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CD Projekt's Cyberpunk 2077 Update 2.0 + Phantom Liberty Expansion Thread

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
looks like some half ass deepfake, must be the worst one among these cameos.
The only worse thing than how she looks is what she has done with voicing the character. Bad writing, no direction.

Why should they? Do you think they care about maintaining good relations with gamers anymore?
It's not even about caring about reputation or not caring. They can't afford to invest the time into working on stuff which gets noticed by a small percentage of players. It also makes no business sense - restoring cut interactions with fixers won't tilt virtually anyone who is on the fence towards buying the game, so why do it.

Fixing the police system, enriching the "GTA Clone" within the trinity of games composing CP77 (Deus Ex + On Rails Story/Witcher With Guns + Cyber GTA), which is what the mouthbreather audience and media are most vocal about seems most likely to receive attention in terms of adding functionality.

It's been well established in the history of RPGs that the details we appreciate them for are almost always snuck into the game by an enthusiastic developer and aren't central or even planned features. In CP77 the ship has sailed for inserting such features.
 

gurugeorge

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Strap Yourselves In
No, it's not Fallout 3 follow-the-father schtick. One ending is Johnny's. Otherwise he's a primary character but not the protagonist.

Formally, yes, but Johnny's story is arguably more interesting overall, and certainly more detailed. Plus there's really only one "happy" ending for V
(+Panam & Judy, off into the sunset),
all the rest are pretty shit
(unless you count the possibility of immortality somewhere down the line if you take the deal from Takemura/Helmann in the Arasaka ending).
.

I mean, essentially, what Vik tells you after the Heist is the real basic truth of the thing
in that in most of the endings the construct wins and takes over in the end, unless you commit suicide in various possible ways. If one is being ultra-paranoid, all that nicey-nice with Johnny is just the construct's subtle way of inveigling you into surrendering :)
 

Mortmal

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Jun 15, 2009
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9,182
So I'm right before the point of no return ending quest and I'm running around finishing all the yellow gigs and side jobs first. I've played the entire game using stealth and pistols, and yet my stealth and pistols levels are around 17 each. Considering how close I am to the end, I guess you'd have to do all the blue police shit too in order to max them out for the endgame, which really makes those level 20 only perks pointless. Note I'm not talking about a reflexes level 20, but the handgun "level up when you use it" level. Anyway... those level 20 perks seem awesome but they also seem pointless given what it takes to get to them. You'll be at the end and an indestructible god by the time you use them.
Yes by the end you are an indestructible god, the game ending was extremely easy since all the gear and every usefull skills are maxed. Still was a good game with a great story.
 

typical user

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Nov 30, 2015
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957
Wish the choice of an ending was more obscure instead of "pick your own poison" list.
  • Arasaka ending - if you use corpo lines more often than other
  • Panam ending - if you use nomad lines
  • Casino heist ending - if you use streetkid/anti-corp lines

Only the secret ending is actually buried in your choices. Who doesn't want to play through quests with Panam or any side-quests when they are better quality than fixer contracts?
 

Danikas

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Jun 15, 2017
Messages
1,605
So I'm right before the point of no return ending quest and I'm running around finishing all the yellow gigs and side jobs first. I've played the entire game using stealth and pistols, and yet my stealth and pistols levels are around 17 each. Considering how close I am to the end, I guess you'd have to do all the blue police shit too in order to max them out for the endgame, which really makes those level 20 only perks pointless. Note I'm not talking about a reflexes level 20, but the handgun "level up when you use it" level. Anyway... those level 20 perks seem awesome but they also seem pointless given what it takes to get to them. You'll be at the end and an indestructible god by the time you use them.
I think skill and lvl wise the progression system is pretty good you need to put a bit of work to get op, street cred however is earned too fast I did only like 50% of gigs at the moment and Im lvl 26 but my street cred is 50...


On the other hand did anyone here let negromancers live? I fucked them over the first chance I got lady negress got fried by netwatch and Placide got his head shot off for trying to fuck me over. Funny how Alt asks me do I believe in netwatch propaganda that calls her the devil but then says that I will loose my soul if she helps me...
 
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DeepOcean

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Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,395
Johnny's story is actually pretty good, and the interaction with him turns out to be more complex and interesting than one thinks it's going to be at the beginning. Good stuff.
I like Johnny and the interactions with his band and etc but not in the way it was inserted on the main storyline with that relic Mcguffin. It is a question of space, you know, you spend alot of time building a relationship with Jackie, Judy, Panam and Goro then you spend time with Silverhand and his crew and the two sides of the game dont communicate much. In the end, you dont spend enough time with any of them as the game tries to do the two stories and doesnt invest enough time on any of the two. Silverhand for example doesnt comment much on your relationship with Panam, Judy or the other characters.

Because there is no space for those other characters, most of them dont evolve on their own, River barely develops beyond the good cop on a corrupt system cliche, Panam is also a walking stereotype, Judy is okay at best. Goro is really good because his discomfort with being on a position he isnt used to be and is interesing because he is challenged and that creates a conflict in him because the people he trusted betrayed him and the one that is helping was a lowly thief on his eyes. The other characters suffer because of a lack of serious internal conflict and that happens because the game doesnt properly invest on them. Is it because River is a bad character? Is Panam bad? He didnt have enough time to actually grow, Panam never faces any serious setback or is challenged on any serious way, Judy is never challenged to get out of her eternal mopey attitude.

Johnny is the only character that actually has a developed story arc where he tries to compensate for his mistakes, that scene on Pistis Sophia and on his burial site are the turning points for his character and some of the best scenes of the game. However, it isnt nowhere as powerful as the Red Baron stuff on Witcher because the game just fly through those relationships. Kerry and Rogue in particular, they have ALOT of unfinished business with Silverhand, accept you way too quickly without some serious fight back and he doesnt need to take much effort to sort of heal those relationships. Actually, CDPR wasnt wise in using Keanu Reeves the way they did, instead of wasting so much time with him doing some short commentary on each side quest you do what isnt a great deal, they should have used him more on those relationships that the game delegates as secondary quests and that was a big mistake.

Because the game also wastes alot of time with Johnny, pretty much with exception of Panam in the end and Takemura on the Arasaka ending, the other characters you met that are actually on your timeline are really disconnected from the main plot, actually, Johnny's characters are also disconnected from the main plot. I still think they should have gone with V's storyline or Johnny's storyline, Johnny has a cool development but he deserved his own story on a DLC or something like that not in the main game.

It was a marketing decision from CDPR that makes sense marketing wise but it didnt make sense quality wise.
 
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Naraya

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Several pages ago someone mentioned that you can walk in and around Arasaka compound while wearing Arasaka environmental suit. Well this is not the case for me, they shoot me on sight.
 

Tyrr

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Jun 25, 2020
Messages
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So I'm right before the point of no return ending quest and I'm running around finishing all the yellow gigs and side jobs first. I've played the entire game using stealth and pistols, and yet my stealth and pistols levels are around 17 each. Considering how close I am to the end, I guess you'd have to do all the blue police shit too in order to max them out for the endgame, which really makes those level 20 only perks pointless. Note I'm not talking about a reflexes level 20, but the handgun "level up when you use it" level. Anyway... those level 20 perks seem awesome but they also seem pointless given what it takes to get to them. You'll be at the end and an indestructible god by the time you use them.
Yes by the end you are an indestructible god, the game ending was extremely easy since all the gear and every usefull skills are maxed. Still was a good game with a great story.
The final quest seems to be balanced around only doing the main quest & important side missions. In my first run I only did very few fixer stuff and it still went grey.
As much as I hate level scaling, it's impossible to balance a open world game like this without it.
 

hivemind

Cipher
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Several pages ago someone mentioned that you can walk in and around Arasaka compound while wearing Arasaka environmental suit. Well this is not the case for me, they shoot me on sight.
all the gear has to be arasaka as well
just trust bro

btw you can lick your elbow if you close on of your eyes too
 

Tyrr

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Jun 25, 2020
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2,308
As much as I hate level scaling, it's impossible to balance a open world game like this without it.

No levels, no need for scaling.
Levels are just an abstract number to measure the power of a character. As long as doing side stuff increases the power of the player (even just by getting better equipment), you can't balance the game for both types of players who do everything vs. just the main quest.
You can balance it for one type of player, but then the other type will call it too easy (like Cyberpunk) or too grindy (like Assassin's Creed Valhalla).
 

copebot

Learned
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Dec 27, 2020
Messages
387
So I'm right before the point of no return ending quest and I'm running around finishing all the yellow gigs and side jobs first. I've played the entire game using stealth and pistols, and yet my stealth and pistols levels are around 17 each. Considering how close I am to the end, I guess you'd have to do all the blue police shit too in order to max them out for the endgame, which really makes those level 20 only perks pointless. Note I'm not talking about a reflexes level 20, but the handgun "level up when you use it" level. Anyway... those level 20 perks seem awesome but they also seem pointless given what it takes to get to them. You'll be at the end and an indestructible god by the time you use them.
Yes by the end you are an indestructible god, the game ending was extremely easy since all the gear and every usefull skills are maxed. Still was a good game with a great story.
The final quest seems to be balanced around only doing the main quest & important side missions. In my first run I only did very few fixer stuff and it still went grey.
As much as I hate level scaling, it's impossible to balance a open world game like this without it.

It seems like the game was developed around the assumption that there would be a Witcher 3 style heavy scaling feature. It wouldn't be surprising if that were the case, and that they just never implemented it. Level scaling is necessary if your game system and encounter design has no actual progression. In this game, all of the encounters are the same with the same enemy types from level 1 through 50. There is even a (good) side quest in which you go through the tutorial apartment 'dungeon' again with the same enemy types, but with more of them and in a more challenging scenario because you start with no equipment. Games like this should not have leveling systems, but they probably put them in anyway so there is a 'reason' to explore the map and consoom the content. None of the DX games have level systems even though they have character progression. As it is, there's level scaling, but it stops pretty early. The opening areas scale to whatever level a ~400ish dps weapon is, and don't scale past that. At max level, your gear will generally do 2-3k+ dps on the tooltip, but you will headshot crit for 10s of 10000s of damage. Even the toughest enemies are likely to have mid to high hundreds of HP.

It's like a D&Dlike in which you can level to 16-20, but all the enemies are goblins, forever. Even the enemies that are supposed to be legendary elite cyborgs can be killed by you in the equivalent of one round. There is no way that they did not know about these issues but obviously just getting the game functional enough to ship was the only thing that mattered. The cutscene part of the game was the priority and the game part was an afterthought that was probably in some kind of weird 'agile' hell of constant redevelopment for no reason.

There's a lot that's cool that could be done with an RPG in this setting, but I think making it an GTA-Asscreed was just setting itself up for disappointment. Something like a Cyberpunk Battle Brothers would be awesome, or a (2D) Cyberpunk Fallout for something more story based. Even Invisible Inc. has more compelling and balanced tactical gameplay in a Cyberpunk style setting. This type of title just does not play into the strengths of gaming as a medium. If you wanted to watch a movie or read a novel, real movies and real novels of even average quality are way better than the best storyfag game ever made. Game-movies are just really slow assed movies with bad games attached to them.
 
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Jun 13, 2019
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638
FEAR's AI is better than every FPS I've played since. I don't understand why they don't just outsource that AI. Lazy devs can buy it and modify it slightly.

I don't know how game AI works, so it was probably heavily scripted to only work in the limited and confined spaces of FEAR's level design, but it's still really impressive.

Why do people parrot FEAR AI being good? They'll enter the room together but once you start blasting them from cover all they do is fart lines about enemy locations while dying one after another like lemmings.
 

orcinator

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Republic of Kongou
As much as I hate level scaling, it's impossible to balance a open world game like this without it.

No levels, no need for scaling.
Levels are just an abstract number to measure the power of a character. As long as doing side stuff increases the power of the player (even just by getting better equipment), you can't balance the game for both types of players who do everything vs. just the main quest.
You can balance it for one type of player, but then the other type will call it too easy (like Cyberpunk) or too grindy (like Assassin's Creed Valhalla).

You know older ubigames like Far Cry didn't always have arbitrary levels right?
 

Tyrr

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Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,308
As much as I hate level scaling, it's impossible to balance a open world game like this without it.

No levels, no need for scaling.
Levels are just an abstract number to measure the power of a character. As long as doing side stuff increases the power of the player (even just by getting better equipment), you can't balance the game for both types of players who do everything vs. just the main quest.
You can balance it for one type of player, but then the other type will call it too easy (like Cyberpunk) or too grindy (like Assassin's Creed Valhalla).

You know older ubigames like Far Cry didn't always have arbitrary levels right?
It's different in a pure skill based game without any RPG elements. But if your game has tons of (optional !) side stuff, that makes the player character stronger, you have to find a way to scale the games difficulty to the player characters power.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
638
Sadly, it's a straight toggle for the minimap. I leave job location turned on though because you can still track via the main map and it gives a direction, distance, and height indicator.

Cheers for advice on Mankind Divided. In lockdown again so have time to play slowly. Might even try Human Revolutions again as a warm up if I can find a way to rid it of that foul yellow filter the director's cut got stuck with.

The "yellow piss filter" is actually better and works better because the game was made with it in mind. Don't forget DX has a blue-gray piss filter also :lol:
 

orcinator

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Republic of Kongou
As much as I hate level scaling, it's impossible to balance a open world game like this without it.

No levels, no need for scaling.
Levels are just an abstract number to measure the power of a character. As long as doing side stuff increases the power of the player (even just by getting better equipment), you can't balance the game for both types of players who do everything vs. just the main quest.
You can balance it for one type of player, but then the other type will call it too easy (like Cyberpunk) or too grindy (like Assassin's Creed Valhalla).

You know older ubigames like Far Cry didn't always have arbitrary levels right?
It's different in a pure skill based game without any RPG elements. But if your game has tons of (optional !) side stuff, that makes the player character stronger, you have to find a way to scale the games difficulty to the player characters power.

Every Far Cry has 3 million optional outposts and a perk tree with a bunch of OP shit scattered throughout.
You gotta lay off that cargo cult mindset.
 

Yosharian

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May 28, 2018
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Grand Chien
CDPR want to tap into that Borderlands-esque shoot-kill-upgrade-shoot-kill-upgrade gameplay loop. That's why level scaling, for both items and enemies, is used. It has NOTHING to do with creating a good open world, and everything to do with trapping the player in a simple skinner box in order to maintain engagement.
 

DalekFlay

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New Vegas
Wish the choice of an ending was more obscure instead of "pick your own poison" list.
  • Arasaka ending - if you use corpo lines more often than other
  • Panam ending - if you use nomad lines
  • Casino heist ending - if you use streetkid/anti-corp lines

Only the secret ending is actually buried in your choices. Who doesn't want to play through quests with Panam or any side-quests when they are better quality than fixer contracts?

This wouldn't work because you'd be railroaded based on your chosen origin. It's perfectly reasonable for a betrayed corpo to want to burn it all down, for example. I do agree in general though that ALL games of this type should make the ending "choice" automatic based on your decisions and who you sided with/against. Would make those choices have SO much more weight. When games let you be an anarchist asshole the whole game and then choose to save the world and democracy at the end it's just so fucking stupid. New Vegas, as with all things, leads the way.
 

Tyrr

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,308
CDPR want to tap into that Borderlands-esque shoot-kill-upgrade-shoot-kill-upgrade gameplay loop. That's why level scaling, for both items and enemies, is used. It has NOTHING to do with creating a good open world, and everything to do with trapping the player in a simple skinner box in order to maintain engagement.
There is no lvl-scaling for enemies/quests. That's the problem.
Also, you don't need lvl-scaling in every open world game, just in open world games like Witcher 3, the new Assassin's Creed games or this one. I don't argue in favor of lvl-scaling (I prefer games that don't need it). But IF you design your game like Cyberpunk, you can't skip the lvl-scaling.
 

Zer0wing

Cipher
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
2,607
CDPR want to tap into that Borderlands-esque shoot-kill-upgrade-shoot-kill-upgrade gameplay loop. That's why level scaling, for both items and enemies, is used. It has NOTHING to do with creating a good open world, and everything to do with trapping the player in a simple skinner box in order to maintain engagement.
It hurts the single player part more than it does benefit the presumable Cyberpunk Online.
 

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