Help me find a JRPG....

[Ash]

I should also note I'm not a combatfag, I'm a gameplayfag. Combat is important but I have broader expectations.

Uhm, not to be sarcastic, but aren't most JRPG's all about combat and story? So if you're neither, you problaby won't find anything that you like?

In my OP I link to a post listing JRPGs I find to be acceptable to awesome. Examples:

Golden Sun 1 & 2: the gameplay is decent overall. Combat is rather average, but the level design with frequent puzzle design is excellent. Exploration in 2 is ramped up. RPG systems and resource management are unfortunately not that involved, but there's enough to personalize and strategize with, and some battles require good strategy. Some mini games also spice things up in interesting, worthwhile ways.

Final Fantasy....lets go with 8 this time: Combat is kinda lame, ruined by the weird ass broken RPG systems, however said RPG systems are still interesting; there's a fair amount of complexity between GF junctioning, magic junctioning, ability junctioning, GF learning progression paths etc. The card game is awesome. Level design like most 90s-era Final Fantasies is good as far as JRPGs go, with frequent puzzle elements (e.g Tomb of the Unknown King), unique challenges (e.g player-defined timer to find Ifrit) and secrets to find. Exploration is often rewarding. 90s era Final Fantasy games are legitimately notable to this gameplayfag, even if the combat is often lame (I recommend the respective hardtype mods for each game).

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night: platforming, combat, RPG systems, exploration, secrets, blah blah, I need not explain why this is a gameplayfag game, even if terribly balanced (again I recommend the hardtype mod).

Then of course there's say FFT, it is for the most part like you say just combat (+strategy in build choices ofc) and story. Luckily the combat is pretty good otherwise I would not like it. Generally I like a little more going on than just combat but I don't mind if it's ALL combat if it is executed spectacularly well, which is of course very rare.

 

[samuraigaiden]

Ash Have you played Lufia & the Fortress of Doom and Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals on the SNES? They have cool puzzles, an above average combat system for the era and the second one has a sort of giant rogue-like side quest called Ancient Cave, an optional randomly generated dungeon with 99 levels.

Still on the SNES, the biggest must play hidden gem of the 16-bit era, as far as Action RPGs are concerned at least, is the Quintet trilogy: Soul Blazer, Illusion of Gaia and Terranigma. These games are among the best Japanese Action RPGs of the 90s and its a damn shame most people never played them, especially Soul Blazer which gets skipped over often for being an early title on the system.

On the PS2, Dark Cloud 1 and 2 are beloved for their originality. Personally, I think the combat is kinda shit but there's definitely more gameplay than just combat and story exposition on these games.

If you like Dark Souls so much, you obviously should check out FromSoftware's earlier games, especially the King's Field series but not just that. While bizarre and clunky, games like Eternal Ring and Evergrace have enough FromSoftware nonsense in them to be appealing for Souls fans.

Lastly, I'd suggest you check out the Front Mission series (SNES, PS1, PS2, DS) if you like SRPGs and Shiren the Wanderer games for that Japanese Rogue like fix.

 

[Shackleton]

It's so obvious I can't believe it's not been mentioned. Probably because it's not a classical 'JRPG', but tell me you've played Dragon's Dogma?

If you haven't then go and do that straight away. If you have then good job, carry on.

 

[Ash]

Ash Have you played Lufia & the Fortress of Doom and Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals on the SNES? They have cool puzzles, an above average combat system for the era and the second one has a sort of giant rogue-like side quest called Ancient Cave, an optional randomly generated dungeon with 99 levels..

Yup I tried 2 i think it was because I heard it was the best. Or maybe it was 1 not sure now. I was impressed by the dungeon design (nice puzzles) and the combat was OK, but the RPG systems were very simplistic and the world design had zero soul. Extremely generic town -> dungeon -> travel to next generic town that is identical to the last -> another dungeon that follows the exact same template and themes as the last. That's all it was with little effort to mix it up in any way at all, gameplay or otherwise. No aesthetic diversity, no side quests, no unique challenges or mini games, not even some storyfaggoty to add something different to the experience. Between that and the weak RPG systems (and barebones RPG systems kind of kill an RPG for me all by itself) it kind of killed it for me. Too bad because the puzzle design was top tier from what I remember. Basically I consider it a proto-golden sun. Same formula but way more fleshed out.

I've played most From Soft games, even their butchery of the Tenchu series which I'm still mad about. Imo they were thoroughly mediocre until Souls.

I am aware Dark Cloud is supposed to be a classic but the art style is really quite gross upon first glance. still, I try to keep an open mind and not let things like that deter me from what may be a great game underneath.

I will check out those SNES ARPGs for sure, thanks.

It's so obvious I can't believe it's not been mentioned. Probably because it's not a classical 'JRPG', but tell me you've played Dragon's Dogma?

If you haven't then go and do that straight away. If you have then good job, carry on.

I only tried the demo but got triggered by the generic fantasy setting, soulless pawn system and I hate the climb big monster to fight gimmick out of principle (I hate Shadow of the Colossal Lack of Gameplay). But I'm well aware that is just initial impressions which can often be false/misrepresentative, and the game could be very worthwhile indeed, and it has a good rep on the cuckdex. I should perhaps give it another shot but I'm still triggered when i think of riding generic chimeras playing buddy adventures with those lifeless dolls. Nothing gameplay-wise stood out either. Seemed servicable: decent combat mechanics, decent level design, engaging enough rpg systems, but nothing new except dragon dildo riding.

 

[Shackleton]

It's so obvious I can't believe it's not been mentioned. Probably because it's not a classical 'JRPG', but tell me you've played Dragon's Dogma?

If you haven't then go and do that straight away. If you have then good job, carry on.

I only tried the demo but got triggered by the generic fantasy setting, soulless pawn system and I hate the climb big monster to fight gimmick out of principle (I hate Shadow of the Colossal Lack of Gameplay). But I'm well aware that is just initial impressions which can often be false/misrepresentative, and the game could be very worthwhile indeed, and it has a good rep on the cuckdex. I should perhaps give it another shot but I'm still triggered when i think of riding generic chimeras playing buddy adventures with those lifeless dolls. Nothing gameplay-wise stood out either. Seemed servicable: decent combat mechanics, decent level design, engaging enough rpg systems, but nothing new except dragon dildo riding.

Hmmm. I'm pretty surprised you've said this. You're one of the Codexers whose posts I always look out for, partly due to your fantastic work on GMDX and partly because I very rarely find myself disagreeing with your take on games. However this is most definitely one of those times. You say 'generic' fantasy, but I prefer 'classic'. Yes, it's got cyclops, chimera's, griffins and dragons etc, but these are the absolute best representations of them in any third-person RPG I have ever seen, with the possible exception of Witcher 3. The fighting of them however is leagues above Witcher 3. You talk about hating the climbing of them in principle but that's only 1 way to fight them that's available to only the rogue set of classes. The warrior, mage and ranger classes all play very differently and there's sub-classes in each archetype. The character development is both a blessing and a curse as the incentive to play through many classes to unlock their skills for use in any character build does tend to trigger people's min/max instincts and so they do retarded shit like play through the entire game as a class they don't like, just because it gives them the best stat growth and powers for a class they'll never actually play because they'll be burnt out on the game hours before

If you hate the pawn system though then that is something that'll bug you throughout the game unless you choose to push your pawn off a cliff and play solo, (viable option.) Personally, I love the equipping and customising an AI partner. You can tweak them just as much as your main character and although they do stupid stuff sometimes with proper training they're very useful. The repetitive dialogue is a bit of a meme yes, 'Wolves hunt in packs' etc etc, but it blends into the background after a while and raises the odd smile when they say bizarre stuff at odd times.

Compared to games of today it's got very little handholding and you can even *gasp* fail some quests, the story is entertaining if pretty generic hokum, but the main reason to play it is the combat, character building and exploration. One of the best semi-open world games before the glut of Ubisoft clones corrupted the market. I would very much suggest you give it another look and a proper try if you're in the mood for a lengthy open world, action RPG. Play until you get to Gransys at least and I think it'll grab you.

 

[Doktor Best]

So which one did you choose in the end? Because i have a feeling you need SMT in your life.

 

[Ialda]

I liked Popolocrois because Tom from Xseed did a lot of fan-translation work for the series but I lost interest when he started acting weird, just as soon as he bailed from the company. Charming art, the PSP compilation is playable for what it is, fairly average sprite-based JRPG carried by its art and character designs.

Speaking of Popolocrois... I've never played this series (I only know the anime sakuga wank-off), what is the best game and the best platform to try it out ?

 

[Ash]

Hmmm. I'm pretty surprised you've said this. You're one of the Codexers whose posts I always look out for, partly due to your fantastic work on GMDX and partly because I very rarely find myself disagreeing with your take on games. However this is most definitely one of those times..

Like I said, first impressions based on the demo and first impressions can be utterly wrong. I thought I made it clear that everything I said should be taken with a grain of salt because of this, nonetheless I was almost begging for someone who has played the game in full to tell me how I am wrong (or right). In the case of your counterpoints, most of them please me and inspire me to give the game another try.

So which one did you choose in the end? Because i have a feeling you need SMT in your life.

None just yet, just updated my .txt. I am leaning to SMT3 and that Koudelka sequel. I would like to hear more about some of the other games briefly mentioned (e.g samuraigaiden's SNES ARPGs, among others), but I can't ask too much and appreciate the responses so far.

 

[Ash]

OK, so I went with Shadow Hearts: Covenant (second successor to Koudelka, skipped shadow hearts 1 because everyone appears to say covenant is better).

I gave up 6 hours in. I liked it somewhat. very, very close to what I was looking for.

Gameplay:

-Level design in a gameplay context is OK, just about adequate. it's all a bit basic, but dungeons are based around attrition of resources, navigation and solving some puzzle, which is good. towns have a little bit of meaningful exploration, just enough to be passable.
-There are a few well done mini-games which add nice variety.
-There is some jank. for example in Paris you can't climb some stairs just because some kid is walking the opposite direction, even though there is clearly plenty room. there's a few standout instances of a lack of polish here and there, the finishing touches. It's not that important but it counts for something.
-Combat: Ring system is pretty cool addition to combat, really liked it. Sanity system was a bit pointless (which I hear is not an issue in the first game). Rewards for finishing a battle with efficiency is nice. Unfortunately, the game is rather easy which lets it down, though this is quite common with many RPGs and I can overlook it if everything else is so damn good.
-RPG systems: there's a fair bit of customisation, but it's all systems that are disjointed from one another and either barely matter (incremental additions to the ring attack field sizes), or are linear trees/barely relevant to gameplay and therefore not really choices at all (crest system, solomons ring). Why does the game even have elemental system? Never matters, spam any magic, spam any attack. Ignore everything else. Boss/enemy design does not demand strategy at all. The lack of difficulty is bad even by JRPG standards.

What else I didn't like: writing (possibly the highest levels of cringe I've ever witnessed), characters (except the dog and the German chick, but also hated many NPCs such as the gay french theatre fags), music (the music is actually at times nice to listen to, but so very rehashy unfortunately).
what else I did like: FMVs, westaboo setting, detailed non-anime art style.

Very close to what I was looking for...

At least I got this track out of it I guess:

 

[Poseidon00]

Legend of Mana on the PS1. There's just something distinctive about it in artstyle and story themes that you don't get anywhere else. I would recommend it highly. There is a lot of miss-able content though, that you never get any in-game hints about, so if that bothers you a world-building placement guide is probably necessary.

 

[Ash]

There's just something distinctive about it in artstyle and story themes that you don't get anywhere else.

OK that's cool and all but what about gameplay? did you read my conditions ITT?

I will look into the game though. I have been curious, thanks.

Edit: 1999 Squaresoft game. Between various FF of that era, Vagrant Story and Parasite Eve, this makes me hopeful.

 

[Poseidon00]

OK that's cool and all but what about gameplay? did you read my conditions ITT?

It's kinda hard to describe the gameplay. It's like a 2d fighter rpg where your fighting style is based on equipped weapon, the special abilities you have learned and equipped for it, and what other abilities you have learned through use, like counters, grapples, dodges, flips, etc. There is not really any equivalent that i've played.

I would also keep in mind that it is very, very nonlinear. There are nearly no mandatory quests, multiple main story paths to the ending, and if you find yourself with nowhere to go, just talk to people because something is bound to change or show up. It's very nice to actually play it without guides because of this.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Legend of Mana is a very unique game. Too bad it's way too easy, combat is pure button mashing as it's possible to stunlock everything with basic attacks.

Has a pretty crazy crafting system, you can just turn some ore into a weapon and call it a day, or you can get into the tempering system which is a very deep rabbit hole. Plus a whole monster taming and golem crafting system with a huge array of options. It's all overkill for the difficulty though

Anyway they just announced a remaster for June, maybe they'll tune it up a bit? Looks a little odd with HD backgrounds but still pixel sprites, basically it's the RSaga 3 treatment

 

[Poseidon00]

Legend of Mana is a very unique game. Too bad it's way too easy, combat is pure button mashing as it's possible to stunlock everything with basic attacks.

That is its biggest flaw, which is why I don't play without the mod that disables stunlocks on enemies. That and the in game nightmare mode make for a good enough challenge for me.

 

[Ash]

Link please?

 

[Hyperion]

writing (possibly the highest levels of cringe I've ever witnessed)

Really? I played it not that long ago on an emulator, I don't remember the writing taking itself seriously at any point. I'd say there were a few moments that were even laugh out loud funny, mostly the interactions between Joacim and The Great Gama. While it may not have been great, cringe seems a bit strong and evokes memories of Dante screaming over Trish's corpse in DMC1.

Unfortunately, the game is rather easy which lets it down, though this is quite common with many RPGs and I can overlook it if everything else is so damn good.

The game was balanced around occasional misses on the ring, so if you're good enough to get like 70%+ Perfects the game is easy. If you can do it with the Technical Ring, the game is absolutely a joke. But I will say, in the beginning especially, if enemies land a surprise attack on you, it'll fuck your day up for sure. I've gotten wiped with no chance of reacting a few times early on in the Sewers of France.

characters

Huh, I thought Karen was one of the weaker characters, but the Princess is by far the worst, even if they are self-aware with the token Loli character.

The elemental damage thing is basically the difference between dealing 75% of an enemy's HP, and killing them in one hit with an offensive spell in regular combat. Again, it all boils down to attrition and smart use of your spells to help reduce damage taken by not letting the monsters get a turn off. As for Solomon's Key, I look at it as less of a means of character development and more a fun little minigame you can complete that gives you a little bonus for solving those puzzles. It can make a pretty big difference when you start completing multiple areas and unlocking a bunch of bonus spells to outfit your Mages with every tier of the desired element, or the buffs which are very powerful, etc.

 

[Ash]

Really? I played it not that long ago on an emulator, I don't remember the writing taking itself seriously at any point.

It is pretty bad. Every event there was either WTF moments, inconsistencies, beta cuck perversion (including the pretender main character "Tough guy" getting on his knees in front of Karen in awe just because she changed outfit, gasping and talking about how he is "in paradise". How sad), and/or lame anime tropes. Still has a certain charm to it and yes, doesn't take itself seriously at all, but it was just offputting at times. OK maybe it's not the worst offender of all time but it got on my nerves more than a few times.

Yes I do like the solomon's ring, I like all of the systems taken alone, but it was just another system that wasn't providing actually meaningful C&C, rewarding progression and testing strategy. If there was some of that with solomon's ring on top, would be awesome.
I still do kind of have a small urge to continue my playthrough and see what happens next, but I never died once and didn't feel tested even by bosses (and I did face two ambushes, only time it came close to being testing).

 

[Shackleton]

Link please?

https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2085/

Relevant to my interests as well, might give this a spin once I've done with Nioh 2.

 

[Falksi]

OK, so I went with Shadow Hearts: Covenant (second successor to Koudelka, skipped shadow hearts 1 because everyone appears to say covenant is better).

I gave up 6 hours in. I liked it somewhat. very, very close to what I was looking for.

Gameplay:

-Level design in a gameplay context is OK, just about adequate. it's all a bit basic, but dungeons are based around attrition of resources, navigation and solving some puzzle, which is good. towns have a little bit of meaningful exploration, just enough to be passable.
-There are a few well done mini-games which add nice variety.
-There is some jank. for example in Paris you can't climb some stairs just because some kid is walking the opposite direction, even though there is clearly plenty room. there's a few standout instances of a lack of polish here and there, the finishing touches. It's not that important but it counts for something.
-Combat: Ring system is pretty cool addition to combat, really liked it. Sanity system was a bit pointless (which I hear is not an issue in the first game). Rewards for finishing a battle with efficiency is nice. Unfortunately, the game is rather easy which lets it down, though this is quite common with many RPGs and I can overlook it if everything else is so damn good.
-RPG systems: there's a fair bit of customisation, but it's all systems that are disjointed from one another and either barely matter (incremental additions to the ring attack field sizes), or are linear trees/barely relevant to gameplay and therefore not really choices at all (crest system, solomons ring). Why does the game even have elemental system? Never matters, spam any magic, spam any attack. Ignore everything else. Boss/enemy design does not demand strategy at all. The lack of difficulty is bad even by JRPG standards.

What else I didn't like: writing (possibly the highest levels of cringe I've ever witnessed), characters (except the dog and the German chick, but also hated many NPCs such as the gay french theatre fags), music (the music is actually at times nice to listen to, but so very rehashy unfortunately).
what else I did like: FMVs, westaboo setting, detailed non-anime art style.

Very close to what I was looking for...

At least I got this track out of it I guess:

That's literally as close as you're gonna get for what you're after.

The Last Remnant or Lost Odyssey are two other potential shouts, but neither have all the elements you want.

 

[Poseidon00]

Link please?

https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2085/

 

[jungl]

i find rpg romhacks to be useless. Changing numbers around doesn't change the game around.

 

[Ash]

Wut? Sometimes a few number changes is all that is needed.

would it be nice to have some massive overhauls, yes, but in the meantime that is very hard to do with hex hacking, and the main issue with numerous JRPGs is usually lack of difficulty wherein which shifting a few numbers is usually EXACTLY what is needed. There's a romhack for SotN that mostly simply doubles enemy HP to act as a hardmode and it completely bumps the game experience. AI actually get to go through attack routines in full, you actually see shit you never saw before because they don't die in two hits. Use of food consumption/inventory items actually becomes important. Bosses actually pose a threat. Yeah there's still the issue of an overpowered attack or two that could use more nuanced approach to fix, but it's way better than vanilla.

Edit: link: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2896/

 

[Poseidon00]

i find rpg romhacks to be useless. Changing numbers around doesn't change the game around.

The numbers aren't the issue so much as that the fighting was too easy because you could stun enemies with quick attacks. The hack doesn't change numbers so much as it makes the enemies faster and harder to dodge. A few bosses in this hack are a right bitch to win against and that's just the way I like it.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

It's funny that the challenge was such a common complaint someone actually tried to fix it.

 

[Poseidon00]

It's funny that the challenge was such a common complaint someone actually tried to fix it.

It's really the one thing that's missing. As you said, you can do so much in terms of customizing the attacks and A.I of your robots, leveling up pets you find from eggs, building an awesome grapple/counter build, but for what? You can cheese your way through everything in the vanilla game.