harder fights against living targets, it might be wise to
Create chokepoint as before,
Premed + LoC + Enrage (0 AP, 25/30 base psi cost) and then
Throw a grenade (15AP) to get some damage down. Keep out of LOS, so you aren't targeted by the enraged enemies, and when enrage drops,
Throw a grenade (15AP) thanks to Grenadier, and if needed,
Throw another grenade (15AP) and/or
Cast Neural Overload (13/18 base AP, 15/18 base psi cost)

Congratulations! You have mastered New Psi!

Even Temporal Manipulation should be possible on any difficulty, though it'll be a good bit more expensive in inhalers and psi boosters over the course of a game. Innervate Temporal Distortion and Entropic Recurrence, as well as Limited Temporal Increment and Psychotemporal Contraction. TD really requires that it be cast a lot of times in quick succession, and preferably on large groups to get the best effect from Continuum Ripple, so Tranquility is really the only good choice for a TM primary build. Probably the most efficient TM cycle would be:
Lay down as many traps as necessary to create a safe chokepoint. Make some noise to gather a group, then
Throw a grenade (15AP) to put some damage on the enemy then
Throw another grenade (15AP) to incapacitate them if organic or stun if robotic. End the turn.
Stack as many TDs as possible on one target and end the turn.
Stack as many TDs as possible on the same target (or another, if you're doing weak group cleanup and would rather Ripple than use more grenades) and get out of LoS/get your shield up. On the following turn,
Throw a grenade (15AP) and, if you've got a strong enemy causing you trouble,
Entropic Recurrence (5AP, 15 base psi cost) to echo that heavy grenade damage. From here on out it's just a matter of playing keep away until your TDs / ER ticks wear them down.

Congratulations! You have mastered New Psi!

This is what it boils now down too unless you want to try really hard and constantly switch powers but by an large it is faster and more optimal to have a setup and only rarely change it. Also the really op shit was left untouched ARs still dominating harder and far easier than PSI ever could but hey continue to suck Styg`s cock.
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,711
Location
Secret Level
You went through the entire game without changing the spells much? Share the combos you were using, I'm curious.
On that psi I got as far as the arena, before I got bored.It was tranquility metathermics with temporal for support, so cryostasis, cryokinesis & pyrostream (which seemed to be bugged with thermodynamicity, or I can't do math on how much it was supposed to cost). Used emps for robots, but admittedly I tend to use grenades even with zero throwing. :P From temporal it was distortion and limited temporal increment. I actually forgot what else was on that psi bar.

That said, I'd not recommend the above. Temporal just doesn't work as well together with metathermics as psychokinesis does. But I've already played meta & psycho only a long time ago.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,442
I know my build was the only one actually doing both ranged and melee through the whole game.
I'm going to challenge you here, matey! As soon I started to use knives the gameplay greatly improved. For a start I silently dispatch any stragglers with the knife. Place some traps if necessary, start with a grenade - shoot and kite, if anyone comes close - it's chopping time! This becomes one of my favourite builds right know as it offers stealthy kills, ranged options and good shanking all in one package.

Also I'm glad I started this one on oddity, being underleveled ramps up the challenge.

Do you also use them later?

I found knives useful until post-Depot A. Afterwards only use of melee was spears on a jet.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
24,748
Location
Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
Do you also use them later?

I found knives useful until post-Depot A. Afterwards only use of melee was spears on a jet.
I've done all pre-Depot A, mapped Lower Caves, cleared Underpassages and now exploring Core City. I use knives even more than guns, despite me having a rather nice .44 LS Hammerer.

Also, I like how unique knives are actually useful. I have Kukri and Butcher's Cleaver, now I had to pay visit to Zaman to get his knife as well.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,442
Hmm, Aran just spawned in the Core City bar, without me getting the Acorn, just did the JSHQ. He says 'Not interested.' when trying to talk to him.

Wonder if you can whack him without turning the city hostile.

Do you also use them later?

I found knives useful until post-Depot A. Afterwards only use of melee was spears on a jet.
I've done all pre-Depot A, mapped Lower Caves, cleared Underpassages and now exploring Core City. I use knives even more than guns, despite me having a rather nice .44 LS Hammerer.

Also, I like how unique knives are actually useful. I have Kukri and Butcher's Cleaver, now I had to pay visit to Zaman to get his knife as well.

Ah, I used chem pistols. Probably the difference.
 
Last edited:

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,442
Hey, is there a way to hurt the psy-ghosts in the Serpentfolk tombs other than using thought control intro ability?

You can't even do it with that, since you can't target them directly, and LoC AoE NO does nothing. Torch also doesn't work.
 

CHEMS

Scholar
Joined
Nov 17, 2020
Messages
1,504
Hmm, Aran just spawned in the Core City bar, without me getting the Acorn, just did the JSHQ. He says 'Not interested.' when trying to talk to him.

Wonder if you can whack him without turning the city hostile.

You can, if you don't give him the Acorn. Too bad his corpse will be stinking up your home basement forever.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,442
Hmm, Aran just spawned in the Core City bar, without me getting the Acorn, just did the JSHQ. He says 'Not interested.' when trying to talk to him.

Wonder if you can whack him without turning the city hostile.

You can, if you don't give him the Acorn. Too bad his corpse will be stinking up your home basement forever.

But that's just normal sequence.

I didn't know he's there even before you have the Acorn.
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
I do not believe that this is the intention, and I believe that you will all get the intention eventually. The way I see it, the intention is that you should be using inhalants. If you 'd rather save money than doing that (or doing some serious planning ahead), then that is up to you.
Doesn't matter what the intention was. I wasn't swapping psi abilities not because of inhalants, but because it makes no sense to change the powerful abilities for weaker ones. It's the psi slots that are the limiting factor. But this limitation doesn't impact difficulty, because it's not like you cannot handle combat by spamming the same few spells over and over again.

I have conceded from the start that some weak abilities need looking into. But there are enough strong abilities for changes, unless you do not want to be changing. (and heck, if you people want to be using grenades/traps, the game can be ironmanned by very experienced players without psi too).

I am doing my 1st playthrough with it, and I change abilities at a regular pace (although not all the time). For example, if I am facing many robots I make sure I have my Psychokinesis abilities up. If I want stealtlh kills or am facing biological opponents with high mechanical resistance, I have TC up. TM is always up. Metathermics is usually up, unless I need something else.

You can use a simpler setup I guess, but that is up to you.

Tbf the extra slot is just very bad.

That's 2 points of INT right there. I wouldn't call it bad. If 2 points of INT are not that good, we have different issues.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,442
That's 2 points of INT right there. I wouldn't call it bad. If 2 points of INT are not that good, we have different issues.

Eh, what do you mean by 2 points of INT?
You don't get two points of INT with the headband, just a small part of INTs benefit.

Realistically you will decide whether to sacrifice WILL or CON for INT if you need more slots, since the headband slot sucks so much.
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
Well, I can see in various builds that some people are suddenly going up to 12 INT. So apparently they value the extra slot.

Generally, if we want to have a serious conversation about it, we need to distinguish between systemic problems (of the new system) and balancing issues. Two very different beasts. To make my position clear, I am not necessarily claiming that balancing is perfect. I just saw the new system and cannot make such claims. My claim is that I like it as a system.
 

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